Martial arts, anyone?

[slideyfoot]

This is the thread I start every time I sign up to a new forum. I'm a Brazilian jiu jitsu guy myself, and go into painfully longwinded detail if any wants to know more here (http://slideyfoot.blogspot.com/1999/09/my-martial-arts-background.html). http://www.thundercatsfans.org/tebforum/Smileys/classic/wink.gif

[ravenscape]

I'm a no longer practicing martial artist. I studied Ishin Ryu karate while in college, then years later studied Shito Ryu. I had to give it up about 7 years ago after developing a nerve injury in my shoulder (not due to Karate, it was a computer-related repetitive strain injury). I miss it.

[slideyfoot]

Sorry to hear that - has the injury not cleared up after 7 years? Or is it a load more serious than RSI now?

I got it in my elbow for a few months a while back, which was irritating. Then I changed the finger I use for clicking the touchpad button, and the elbow cleared up ;).

[ravenscape]

It took about 5 years to heal to the point where I could work "normally" on a computer again. There are lingering range of motion issues. I may be able to get back to it eventually.

[slideyfoot]

Can but hope: injuries are what worry me most about training, which is part of the reason I tend to be very laid back in sparring and tap early.

Speaking of Isshin-ryu, you might find some of the stuff Boyd wrote interesting/amusing, though it is kinda critical. Part 1 here (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=60383).

[Hookpunch]

Jiu-jitsu guy myself, the club started as a traditional Japanese (by way of the UK) jiu-jitsu club (i.e. heavy on the Kodokan Judo style self defense), at the Toronto Police College , run by the police self defence instructors then the BJJ guys came in and took over and we were grappling every class.

I haven't been in a while but I think it has swung back more to the traditional style as the current head is a Japanese jiu-jitsu stylist.

Slideyfoot: I see you are from the UK, well orginally I think the club was originally under one of the Robert Clark organizations (although I don't think the head of our style ever trained with him being in Canada, he learned jiu-jitsu somewhere else), then when I joined we were under Richard Morris.

One of the members of our club was Carlos Newton way back when it was a Japanese JJ club, the former UFC welter weight champion, although he went off and studied grappling somewhere else. He used to come back and give seminars.

I rolled with him one night, I was like a rag doll in his hands, he was quite gracious though and made me feel like I had a bit of a chance at winning, then he got bored and quickly finished me.

[slideyfoot]

Jiu-jitsu guy myself, the club started as a traditional Japanese (by way of the UK) jiu-jitsu club (i.e. heavy on the Kodokan Judo style self defense), at the Toronto Police College , run by the police self defence instructors then the BJJ guys came in and took over and we were grappling every class.

I haven't been in a while but I think it has swung back more to the traditional style as the current head is a Japanese jiu-jitsu stylist.

Interesting: so was it more of a police training thing, shifting depending on who was in charge at the time (i.e., JJJ to BJJ and then back again), or were there any official affiliations involved? Though you kinda answer that with your edit:

Slideyfoot: I see you are from the UK, well orginally I think the club was originally under one of the Robert Clark organizations (although I don't think the head of our style ever trained with him being in Canada, he learned jiu-jitsu somewhere else), then when I joined we were under Richard Morris.I'm not too up on JJJ, except The Jitsu Foundation, which I have reservations about, having trained with them very briefly. Only thing I know about Robert Clark (presuming its the same guy) is what I've read here (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52528&highlight=robert+clark): I've also trained with a few of the guys on that thread, as Nate, Bran and Moose have all been down to throwdowns. Jawdy too, if he posted on there: would have to reread it.

One of the members of our club was Carlos Newton way back when it was a Japanese JJ club, the former UFC welter weight champion, although he went off and studied grappling somewhere else. He used to come back and give seminars.

I rolled with him one night, I was like a rag doll in his hands, he was quite gracious though and made me feel like I had a bit of a chance at winning, then he got bored and quickly finished me.Cool - he listed himself as 'Canadian Jiu Jitsu' back in the early days, didn't he, before going all Dragon Ball?

