Texas takes legal custody of 401 kids in Warren Jeff's sect

[Christina]

I'm not sure if this (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/07/texas.ranch/index.html) is religion or politics but it seems to fit better here.

(CNN) -- Authorities said Monday they have taken legal custody of 401 children who lived on an isolated West Texas polygamist retreat built by imprisoned "prophet" Warren Jeffs.

The children are being kept at a temporary shelter at historic Fort Concho in nearby San Angelo while authorities investigate whether a child bride gave birth on the ranch at age 15.

The children in state custody are joined at the shelter by 133 women, most of them mothers, who were taken during the past few days from the sprawling Yearning for Zion ranch, said Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for the state's Child Protective Services agency.

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints bought the ranch four years ago and began erecting dormitories and a large, white temple. Hundreds of Jeffs' followers moved from Arizona and Utah as authorities there stepped up their investigations.

The name is taken from one of Jeffs' spiritual songs, "Yearning for Zion."

Authorities began blocking roads to the YFZ ranch Thursday, then raided the compound and began busing women and children off the property. Most were girls, and most wore hand-sewn prairie dresses.

Why is it that horny cult leaders area always putting the women in those prairie dresses? Is it just to create some fake illusion of purity?

[Notta_skeptic]

They also run off all their teenaged and 20-something boys, so the older men have plenty of young girls to choose from. Some of these boys are kicked out of the only home they have ever known, left in a nearby town with a token amount of money and all the belongings they can carry on their back, and no skills. Just because these "kids" are of age doesn't mean it isn't child abuse.

If a boy holds a girl's hand, or writes her a note, he's excommunicated. The old men want all the girls to themselves.

[Esocyn]

What the hell made these idiots think that they could come to Texas and do this? Do they not remember the Branch Davidians? If the state can't take the kids away, they'll kill them and then kill you.

[Loren Pechtel]

What the hell made these idiots think that they could come to Texas and do this? Do they not remember the Branch Davidians? If the state can't take the kids away, they'll kill them and then kill you.

They went to Texas because the law was closing in in Arizona and Utah.

[Athene]

They also run off all their teenaged and 20-something boys, so the older men have plenty of young girls to choose from. Some of these boys are kicked out of the only home they have ever known, left in a nearby town with a token amount of money and all the belongings they can carry on their back, and no skills. Just because these "kids" are of age doesn't mean it isn't child abuse.

If a boy holds a girl's hand, or writes her a note, he's excommunicated. The old men want all the girls to themselves.

Disgraceful, what is it with the fundamentalist mindset and it's complete disregard for the human rights of women?

[ninewands]

What the hell made these idiots think that they could come to Texas and do this? Do they not remember the Branch Davidians? If the state can't take the kids away, they'll kill them and then kill you.

They went to Texas because the law was closing in in Arizona and Utah.
They failed to notice that Texas is one of the 13 states that does NOT have a religious exception to child abuse/neglect laws. It's one of the few progressive things left in this state and I sure hope the legislature doesn't notice they failed to overturn it in their pandering to the fundies.

ETA: Lest we forget, it was Janet Reno and the FBI that screwed up the raid on the Branch Davidian compound, not the State of Texas.

[halii]

I'm worried about the women and kids, because like it or not, they are indoctrinated. It's going to be hard to leave the group, especially in this way when it wasn't a choice and warren jeff was pulled from them so quickly. In addition, I don't think the state (especially a state like texas) is going to be able to provide much funding for them to get out of this, and they are probably going to see their life as much better when warren jeffs was there (at least for awhile). So I hope they are able to break out of it instead of just reverting back and hating the outside world even more. I have more faith in the younger children than I have in the teens and young mothers.

[dancer_rnb]

They also run off all their teenaged and 20-something boys, so the older men have plenty of young girls to choose from. Some of these boys are kicked out of the only home they have ever known, left in a nearby town with a token amount of money and all the belongings they can carry on their back, and no skills. Just because these "kids" are of age doesn't mean it isn't child abuse.

If a boy holds a girl's hand, or writes her a note, he's excommunicated. The old men want all the girls to themselves.

Disgraceful, what is it with the fundamentalist mindset and it's complete disregard for the human rights of women?

And of young men.

[Christina]

@ Halii

I thought about that same thing when I was talking a lot to the cultists at the Hub. For the most part those young women and kids had no skills to fall back on to be able to support themselves in the real world. A few like Prudence and Julie got out and got themselves in school or found a job, but for the most part they've been programmed to hate and fear the world outside the cult. My mind started to run off in nonprofit mode about how there should be some sort of support network for people that want to get out of cults and weird religious sects, but I think that it would have to be run by theists. Going from a religious cult into an atheist environment is probably too big of a leap for them to make at first.

