Is Life Real?

[Jamstar]

This present life, a myth, real only if you believe it exists, a figment of one's imagination

Something I was thinking about. What are everyones thoughts on this? Could life be a myth/dream?

[Quizalufagus]

I don't see how we can meaningfully separate the state of things from the way we verify the state of things, so I would ask: how could we tell if life were a dream?

[tjakey]

If life is a dream why is it that it sucks so badly for so many people?

[RexT]

Yeah, Quiz is right of course, so the question "Is life a dream" cannot really be answered. It certainly could be, we might be a brain in a vat, living in a matrix under complete illusion of reality, but there is no way of knowing.

Given our condition, one is free to imagine anything, but it is more sensible and useful to treat the world as real. I wouldn't want to walk off a building the way they did in the Matrix to find out if the world is fake.

[Jamstar]

Thanks..:)

[Quizalufagus]

Usefulness is an extremely powerful dimension of analysis when brought to bear on metaphysical problems. The relative utility of our ontological frameworks (and we all seem to entertain many) is a profound epistemic guide. Indeed, efficacy seems to be the best guide when selecting between competing ontologies. That is why we believe in mental substance when we're predicting the behavior of others; why we are phenomenologists when we do science; why we are realists when folk physics is needed; and why we are Platonists when we talk about numbers. Are any of these positions we hold for convenience true? Maybe or maybe not. But whatever is the case, we hold them because they are of maximal usefulness with respect to the situation at hand.

[dannyk]

Here is some food for thought from Nick Bostrom on a similar possibilty.

http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html

[disgracian]

It's real enough for me.

Cheers,
D.

[nygreenguy]

If life is a dream why is it that it sucks so badly for so many people?

How would we know that our perceptions of others are not only a manifestation of our dream, and not a shared reality for others?

[kennethamy]

This present life, a myth, real only if you believe it exists, a figment of one's imagination

Something I was thinking about. What are everyones thoughts on this? Could life be a myth/dream?

I was wondering how it could be that if life is a dream, it contains dreams (and hallucinations) so that we can distinguish between dreams and hallucinations even while we are dreaming and hallucinating our dreams and hallucinations. Very confusing. Wouldn't you say.

[Quizalufagus]

What? You've never had a dream/hallucination inside a dream/hallucination?

[tjakey]

If life is a dream why is it that it sucks so badly for so many people?

How would we know that our perceptions of others are not only a manifestation of our dream, and not a shared reality for others?

Why would I dream that other people's lives suck so badly? If my "dreams" were real, everyone would be healthy, happy, and get laid alot. There would always be a perfect wind for sailboats, a perfect road for motorcycles, (no cops) great weather when I was in a Cub, lots of challenging and fun weather when I was in the jet, and cheeseburgers would be good for you.

[Preno]

In your dreams, there is always "a perfect wind for sailboats, a perfect road for motorcycles"?

[Plognark]

I don't think it matters either way. I'll just work off of whatever my limited senses and reason show me.

[RexT]

What? You've never had a dream/hallucination inside a dream/hallucination?Yup, lucid dream. A strange loop inside a strange loop inside...

[RexT]

Why would I dream that other people's lives suck so badly? If my "dreams" were real, everyone would be healthy, happy, and get laid alot. There would always be a perfect wind for sailboats, a perfect road for motorcycles, (no cops) great weather when I was in a Cub, lots of challenging and fun weather when I was in the jet, and cheeseburgers would be good for you.You're confusing dreams with fantasies.

[kennethamy]

What? You've never had a dream/hallucination inside a dream/hallucination?

No, and I do not understand what that would be. I have never dreamed or hallucinated that I have dreamed or hallucinated.

[Morticia]

Is it important and who cares.

What is great is that we do live and it's wonderful, even the bad bits. Why should living have to have some philosophical basis at all. Just live.

[RAFH]

Yeah, Quiz is right of course, so the question "Is life a dream" cannot really be answered. It certainly could be, we might be a brain in a vat, living in a matrix under complete illusion of reality, but there is no way of knowing.

Given our condition, one is free to imagine anything, but it is more sensible and useful to treat the world as real. I wouldn't want to walk off a building the way they did in the Matrix to find out if the world is fake.