There was someone else over on Bullshido (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53406&highlight=newton) who mentioned her husband, Patrick Buckley, used to train with him. Ever train with those guys? AeroChick has always seemed pretty cool on that forum, so if I ever got out to Canada, I'd love to pop in and train at Buckley JJ. Should be plausible, as my sister's husband is Canadian, so they plan to move out to Vancouver in a few years. I'd hope to be able to stop in on a few places when I go out there to visit. :D

And that thread reminds me, I can ask you the same question: can you remember anything about the Extreme Fighting event that was held in Canada, Extreme Fighting 2 (26th April 1996 at a Mohawk reserve near Montreal, which I think was called Kahnawake)?

[Hookpunch]

Hey Slidey, yeah Buckley trained under the head of our style, Tom Sharkey, who was also the sensei of my teacher Neil Dalgarno. Tom retired from teaching and turned his club over to Neil Dalgarno.

I don't know much about Buckley , he used to show up at our seminars once in a while, however I can higly recommend Neil Dalgarno at the Centre for Martial arts, and if you are ever in Toronto I can bring you by the Toronto Police Martial Arts club, it is run by another student of Neil Dalgarno's.

Yep, you have it right, originally it was heavy on police type defensives then when the grapplers came in everyone wanted to grapple (let's face it, grappling is more fun), then the police took over again and I think decided to have one class of grappling a week and one class of defensives.

I can't recall the extreme fighting event, I only started in jiu-jitsu in 1997.

BTW: The last time I checked we were officially under the World Kobudo Federation. I am not sure if that has changed. John Therien used to be the "official" head although I don't think Tom Sharkey ever trained under him either.

[Hookpunch]

Hey Slidey, the Jitsu foundation also has a Canadian arm, they are around the Peterborough area just East of Toronto. I don't know much about them though, I hear they are hard core, using real knives and broken bottles in their grading though.

[slideyfoot]

I can't recall the extreme fighting event, I only started in jiu-jitsu in 1997.Ah well - I always throw that question out, modified for location. I enjoy MMA history, as its a fascinating sociological phenomenon (people who had never seen an event felt compelled to call for banning, commercial interests came into it from people like a certain John McCain, martial arts schools either embraced it or shunned it etc), so I tend to jump on the topic if anyone gives me a chance.

the Jitsu foundation also has a Canadian arm, they are around the Peterborough area just East of Toronto. I don't know much about them though, I hear they are hard core, using real knives and broken bottles in their grading though.This (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=29841) thread pretty much sums up my feelings on them. However, as its a huge organisation, I'm sure there's a range of good and less good clubs: plenty of stories on the link.

John Therien used to be the "official" head although I don't think Tom Sharkey ever trained under him either.I've heard of Therien Jiu Jitsu, which is apparently a decent place to train. But again, as with most other things I mentioned so far, that's going off threads over on Bullshido. ;)

I don't know much about Buckley , he used to show up at our seminars once in a while, however I can higly recommend Neil Dalgarno at the Centre for Martial arts, and if you are ever in Toronto I can bring you by the Toronto Police Martial Arts club, it is run by another student of Neil Dalgarno's.Would love to take you up on that. :cool:

Could be a long time though, as I don't think my sister was planning to move out until her daughter (currently four months old) is at school. On the other hand, that should hopefully mean I'll have more money and be able to splash out on a big internet peeps/training fun extravaganza. :D

Would also mean I'll either know you a whole lot better by then through this place, or one or both of us will have entirely forgotten this forum exists in the intervening years. :p

[RBH]

I'm a no longer practicing martial artist. I studied Ishin Ryu karate while in college, then years later studied Shito Ryu. I had to give it up about 7 years ago after developing a nerve injury in my shoulder (not due to Karate, it was a computer-related repetitive strain injury). I miss it.Huh. I did shito ryu back in the 1970s when I was a lot more limber than I am now. :)

[ravenscape]

Huh is right. Small world! Did you ever meet Soke Mabuni?