[halii]

It's a weird life as a young man. If you're perceptive you know you have 2 options: one, being treated like a king of your house and having your pick of at least 3 wives for yourself. The other, being dragged out one day for a bullshit reason and being left in the middle of an unfamiliar city with nothing and a warning to never ever come back. And often times if it doesn't happen to you it will happen to one of your brothers.

[dancer_rnb]

It's a weird life as a young man. If you're perceptive you know you have 2 options: one, being treated like a king of your house and having your pick of at least 3 wives for yourself. The other, being dragged out one day for a bullshit reason and being left in the middle of an unfamiliar city with nothing and a warning to never ever come back. And often times if it doesn't happen to you it will happen to one of your brothers.

It would be dependent on how well you can control your emotions.
And if you are willing to do that until you are old(er).

It is shitty all around except for those in a position of power.

[halii]

I think any of the males that aren't chased off are in a position of power, honestly. even if it's just over their wives, it's still significant.

[dancer_rnb]

I think any of the males that aren't chased off are in a position of power, honestly. even if it's just over their wives, it's still significant.

Once they have been allowed to marry.

How do the numbers work? Do they practice male infanticide or something?

[Christina]

What Halii describes is exactly how it was with the Travesser cult. All of the young men were chased off for one reason or another and the only teenage boy left is so young that his voice is still changing. Any man that resisted having his marriage dissolved once the leader wanted to sleep with his wife was pressured to leave also. The only men left are the ones with wives he doesn't want or too old or docile to act on sexual urges.

[dancer_rnb]

So they have to drive most of their male children out.

[AthenaAwakened]

Some of these children have greater problems than just being brainwashed.

Birth defect is plaguing children in FLDS towns (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635182923,00.html)

[meepmeep]

Some of these children have greater problems than just being brainwashed.

Birth defect is plaguing children in FLDS towns (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635182923,00.html)

That is really disturbing. :eek:

[Christina]

So they have to drive most of their male children out.

What is sounds like happened was that families with male children were told that they should leave the land unless they could stamp out all dissent and behavior problems in their families, as if anyone could raise children and never have an argument or harsh word against each other. There were also some stories about older children molesting younger ones that was all hushed up and some more families left. The only person allowed to have sexual relationships is the leader, so most of the women left are either already sleeping with him or too old for him to want, and most of the men seem resigned to handing over their wives and daughters. Some of the women that he's sleeping with are mother/daughter pairs.

[Goldie]

The show "Big Love" on HBO focuses on a man and his 3 wives (sister-wives) who have left a "compound" (FLDS) to live a secretive life in the suburbs, and his personal war with the "prophet"... and the old way of life.
It depicts the compound women dressed this way, subservient, with the old men taking young teens as their wives. It addresses kicking the young men out. It shows the prophet as basically corrupt and getting rich, while others on the compound have only what he provides.
it's an "interesting" show. When I saw the footage on the news, how the womn were dressed... "Big Love" came to mind.

I feel very sorry for these people. They have been taught that all of the outside world is "of the devil."
How frightened they must be. :(
ETA: Big Love has not even begun to go into the depths of the abuse thast goes on in these places, and really... it should.

[halii]

I read about it earlier from an article written by a former member (a woman). She had mentioned a lot of the boys were driven off around 14-16. They were always driven off for breaking a rule or not having the faith, and you know, the prophet hearing direct orders from god that he'd overthrow the whole group and was poison and all that jazz.

So they basically wait for the boy to make an error (however small) then overreact like hell to it and dispose of him. They use that small error to explain to everyone why it was necessary that he left.

The higher up men get to keep their favorite sons, probably unless there's a female shortage, and they will get handed wives as gifts for service and all that.

[Goldie]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/28/arts/television/28poly.html

A link re: big love ... I recomment reading both pages

[Bright Life]

Some of these children have greater problems than just being brainwashed.

Birth defect is plaguing children in FLDS towns (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635182923,00.html)

I wonder if this might eliminate them altogether?

[dancer_rnb]

Some of these children have greater problems than just being brainwashed.

Birth defect is plaguing children in FLDS towns (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635182923,00.html)

I wonder if this might eliminate them altogether?

That's real rough on the kids.

[Goldie]

Some of these children have greater problems than just being brainwashed.