Even if you did, you would still fall and smash yourself up pretty badly. Unless you have really sloppy, second class dreams.

[RAFH]

If life is a dream why is it that it sucks so badly for so many people?

Maybe they don't know how to dream good dreams. Besides, if it is a dream, it's your dream, so I guess you feel lots of people should have lives that suck badly.

[RAFH]

What? You've never had a dream/hallucination inside a dream/hallucination?

No, and I do not understand what that would be. I have never dreamed or hallucinated that I have dreamed or hallucinated.

Wow, I do that all the time. My dreams are fantastically realistic. For me, this question is very germane because I often can not tell whether or not I am dreaming. My dreams are almost always in full color with smells, textures, emotions, 'real' physics and a 'real' sense of time. Some have had elapsed durations of up to 12 years. I feel all the sensations I do in what seems to be my 'real' life, which I identify as being the one that is in play most often and has the most consistent story line, it is the environment I most often wake up to. Some I know are dreams because I am a disembodied observer, in others I am several of the characters experiencing the dream and occasionally both as well as being the primary. I've also had dreams where I was an onlooker of my own life, though not necessarily this real one.

Hell, I've had dreams where I dreamed I was dreaming in a dream. About dreams.

I've also had dreams that did not utilize 'real' physics, etal, where I could effectively fly, though it was only a few feet off the ground. Funnily enough, I've never really had a nightmare, the closest to such have been either a very frustrating dream wherein I am trying to ride a bike but it always falls over so I try and try until it gets to where if I even touch the bike it will fall over and if I am holding on to it, it will rotate up about the points I am holding so I can't get on it or being stuck in an endless winding stairway or a very long winding corridor or just a huge space that has no walls or ceiling and a lit spot where I wake up into the dream. I can walk for hours, days, years even and never find the exit or another feature. Those don't happen very often but they are very unnerving.

But 995 out of 1000 dreams I have are at least interesting and often quite pleasant.

[RAFH]

Is it important and who cares.

What is great is that we do live and it's wonderful, even the bad bits. Why should living have to have some philosophical basis at all. Just live.

I agree completely.

[RexT]

...being stuck in an endless winding stairway or a very long winding corridor...You're a strange loop : ) - Hofstadter

[RexT]

Is it important and who cares.

What is great is that we do live and it's wonderful, even the bad bits. Why should living have to have some philosophical basis at all. Just live.This comment might actually make sense in any forum but the philosophy forum - where it has the distinct effect of being ironic.

[Quizalufagus]

Is it important and who cares.

What is great is that we do live and it's wonderful, even the bad bits. Why should living have to have some philosophical basis at all. Just live.

Rich intellectual experiences are IMO one of the best parts of life. I generally find the mundane pleasures of life--sex, love, family, etc.--to be almost dull compared to the thrill of the profound.

No, and I do not understand what that would be. I have never dreamed or hallucinated that I have dreamed or hallucinated.

You at least acknowledge that others have, yes?

Wow, I do that all the time. My dreams are fantastically realistic. For me, this question is very germane because I often can not tell whether or not I am dreaming. My dreams are almost always in full color with smells, textures, emotions, 'real' physics and a 'real' sense of time. Some have had elapsed durations of up to 12 years. I feel all the sensations I do in what seems to be my 'real' life, which I identify as being the one that is in play most often and has the most consistent story line, it is the environment I most often wake up to.

Interesting. I've known one person who reports that she literally cannot tell whether she is dreaming. She goes to sleep, and she wakes up in a world which is no less real than the one we inhabit. She goes to sleep in that world and wakes up in ours again. Apparently the two are utterly indistinquishable; she only came to identify this world as the "real" by way of a more or less random choice.

[RexT]

Interesting. I've known one person who reports that she literally cannot tell whether she is dreaming. She goes to sleep, and she wakes up in a world which is no less real than the one we inhabit. She goes to sleep in that world and wakes up in ours again. Apparently the two are utterly indistinquishable; she only came to identify this world as the "real" by way of a more or less random choice.Now this really is interesting. My dreams are very much as RAFH describes. I can fly better though - sorry RAFH : )

Quiz, I wonder how consistent your friend's dreams about having to fall asleep to get back "our" world?