[Jet Black]

I'm into doggy style and missio..... oh, I thought it said Marital arts.

Currently learning Wing Tsun and Escrima.

[Hookpunch]

I'm into doggy style and missio..... oh, I thought it said Marital arts.


errr.....we can skip any details on how you use your crane Jet Black-san.

[slideyfoot]

Huh. I did shito ryu back in the 1970s when I was a lot more limber than I am now. :)

I'm told karate, taekwondo etc all used to much tougher back in the 1970s compared to today (before dojos were popping up on every corner handing out black belts like candy): have you ever had a chance to make a comparison?

Also, if you did stick around for a while, did you have any thoughts on the changes in the publics perception and interaction with martial arts after Bruce Lee and the kung fu cinema craze hit?

[RBH]

Huh is right. Small world! Did you ever meet Soke Mabuni?Nope. My teachers were ethnic Chinese brothers from Kobe, Japan. They came in sequence through the 1970s as undergraduates to the college where I taught. I'd have them in an intro class in the morning, and they'd kick my ass in karate class in the evenings. :)

Later I took some tai chi chuan and a few assorted other styles with Fred Wu (http://www.clearstaichi.com/articles/DrWu.html), a truly amazing man.I'm told karate, taekwondo etc all used to much tougher back in the 1970s compared to today (before dojos were popping up on every corner handing out black belts like candy): have you ever had a chance to make a comparison?Those kinds of dojos were around even then -- one ran into them in tournaments. Since I was taught by traditionalists in a fairly isolated venue (a small college out in the boonies), I didn't have much contact with other dojos except for the occasional tournament.Also, if you did stick around for a while, did you have any thoughts on the changes in the publics perception and interaction with martial arts after Bruce Lee and the kung fu cinema craze hit?Fred Wu's popularity picked up then because he taught a range of Chinese internal and external styles including wing chun. Most of those who came didn't last, though, once they found that it was hard hard work (and Wu didn't stint on the work!).

RBH

[ravenscape]

In the '90s Soke Mobuni did a tour of US dojos that taught Shito Ryu and taught some masters classes. Ours was one of the stops. I think that was also when our sensei earned his 5th dan and we started calling him Shihan.

Being on the same hardwood floor with the man, learning a new kata was an exhilirating experience, though the kata was a bit hard on the knees. I wasn't ready for it, but several of the students later took that kata to tournaments.

[Worldtraveller]

I started in Go-jin Ryu when I lived in Okinawa, in 1982, then my football coach got me into his Kendo/Kenjitsu class (he used to bring his sh'nai to football practice...ouch), did those for about 1.5 years.

I was out for a couple years, then started Manchurian Kempo, with a smattering of Kyosho Karate and Judo, in Tucson, for about 4 years, 'til both the instructors got stationed elsewhere.

Just worked out off and on on my own until 1998, then joined the local Tae Kwon Do class there in Tucson (mostly because it was free through my gym). I finally got a black belt in 2002, then moved again. I've just been working out on my own (I have a pretty effective gym in my basement), and occasionally going to classes around town to do some sparring.

Cheers.

[slideyfoot]

I started in Go-jin Ryu when I lived in Okinawa, in 1982, then my football coach got me into his Kendo/Kenjitsu class (he used to bring his sh'nai to football practice...ouch), did those for about 1.5 years.

Is that similar to Goju Ryu, or entirely different?

I was out for a couple years, then started Manchurian Kempo, with a smattering of Kyosho Karate and Judo, in Tucson, for about 4 years, 'til both the instructors got stationed elsewhere.Manchurian Kempo? Unusual name: is it something to do with Manchuria itself, or just a name the founder picked for some other reason?