Birth defect is plaguing children in FLDS towns (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635182923,00.html)

I wonder if this might eliminate them altogether?

How very sad and BRAINWASHED these people are.

[Loren Pechtel]

I think any of the males that aren't chased off are in a position of power, honestly. even if it's just over their wives, it's still significant.

Once they have been allowed to marry.

How do the numbers work? Do they practice male infanticide or something?

In their late teens take the boys to town, give them a bit of money and leave them.

[AthenaAwakened]

I think any of the males that aren't chased off are in a position of power, honestly. even if it's just over their wives, it's still significant.

Once they have been allowed to marry.

How do the numbers work? Do they practice male infanticide or something?

In their late teens take the boys to town, give them a bit of money and leave them.

The Lost Boys (http://www.childbrides.org/boys.html)

[Hedwig]

My mind started to run off in nonprofit mode about how there should be some sort of support network for people that want to get out of cults and weird religious sects, but I think that it would have to be run by theists. Going from a religious cult into an atheist environment is probably too big of a leap for them to make at first.

I'd really like to see a nonprofit organization like this available to people in that area. I wonder if it's been tried.

[Christina]

I spent an entire night thinking about this and googling after I talked to some of the teenager girls at Strong City in PM. In some ways it's not that different from working with homeless people to become self-sufficent. It's just a different set of barriers to self-sufficiency. I couldn't find anything but I was a bit lost in all of the christian websites.

It wouldn't be hard to do. It just takes money, people skilled in that sort of thing, and outreach. The biggest issue would be minors and legalities surrounding that.

[Esocyn]

What the hell made these idiots think that they could come to Texas and do this? Do they not remember the Branch Davidians? If the state can't take the kids away, they'll kill them and then kill you.

They went to Texas because the law was closing in in Arizona and Utah.
They failed to notice that Texas is one of the 13 states that does NOT have a religious exception to child abuse/neglect laws. It's one of the few progressive things left in this state and I sure hope the legislature doesn't notice they failed to overturn it in their pandering to the fundies.

ETA: Lest we forget, it was Janet Reno and the FBI that screwed up the raid on the Branch Davidian compound, not the State of Texas.

Point taken.

[Bright Life]

Some of these children have greater problems than just being brainwashed.

Birth defect is plaguing children in FLDS towns (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635182923,00.html)

I wonder if this might eliminate them altogether?

That's real rough on the kids.

Oh, no doubt. It's not a solution, just a sad commentary on the state of affairs.

[espritch]

Disgraceful, what is it with the fundamentalist mindset and it's complete disregard for the human rights of women?

The real question is "what is it with the followers?" I can understand why the fundamentalist "prophets" do it; it's a good deal for them. But why the hell does anyone else buy into their crap?

[Christina]

You should ask that question in the Strong City thread in the Religions section. There are a few ex-members of the cult there with some really interesting perspectives.

[Queen of Swords]

It's like a human lion pride - a few dominant males, several females doing most of the work, and cubs swatted if they get underfoot.

[Craig]

It's like a human lion pride - a few dominant males, several females doing most of the work, and cubs swatted if they get underfoot.

I've been reading your comments here, and they all seem to be from a point of view that "knows better". There's nothing wrong with that. But when we "know better", we might miss some of the aspects of the cult mentality that actually apply to us, while not being so obvious to us.

When i went to Travesser, for instance, I took a sense of things that were from a forty-something year old's point of view. Marriage/family/kids/career etc. I had retired, planted us in a little community away from town, so we could pursue the interests we had in a simpler life. The kids were grown up enough to be on their own paths, the wife was happy with her career choices, and I was glad to do odd jobs and generally be available around the neighborhood in that respect. Life was good enough. And then I dicovered those folks there that seemed to be enjoying what I enjoyed, in New Mexico.

Spiritually, I could sense the same sweet spirit they could. I called it the connection I had with Great Spirit, harkening to my partial Native American roots and that sense of oneness with all things. But when I got there, i was almost at once troubled, not of the Spirit, but of the contrivances of their leader, to make things happen to satisfy his vision of things, and how that was, in-situ, not as it might have been projected to the world by way of their internet presence and correspondence personally with me. I see that as my fault. Truly, my sense of things was working just fine in the life we had, and did not get turned into "trouble" until I doubted that Truth. Trying to adapt to their Truth was the issue, and my fault.