[Quizalufagus]

I asked the same question, and apparently the phenomenon is perfectly consistent from her POV--she never moves from one world to the other without falling asleep. Also, it seems that she doesn't experience the switch every time she falls asleep, but rather sometimes spends several days in one world or the other. She dreams "normal" dreams during those periods.

[RexT]

I asked the same question, and apparently the phenomenon is perfectly consistent from her POV--she never moves from one world to the other without falling asleep. Also, it seems that she doesn't experience the switch every time she falls asleep, but rather sometimes spends several days in one world or the other. She dreams "normal" dreams during those periods.Yeah, I've noticed that you and I sometimes think alike. : )

[kennethamy]

I asked the same question, and apparently the phenomenon is perfectly consistent from her POV--she never moves from one world to the other without falling asleep. Also, it seems that she doesn't experience the switch every time she falls asleep, but rather sometimes spends several days in one world or the other. She dreams "normal" dreams during those periods.

Eh, just let's not get carried away by our metaphors. These are not different "worlds". These are just different kinds of dreams. The world is still out there unitary, and awaiting her waking up.

[Quizalufagus]

What does it matter that we realize that this is the real world, though? From her perspective this state--the one we call the real world--is no more likely to be real than the other state (i.e., her dreams).

[Epiphany]

This present life, a myth, real only if you believe it exists, a figment of one's imagination

Something I was thinking about. What are everyones thoughts on this? Could life be a myth/dream?

A platonic brain in a vat? What would it matter either way when you perceive your current state and its not really what you think you really are but what will you really do with life. As a philosophical dilemma, there is only subjective consultation with your state hypothetically speaking. I could be dreaming this, you could be imagining it, but because I have given it breathe, its as vivid as any marker.

[Gladrags]

I used to think about this stuff on and off, and now the kids are grown I have even more time to think about it. If I told you what I really think you would think I was a sad case but it isn’t so. I’m fine with the way I am. It’s just that I don’t have much interest in anything. Oh I get curious but I don’t really care what the answer is. You see I gave up the world like some people give up smoking. I’ll tell you about my earlier life sometime but for now, that’s just the way it is. The world doesn’t ‘feel’ real to me so it might well be a dream. I am on the outside looking in and I don’t think much of what I see. Now here comes a bit of a contradiction, I do care. But I care so much that it hurts and I can’t take it so I push it away down deep inside of me, and I have disowned the world. I have nothing to give to the world and it has nothing I want. I would consider leaving it but I’m not crazy enough. And there is one thing I still care about, my children. ......... I really hope it is all a dream.

[Bamboo]

At the risk of falling into an endless Cartesian death spin, I can only ask what is life, then ask what is real, then ask what is?

Science has spent a lot of effort, particularly in the last 150 years or so, trying to better define life. Newer microscopic understanding, down to the gnat's ass, evolves almost daily now. I certainly have no platform to argue with any of that.

Escaping the limits of science, I've dwelt on surreality the last few years, wasting a lot of pleasurable life contemplating it's existence while detecting very little evidence of it. Alternately, when trying to see and feel reality, I am constantly reminded by Epicurus how my senses are so easily deceived. I am reminded by Hume that all proof is in the pudding, by Descartes that my thoughts and dreams, as accurate or incorrect as they may be, are perhaps the only 'things' worthy of an honest, true existence and by Sartre that I may not even exist or be aware of anything without the helpful construct of others. And practically every one of these sad fellows tells me that universal truth about reality, if any of that does exist, may be unfathomable to my ill-equipped mind.

Unlike rapidly advancing biology, where reality and general existence fails me is in a study of human philosophy that is still mired in criticizing old concepts and the tired semantics developed over the course of two centuries or so.

Does the answer to “What is?” lie hidden somewhere within this common thread of discussion or does it even today remain just outside of our grasp?

[seebs]

This present life, a myth, real only if you believe it exists, a figment of one's imagination

Something I was thinking about. What are everyones thoughts on this? Could life be a myth/dream?

Define the terms?

Someone observed "Dreams are real while they're happening. Can we say any more about life?"

I don't really know how to answer the question, and I'm not sure I care. I treat my experiences as though they are real.