I've just been working out on my own (I have a pretty effective gym in my basement), and occasionally going to classes around town to do some sparring.Have you ever heard of Bullshido Throwdowns (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31referrerid=5651)? Given your current mode of training, might appeal: basically, a bunch of people get together to cover the costs, book a hall, and spar.

[Jet Black]

Aside from what particular art people do, what style do people prefer in terms of teaching? I've been to three nominally wing chun schools now (Wing Chun, Nug Mui and Wing Tsun, different names but basically the same thing though Wing Chun did not use Lat Sau and went straight to Chi Sau)

the first was very strict and disciplined, worked us hard as hell and strangely I enjoyed it, the second was too casual and floppy and I could go weeks wondering what the hell we were doing. This one is a lighter than the first, but more intense than the second so there is more going on even at beginner level (I'm back with the newbies again, heh). Personally I like it when it is tougher and more intense.

[Ray Moscow]

I'm a no longer practicing martial artist. I studied Ishin Ryu karate while in college, then years later studied Shito Ryu. I had to give it up about 7 years ago after developing a nerve injury in my shoulder (not due to Karate, it was a computer-related repetitive strain injury). I miss it.

Hey, I started in Isshinryu kararate, too. I still dabble in it, especially when I visit my former school (http://www.msoiaurora.org/)near Chicago.

I've done a bit of judo and really liked it, too.

I do mostly kung fu and taijiquan (tai chi) now, mostly the curriculum taught by Yang Jwing-Ming (http://www.ymaa.com/). I train with a couple of his senior students.

[Ray Moscow]

Hey, I started in Isshinryu kararate, too. I still dabble in it, especially when I visit my former school (http://www.msoiaurora.org/)near Chicago.

I've done a bit of judo and really liked it, too.

I do mostly kung fu and taijiquan (tai chi) now, mostly the curriculum taught by Yang Jwing-Ming (http://www.ymaa.com/). I train with a couple of his senior students.

I'm doing a chin na (seize & control technique) class in London with a mixed martial arts group now, which is largely based on Dr. Yang's kung-fu curriculum. I like mixing it up with different stylists.

(Oops -- I meant to just add this to my last post instead of creating a new one.)

[Ray Moscow]

Can but hope: injuries are what worry me most about training, which is part of the reason I tend to be very laid back in sparring and tap early.

Speaking of Isshin-ryu, you might find some of the stuff Boyd wrote interesting/amusing, though it is kinda critical. Part 1 here (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=60383).

Apparently this guy found a crap dojo and stayed with it for 2 years. Not a good move for him.

I find it a bit surprising that this school did no free sparring. Every karate school I've been in started free sparring as soon as the student finished learning the basic techniques -- which I think is actually too early, but what the hell.

[slideyfoot]

Apparently this guy found a crap dojo and stayed with it for 2 years. Not a good move for him.

I find it a bit surprising that this school did no free sparring. Every karate school I've been in started free sparring as soon as the student finished learning the basic techniques -- which I think is actually too early, but what the hell.

I'm a big fan of sparring from the first class, though its important to have someone experienced there keeping a close eye so nobody gets out of hand. At the place I train, the process is that you do 'specific sparring' in the beginners class: what that means is that there is an endpoint to whatever you're doing, after which you restart.

For example, specific sparring from mount (in case anyone doesn't know the BJJ meaning of that, its basically when you're sat on top of the other person) would mean the bottom person's goal is to escape, while the top person aims to submit them (like with an armbar, choke etc). You'd then restart and go again.

Once someone has been in the beginners class for about 6-8 months, they move up to advanced, where you have free sparring. Then, the only endpoint at which you restart is one person submits the other: otherwise you can keep escaping and transitioning through various positions until time runs out. Having that delay between beginners and advanced tends to mean anyone who would be a dick about sparring is weeded out before they move up (normally because they get frustrated: getting anywhere in BJJ takes a lot of patience and a lack of ego).