Fast forward a few years after working that out, and we end up here, now. Life is sweet. Travesser troubles are over. But I had developed a real closeness with these folks (whether they want to believe that or not). In time a few have escaped from that scenario, with various bits and pieces of their sense of the Spirit intact. I have maintained a web presence in respect to these for the purpose of being there for any of them if they ever needed anything, if they decided to leave. No one has needed anything I might be able to offer, yet, but it's there nonetheless. And that isn't much, really. But if they ever needed a bed and a meal, and a quiet place to think, until they might be well on their own feet again, they are and will always be welcome here.

So, in respect to the idea that a support system would be helpful, yes, it would be. Family works best. Without that, a friend. But mostly, it takes pure, honest, integrity laden self inquiry that is motivated on the part of the escapee, and the support of a trustworthy and neutral resource/entity. That's assuming one has enough of a healthy mind and body intact. The State is the last place real help will come from, but in a vaccuum of something better, the government is better than nothing.

That takes us back to the "cult mentality" issue. Think about it for a bit, and then list all the aspects of your life that are not "cultish". If you're honest, there won't be many. Then, pretend those things that are like being in a cult (the habits you have, places you go, cliques you hang out with, ideas you hold with other people similar to yours, government dependency, etc.) and now add religion to the mix of those behaviors, and you can see that a religious cult is just a more convenient package to keep all those personal attachments together with. Yet, there's generally no one knocking on your door from CPS when you have a dysfunctional family moment (hopefully). I'm not saying that there shouldn't be some authority wary of abuse of those that need to be protected, here. Of course there should be. When the authority we chose to have in our life doesn't work to that end, somebody needs to be able and ready to step in.

Basically, as adults, I believe we aught to have the freedom to live any lifestyle we choose, period. But that period comes with a couple of question marks; 1.) Is it safe from abuse (mental/physical/sexual) within? 2.) Is it safe from abuse without (not harm anyone else). Otherwise, "the authorities" are to stay out of people's lives.

It all really boils down to taking reponsibilty for who we are. That's how I see it, imho.

[Queen of Swords]

I've been reading your comments here, and they all seem to be from a point of view that "knows better".

Every single comment, eh? Even the ones where I've asked for Nutwatch suggestions or said thanks for inviting me here? That's quite the blanket generalization you have there.

Sorry if my one casual observation bothered you and if you derived something good or useful out of your previous experiences, that's great. As for the rest of it, if you define having friends or holding down a steady job as "cultish", then I doubt we have any common intellectual ground. So, adios.

[Craig]

I've been reading your comments here, and they all seem to be from a point of view that "knows better".

Every single comment, eh? Even the ones where I've asked for Nutwatch suggestions or said thanks for inviting me here? That's quite the blanket generalization you have there.

Sorry if my one casual observation bothered you and if you derived something good or useful out of your previous experiences, that's great. As for the rest of it, if you define having friends or holding down a steady job as "cultish", then I doubt we have any common intellectual ground. So, adios.


This was my bad, and I'm sorry. I used your comment as it was the last before mine as a sedgeway, and I meant that ALL POSTERS on this thread were being a bit self congratulatory about the issue, as if they were somehow above making such a mistake as to follow a "cult". My point was that we all get stuck in a loop sometimes, and then we move on. This wasn't meant as an attack on you and your comments, but was a reflexion on us all about how we can be a little unrealistic about others when we are apt to not always be so brite ourselves, sometimes. Guess I really proved that point, didn't I?

Can I make this up to you? Or am I eternally damned?

[Queen of Swords]

This was my bad, and I'm sorry. I used your comment as it was the last before mine as a sedgeway, and I meant that ALL POSTERS on this thread were being a bit self congratulatory about the issue

Oh, I see. No problem, then. I took your comment as a personal slam, and I tend to slam back under those circumstances, though I couldn't for the life for me figure out how "all" my comments were like that. Good to know I was wrong. :)

[Craig]

This was my bad, and I'm sorry. I used your comment as it was the last before mine as a sedgeway, and I meant that ALL POSTERS on this thread were being a bit self congratulatory about the issue

Oh, I see. No problem, then. I took your comment as a personal slam, and I tend to slam back under those circumstances, though I couldn't for the life for me figure out how "all" my comments were like that. Good to know I was wrong. :)

Good to know I was wrong, too. Keeps my feet on the ground. :-)

[Notta_skeptic]

While following the news on the FLDS kids removed from the compound, it still curdles my blood to read about all the "girls" and "women." Over 400 children (mostly girls) and 130 women (many young) were removed. Where are the boys??!?! You would assume that about 50% of all people should have been male. Less than 50 men remain at the compound. What have they done with the approximately 500 or more males that should be there? Have THAT many young boys been kicked out in the past seven years or so they've been in Texas?

Male infanticide springs to mind, and I can't get it out of my head......

[Craig]

While following the news on the FLDS kids removed from the compound, it still curdles my blood to read about all the "girls" and "women." Over 400 children (mostly girls) and 130 women (many young) were removed. Where are the boys??!?! You would assume that about 50% of all people should have been male. Less than 50 men remain at the compound. What have they done with the approximately 500 or more males that should be there? Have THAT many young boys been kicked out in the past seven years or so they've been in Texas?

Male infanticide springs to mind, and I can't get it out of my head......

Excellent observations. Anyone know how to find out the answers?

[dancer_rnb]

While following the news on the FLDS kids removed from the compound, it still curdles my blood to read about all the "girls" and "women." Over 400 children (mostly girls) and 130 women (many young) were removed. Where are the boys??!?! You would assume that about 50% of all people should have been male. Less than 50 men remain at the compound. What have they done with the approximately 500 or more males that should be there? Have THAT many young boys been kicked out in the past seven years or so they've been in Texas?

Male infanticide springs to mind, and I can't get it out of my head......

I suspect the reason is that the boys plight is not as interesting to the newspapers.

Maybe someone should ask DPS.

[Craig]

Quoting The Associated Press
Times Record News - Wichita Falls, Texas
Originally published Monday, September 17, 2007

"Advocates and government authorities have used figures ranging from 400 to 2,000 over a time frame that ranges from six to 10 years or longer. "This is not just starting with Warren Jeffs," said ex-FLDS member Isaac Wyler, 41, who still lives in the community. "Warren may have taken it to a new level but it was going on when I was a kid.""

I doubt male infanticide in the case of this "sect", but still...that's a lot of young men. Kind of reminds one of the way our useless school system generally dumps 18 year olds into the populace (male and female), calling them High School Graduates, with poor basic skills in many cases. Perhaps that is why this is not such a huge crises kind of issue. These boys have been treated horridly, but relatively speaking only to a degree worse than their non-"lost" compatriots it might seem, in the big picture. We are failing all our children as a society.

I would be interested in hearing how the children of this generation are fairing, compared to these, from a non-USA standpoint, or from other areas of the country. Are their some real success stories? Worse stories from where you are? Are their religious communities that do this in other places? I know from my own children's experience, that the school system here in NorCal was practically useless. They pretty much had to make something from nothing on their own merit, and they had the advantage of schools from other locations that were quite good in most cases before we came here.

[Droopy]

I think the boys are absent in the new stories because the authorities are going for the child rape charges. Statutory rape is easily proven with the number of 15 year old mothers they'd be pulling out of there.

The boys may be emotionally abused and worked like dogs but there don't seem to be any indication that they were sexually molested. And they are likely too necessary for labour to kill off.

[Alethias]

Many of the Moms and kids are wanting to go back to their former life. I read an article yesterday about some of the mothers that were talking with lawyers about filing a class action suit against the Child Protective Services of the state of Texas.

The raid was prosecuted under a false pretense. The man that was accused of getting a 16 year old girl pregnant on the property was in fact in the state of Arizona, and can prove it since he is on probation for ...ummmm....sexually abusing teenage girls. Had the CPS in Texas cared to investigate, they could have gotten that information.

I may think their religion is totally messed up, and in some ways abusive and controlling and domineering, but at what point does that give me the right to interfere, and to lie in order to make it legal for me to raid them and take their kids away from their parents? I really don't think it does.

Some of the children have already been placed in foster homes in the state of Texas, and are being taught by good christian people that everything you were taught before was lies, and you have to believe the lies we are teaching you instead. I'm not sure that in many ways they are all that much better off, with the exception that teenage girls will be less likely to be forced into early marriage with older men. Either way, though, they are being indoctrinated into false religion.

I guess I ought to feel good that they are being pulled out of a cult, but I guess I don't much like that it was done in a very tainted way.

[Craig]

Many of the Moms and kids are wanting to go back to their former life. I read an article yesterday about some of the mothers that were talking with lawyers about filing a class action suit against the Child Protective Services of the state of Texas.

The raid was prosecuted under a false pretense. The man that was accused of getting a 16 year old girl pregnant on the property was in fact in the state of Arizona, and can prove it since he is on probation for ...ummmm....sexually abusing teenage girls. Had the CPS in Texas cared to investigate, they could have gotten that information.