I'm doing a chin na (seize & control technique) class in London with a mixed martial arts group now, which is largely based on Dr. Yang's kung-fu curriculum. I like mixing it up with different stylists.

Have they got a website? I've not had the chance to see much chin na: that's basically locks and stand-up grappling, IIRC?

Oh, and if you like mixing it up with different stylists, then I'd also recommend the throwdown option (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31referrerid=5651) to you: last one in the UK was in Oxford (http://slideyfoot.blogspot.com/2008/02/23022008-oxford-throwdown-ii.html), should be heading over to Belfast again in June.

Aside from what particular art people do, what style do people prefer in terms of teaching?

Informal, with plenty of drilling followed by sparring.

My ideal class would start with a decent warm-up (preferably with movements from the style: e.g., for BJJ that would be lots of shrimping, upa, armbar drills etc, whereas in judo it would be uchi-komi, or for kickboxing you'd whack some pads), one or two techniques, drill those with increasing resistance, then finish up with sparring. I very much like the way Matt Thornton (http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-aliveness.html) puts it with his 'I' method: introduce (instructor demonstrates the technique), isolate (drill with increasing resistance), incorporate (work it into your overall game by experimenting with it in free sparring).

[Worldtraveller]

Is that similar to Goju Ryu, or entirely different?
Ya know, I'm not sure. I always thought that "Goju" was just an Americanized way of saying "Go-jin", but I could be wrong. Go-jin is one of many substyles of Ryukyan (Okinawan) karate. Very hard style, direct, not flashy, most kicks were to the legs, vitals or mid section, kicking to the head was almost unheard of (unlike tae kwon do).
Manchurian Kempo? Unusual name: is it something to do with Manchuria itself, or just a name the founder picked for some other reason?
It was a chinese based style. My favorite, of all the styles I've studied, because it had a little bit of everything, almost like a MMA. We did throws, grappling, falls, vitals and nerve strikes, pinches, submission, stand up strikes, and a lot of practical self defense, including some weapons.

I think the true chinese name had long been dropped at this particular school, but they called it Manchurian Kempo to differentiate it from the American Kenpo schools that were popping up all over the place. It was run but a coupe of military guys on the base in Tucson, and the founder was away studying escrima and some other stuff in the Philipines most of the time I was there. I only met the master once or twice when he came back to the states to visit.

Have you ever heard of Bullshido Throwdowns? Given your current mode of training, might appeal: basically, a bunch of people get together to cover the costs, book a hall, and spar.
I'll have to check it out. Although, since one of the guys I work with is a teacher (4th Dan) at the local okinawan karate school, he lets me come work out with his class for free on occasion. And I have another guy I meet up with every couple weeks to spar (his primary style is kickboxing).
Aside from what particular art people do, what style do people prefer in terms of teaching? I've been to three nominally wing chun schools now (Wing Chun, Nug Mui and Wing Tsun, different names but basically the same thing though Wing Chun did not use Lat Sau and went straight to Chi Sau)

the first was very strict and disciplined, worked us hard as hell and strangely I enjoyed it, the second was too casual and floppy and I could go weeks wondering what the hell we were doing. This one is a lighter than the first, but more intense than the second so there is more going on even at beginner level (I'm back with the newbies again, heh). Personally I like it when it is tougher and more intense.
I've been in both types too, and I like the more rigorous workout style myself. Although, when I teach, I find myself going with the more relaxed style. Odd, huh? Once I was a black belt, I used to go to a different school once every couple of months for a tougher workout. But I stayed away when they were training for tournaments. I've found that tournament training messes up my reflexes for more realistic fighting, even though I haven't gone full contact since I was in high school.

Cheers.

[Ray Moscow]

Have they got a website? I've not had the chance to see much chin na: that's basically locks and stand-up grappling, IIRC?

Chin na covers just about any "control technique", including locks, chokes, and cavity press. There's a lot of it in jujitsu. In this class we're working most finger and arm manipulation.

There's no website for this little class, but if anyone in the London area is interested they can PM me.