I may think their religion is totally messed up, and in some ways abusive and controlling and domineering, but at what point does that give me the right to interfere, and to lie in order to make it legal for me to raid them and take their kids away from their parents? I really don't think it does.

Some of the children have already been placed in foster homes in the state of Texas, and are being taught by good christian people that everything you were taught before was lies, and you have to believe the lies we are teaching you instead. I'm not sure that in many ways they are all that much better off, with the exception that teenage girls will be less likely to be forced into early marriage with older men. Either way, though, they are being indoctrinated into false religion.

I guess I ought to feel good that they are being pulled out of a cult, but I guess I don't much like that it was done in a very tainted way.

So let's see...it seems that a false charge of abuse from a Christian cult hater was anonomously forwarded to a cult-busting do-gooder government officer, who gave that info to an incompetent beaureacratically driven law enforcement agency, which failed to investigate adequately, leading to the unecessary arrest, incarceration, and disposition of hundreds of innocent people, mostly children, who may have been, but we are not sure, abused according to the laws of the State of Texass. At least by the FLDS. But we do know they've been uprooted from their homes, seriously upset emotionally, and are now subject to re-orientation into the dysfuntional society that created them in the first place, by "trained" foster parents in a system that is supposedly designed to protect them. What would we do without so many "good Christian" folk and the "secular" State?

[ravenscape]

I've been following a thread (http://christianforums.com/t7131265-another-waco.html) at CF about the raid and fall-out. This thread is in the "traditional" SDA forum, which is one of the more conservative congregational forums at CF.

Still, I was shocked that they apparently have little concern about polygamy and the the sexual abuse concerns.

[dancer_rnb]

Quoting The Associated Press
Times Record News - Wichita Falls, Texas
Originally published Monday, September 17, 2007

"Advocates and government authorities have used figures ranging from 400 to 2,000 over a time frame that ranges from six to 10 years or longer. "This is not just starting with Warren Jeffs," said ex-FLDS member Isaac Wyler, 41, who still lives in the community. "Warren may have taken it to a new level but it was going on when I was a kid.""

I doubt male infanticide in the case of this "sect", but still...that's a lot of young men. Kind of reminds one of the way our useless school system generally dumps 18 year olds into the populace (male and female), calling them High School Graduates, with poor basic skills in many cases. Perhaps that is why this is not such a huge crises kind of issue. These boys have been treated horridly, but relatively speaking only to a degree worse than their non-"lost" compatriots it might seem, in the big picture. We are failing all our children as a society.

I would be interested in hearing how the children of this generation are fairing, compared to these, from a non-USA standpoint, or from other areas of the country. Are their some real success stories? Worse stories from where you are? Are their religious communities that do this in other places? I know from my own children's experience, that the school system here in NorCal was practically useless. They pretty much had to make something from nothing on their own merit, and they had the advantage of schools from other locations that were quite good in most cases before we came here.

Kids from failing schools are generally not excommunicated from
their families and the society they know.

[Loren Pechtel]

Many of the Moms and kids are wanting to go back to their former life. I read an article yesterday about some of the mothers that were talking with lawyers about filing a class action suit against the Child Protective Services of the state of Texas.

The raid was prosecuted under a false pretense. The man that was accused of getting a 16 year old girl pregnant on the property was in fact in the state of Arizona, and can prove it since he is on probation for ...ummmm....sexually abusing teenage girls. Had the CPS in Texas cared to investigate, they could have gotten that information.

And you're assuming that it couldn't have happened because of that?? Just because he wasn't supposed to leave doesn't mean he didn't.

That also doesn't address the underage mothers there.

[Craig]

Quoting The Associated Press
Times Record News - Wichita Falls, Texas
Originally published Monday, September 17, 2007

"Advocates and government authorities have used figures ranging from 400 to 2,000 over a time frame that ranges from six to 10 years or longer. "This is not just starting with Warren Jeffs," said ex-FLDS member Isaac Wyler, 41, who still lives in the community. "Warren may have taken it to a new level but it was going on when I was a kid.""

I doubt male infanticide in the case of this "sect", but still...that's a lot of young men. Kind of reminds one of the way our useless school system generally dumps 18 year olds into the populace (male and female), calling them High School Graduates, with poor basic skills in many cases. Perhaps that is why this is not such a huge crises kind of issue. These boys have been treated horridly, but relatively speaking only to a degree worse than their non-"lost" compatriots it might seem, in the big picture. We are failing all our children as a society.

I would be interested in hearing how the children of this generation are fairing, compared to these, from a non-USA standpoint, or from other areas of the country. Are their some real success stories? Worse stories from where you are? Are their religious communities that do this in other places? I know from my own children's experience, that the school system here in NorCal was practically useless. They pretty much had to make something from nothing on their own merit, and they had the advantage of schools from other locations that were quite good in most cases before we came here.

Kids from failing schools are generally not excommunicated from
their families and the society they know.

Not directly, no. But do you not see how as a society we might be failing our children? Isn't this failure to provide them with necessary skills to function within it indeed a sort of excommunication? A disenfranchizement? Certainly, it's not as dramatic as the belligerent force of the police, but doesn't it directly impact on families and society in very serious ways? And isn't this whole mess in Texas, as well as everywhere else, attributable to the general deterioration of this responsibility to realistically care for each other within the societal framework?

[David M]

I would be interested in hearing how the children of this generation are fairing, compared to these, from a non-USA standpoint, or from other areas of the country. Are their some real success stories? Worse stories from where you are? Are their religious communities that do this in other places? I know from my own children's experience, that the school system here in NorCal was practically useless. They pretty much had to make something from nothing on their own merit, and they had the advantage of schools from other locations that were quite good in most cases before we came here.

In the UK the answer would be "not as well as they could" but not horrendously bad.

All state-funded schools (what you would call public schools) are required to adhere to the national curriculum. The National Curriculum consists of a set of core and foundation subjects; the core subjects are English, maths and science, and the foundation subjects are design & technology, information and communication technology (ICT), history, geography, art & design, music, physical education, modern foreign languages (ages 11-14) and citizenship (ages 11-16). Religious education is taught according to agreed local syllabus.

Students select which of the foundation subjects they will continue to study at age 15 and 16 picking up to 5 of them in addition to the 3 core subjects leading them to their GCSE exams at 16.

The overwheliming majority of private schools, even the faith based ones, also teach the national curriculum but often include additional subject options, the private school I went to offered options such as economics, philosophy and Latin.

In 2005 (last year I can find this recorded) 50.2% of students achieved 5 or more A-C grades (a good passing grade) in their GCSE exams which is certainly sufficient to continue on to college for A Levels exams (usually 3 academic subjects chosen) or equivalent qualifications taken at 18. Last year 19.5% of GCSE papers scored the top grade and 63% were in Grades A-C.

About 11% of students leave school at 16 with no formal qualifications. That's where we should be doing much better in the UK.

In 2005 44% of students continued their education after 18 by going to University. Government target is 50%.

All qualifications generally accepted are awarded by national examination boards to standards set by the government (though I swear they've got easier since I was at school) or international boards (such as the International Baccalaureate) so schools not funded by the state need to meet the standards if their students are to get the qualifications as these are awarded by independent examination boards.

[Goldie]

While following the news on the FLDS kids removed from the compound, it still curdles my blood to read about all the "girls" and "women." Over 400 children (mostly girls) and 130 women (many young) were removed. Where are the boys??!?! You would assume that about 50% of all people should have been male. Less than 50 men remain at the compound. What have they done with the approximately 500 or more males that should be there? Have THAT many young boys been kicked out in the past seven years or so they've been in Texas?

Male infanticide springs to mind, and I can't get it out of my head......
I just watched an interview on CNN with one of the women who returned to the compound. She talked about how the authorities took her son. I would assume this means that "children" means boys, as well.

[Craig]

I would be interested in hearing how the children of this generation are fairing, compared to these, from a non-USA standpoint, or from other areas of the country. Are their some real success stories? Worse stories from where you are? Are their religious communities that do this in other places? I know from my own children's experience, that the school system here in NorCal was practically useless. They pretty much had to make something from nothing on their own merit, and they had the advantage of schools from other locations that were quite good in most cases before we came here.

In the UK the answer would be "not as well as they could" but not horrendously bad.

All state-funded schools (what you would call public schools) are required to adhere to the national curriculum. The National Curriculum consists of a set of core and foundation subjects; the core subjects are English, maths and science, and the foundation subjects are design & technology, information and communication technology (ICT), history, geography, art & design, music, physical education, modern foreign languages (ages 11-14) and citizenship (ages 11-16). Religious education is taught according to agreed local syllabus.

Students select which of the foundation subjects they will continue to study at age 15 and 16 picking up to 5 of them in addition to the 3 core subjects leading them to their GCSE exams at 16.

The overwheliming majority of private schools, even the faith based ones, also teach the national curriculum but often include additional subject options, the private school I went to offered options such as economics, philosophy and Latin.