On a more general level, Master Yang's books and videos on chin na (http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/dvd/external)are pretty good.

In most tradtional Chinese stuff, one doesn't follow the opponent to the ground if one can help it -- the assumption being that there are other enemies around who will stab or stomp you while you're busy on the ground dispatching the first guy. On the other hand, it's good to know some ground fighting in case you wind up on the ground anyway! :)



Oh, and if you like mixing it up with different stylists, then I'd also recommend the throwdown option (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31referrerid=5651) to you: last one in the UK was in Oxford (http://slideyfoot.blogspot.com/2008/02/23022008-oxford-throwdown-ii.html), should be heading over to Belfast again in June.

Sounds interesting. I used to go to some JKD meets like that, but the truth is that I don't heal as fast as I used to after a rough match.

Ray (old fart but still having fun with it)

[slideyfoot]

In most tradtional Chinese stuff, one doesn't follow the opponent to the ground if one can help it -- the assumption being that there are other enemies around who will stab or stomp you while you're busy on the ground dispatching the first guy.

That's the impression I've got from looking over forums over the past few years (question has come up a few times on my favourite, Bullshido, most recently here (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=66815)). Interesting, as most countries I can think of develop some form of ground fighting, normally wrestling. Not Chinese, but there is Mongolian wrestling, which seems to be the closest (though given how huge China is, India, Korea etc would count as 'close' too) indigenous wrestling to China.

That Last Man Standing thing a little while back was great, where they did a whole bunch of different wrestling, from Mongolia to Africa.

On the other hand, it's good to know some ground fighting in case you wind up on the ground anyway! Definitely, though I personally train for fun, rather than self-defence. Martial arts has always been primarily about enjoyment for me, though fitness, self-defence etc are a nice bonus.

Sounds interesting. I used to go to some JKD meets like that, but the truth is that I don't heal as fast as I used to after a rough match.

Ray (old fart but still having fun with it)Cool - will post up the dates/times/venue of the next one in this thread (once I know: at the mo, looks like it will be 21st June in Belfast), or maybe in its own one. Contact level is decided between whoever is sparring (e.g., I keep things to the ground, which I find much less injurious than stand-up). Some people will go all out MMA, others will just want fairly light stand-up, and then there are those like me who often spend a lot of the time doing some drills and simply chatting to people, with the odd bit of grappling interspersed. ;)

There are a fair few 'older' guys (depending on what your definition for that is :p) who've popped along to throwdowns in the past - e.g., at the Oxford one, there was a bloke in his 40s. Showed me some handy stuff on the ground, and also good fun when down the pub aftewards. :D

[Ray Moscow]

That's the impression I've got from looking over forums over the past few years (question has come up a few times on my favourite, Bullshido, most recently here (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=66815)). Interesting, as most countries I can think of develop some form of ground fighting, normally wrestling. Not Chinese, but there is Mongolian wrestling, which seems to be the closest (though given how huge China is, India, Korea etc would count as 'close' too) indigenous wrestling to China.

Oh, just about all the Chinese arts have wrestling -- they just don't (usually) do a lot of ground fighting if they can help it. The idea is to make the other guy fight the ground with his head while you keep to your feet. :p

Shuai jiao is usual term for wrestling itself, or sometimes for styles that emphasise wrestling.

A lot of chin na (especially from northern styles) comes from fighting the Mongols, who were very good at wrestling. Chin na is basically how they try to counter wrestling, which is otherwise hard to beat.

There are a fair few 'older' guys (depending on what your definition for that is :p) who've popped along to throwdowns in the past - e.g., at the Oxford one, there was a bloke in his 40s. Showed me some handy stuff on the ground, and also good fun when down the pub aftewards. :D

Well, I'm well into my 40's, but I usually still hold my own at these things (mostly through sneakiness). I might try to go to the next London-area one, though probably more to just work on drills than try to fight the young 'uns.