In 2005 (last year I can find this recorded) 50.2% of students achieved 5 or more A-C grades (a good passing grade) in their GCSE exams which is certainly sufficient to continue on to college for A Levels exams (usually 3 academic subjects chosen) or equivalent qualifications taken at 18. Last year 19.5% of GCSE papers scored the top grade and 63% were in Grades A-C.

About 11% of students leave school at 16 with no formal qualifications. That's where we should be doing much better in the UK.

In 2005 44% of students continued their education after 18 by going to University. Government target is 50%.

All qualifications generally accepted are awarded by national examination boards to standards set by the government (though I swear they've got easier since I was at school) or international boards (such as the International Baccalaureate) so schools not funded by the state need to meet the standards if their students are to get the qualifications as these are awarded by independent examination boards.

What I appreciate most in this is that you are able to answer this succinctly, and in that, you seem to have a good idea about how the students in the UK are performing. I wonder how many citizens in the USA could do this. I can't. I've been "too busy" to have already looked into it as a matter of course, and to have a conversant understanding of the facts involved. I do not think I'm alone in that respect. But still, it is not excusable. Good food for thought and reflection here.

[Zebulon]

Things that make you go "hmmm..."


http://www.star-telegram.com/state_news/story/585189.html

More lawmakers want sect funding probed

By ANNA M. TINSLEY
Star-Telegram Staff Writer
Wed, Apr. 16, 2008

Two North Texas lawmakers are joining a bipartisan call to investigate the awarding of federal contracts to a firm controlled by members of the polygamist sect under investigation in West Texas.

Records show that the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or FLDS, depends on contributions from members and money from the businesses it controls. Some of those businesses held contracts with the Defense Department and obtained loans guaranteed by the Small Business Administration, a Star-Telegram review shows.

...

[David M]

I would be interested in hearing how the children of this generation are fairing, compared to these, from a non-USA standpoint, or from other areas of the country. Are their some real success stories? Worse stories from where you are? Are their religious communities that do this in other places? I know from my own children's experience, that the school system here in NorCal was practically useless. They pretty much had to make something from nothing on their own merit, and they had the advantage of schools from other locations that were quite good in most cases before we came here.

In the UK the answer would be "not as well as they could" but not horrendously bad.

All state-funded schools (what you would call public schools) are required to adhere to the national curriculum. The National Curriculum consists of a set of core and foundation subjects; the core subjects are English, maths and science, and the foundation subjects are design & technology, information and communication technology (ICT), history, geography, art & design, music, physical education, modern foreign languages (ages 11-14) and citizenship (ages 11-16). Religious education is taught according to agreed local syllabus.

Students select which of the foundation subjects they will continue to study at age 15 and 16 picking up to 5 of them in addition to the 3 core subjects leading them to their GCSE exams at 16.

The overwheliming majority of private schools, even the faith based ones, also teach the national curriculum but often include additional subject options, the private school I went to offered options such as economics, philosophy and Latin.

In 2005 (last year I can find this recorded) 50.2% of students achieved 5 or more A-C grades (a good passing grade) in their GCSE exams which is certainly sufficient to continue on to college for A Levels exams (usually 3 academic subjects chosen) or equivalent qualifications taken at 18. Last year 19.5% of GCSE papers scored the top grade and 63% were in Grades A-C.

About 11% of students leave school at 16 with no formal qualifications. That's where we should be doing much better in the UK.

In 2005 44% of students continued their education after 18 by going to University. Government target is 50%.

All qualifications generally accepted are awarded by national examination boards to standards set by the government (though I swear they've got easier since I was at school) or international boards (such as the International Baccalaureate) so schools not funded by the state need to meet the standards if their students are to get the qualifications as these are awarded by independent examination boards.

What I appreciate most in this is that you are able to answer this succinctly, and in that, you seem to have a good idea about how the students in the UK are performing. I wonder how many citizens in the USA could do this. I can't. I've been "too busy" to have already looked into it as a matter of course, and to have a conversant understanding of the facts involved. I do not think I'm alone in that respect. But still, it is not excusable. Good food for thought and reflection here.

It helps a lot to have a son who is nearly 15 who made his GCSE choices last summer :)

The rest was a 20 minute Google task due to our Governments love of gathering and publishing statistics and setting targets, we even have league tables for schools published every year showing exam performance, last year my son's state school had 54% gaining 5 or more A-C grades, 99% got 5 or more passes (Grade G or better) and no one left without at least 1 qualification from 229 students - all from the school website which I have bookmarked so a 1 minute lookup.