[slideyfoot]

Oh, just about all the Chinese arts have wrestling -- they just don't (usually) do a lot of ground fighting if they can help it. The idea is to make the other guy fight the ground with his head while you keep to your feet. :p

I keep making that mistake: I meant ground fighting. Always forget 'wrestling' covers stand-up grappling too. D'oh!

Well, I'm well into my 40's, but I usually still hold my own at these things (mostly through sneakiness). I might try to go to the next London-area one, though probably more to just work on drills than try to fight the young 'uns.Will let you know when the next one is happening: closest we've got to London so far is Oxford. There was talk of one in Reading, but not heard anything recently.

Don't suppose you know of any decent rooms for hire in London, that have mats and stuff onsite?

[Ray Moscow]

Don't suppose you know of any decent rooms for hire in London, that have mats and stuff onsite?

I'll ask around. The London "chin na" class also does wrestling twice a week, so maybe their place would be available.

[Sarpedon]

Yesterday evening I had my second evening longsword class Woot! We covered Zornhau, and Schwerkhau and Krumpfhau. Its a bit of a review for me, but its always nice to practice the basics. I also practiced some sword grappling with one of the guys.

[Ray Moscow]

Yesterday evening I had my second evening longsword class Woot! We covered Zornhau, and Schwerkhau and Krumpfhau. Its a bit of a review for me, but its always nice to practice the basics. I also practiced some sword grappling with one of the guys.

Sword grappling?!!! How many fingers do you have left? :)

[sanshou]

kung fu/san shou for seven years
BJJ/MMA grappling for about a year

[Sarpedon]

The trick is you don't grab the sword where its sharp, and you wear gloves.

Interesting note. Medieval swords can be and were frequently grasped by the blade. The edges were not 'razor sharp' but merely sharp enough to cut with proper cutting motions by the wielder. If you read medieval fencing manuals, you will frequently see people holding swords by their blade and striking people with the hilt. This was called the 'murder stroke.'

[Jet Black]

Well, I'm well into my 40's, but I usually still hold my own at these things (mostly through sneakiness). I might try to go to the next London-area one, though probably more to just work on drills than try to fight the young 'uns.

really? you didn't look a day over 30 in London.

[Ray Moscow]

The trick is you don't grab the sword where its sharp, and you wear gloves.

Interesting note. Medieval swords can be and were frequently grasped by the blade. The edges were not 'razor sharp' but merely sharp enough to cut with proper cutting motions by the wielder. If you read medieval fencing manuals, you will frequently see people holding swords by their blade and striking people with the hilt. This was called the 'murder stroke.'

Thanks!

I thought you were joking, actually. One of aspects that makes swords so useful is that they are difficult for the opponent to grab without pulling back a proverbial bloody stump.

But even the Chinese narrow-blade sword traditionally was not sharp on the bottom 1/3 of the blade, as this was just for blocking/controlling and not for attack.

[Ray Moscow]

really? you didn't look a day over 30 in London.

Healthy living, I suppose. (I'm closer to 50 than 40, even.)

[Sarpedon]

But even the Chinese narrow-blade sword traditionally was not sharp on the bottom 1/3 of the blade, as this was just for blocking/controlling and not for attack.

Most European swords have that too. We call it the 'ricasso.'

Here is an illustrated fencing manual, showing longswords (which is what I do), daggers, messers, and sword and buckler (which I do a little).

http://www.schielhau.org/tal.html

Healthy living, I suppose.

Must be all those bread crumbs.

[Ray Moscow]

Well, please accept a virtual rep for posting about a western martial art (as opposed to our usual chop-suey stuff).

[slideyfoot]

Most European swords have that too. We call it the 'ricasso.'

Here is an illustrated fencing manual, showing longswords (which is what I do), daggers, messers, and sword and buckler (which I do a little).

Must be all those bread crumbs.

I'm a big fan of both fantasy and history, so I'd quite fancy giving something like ARMA a go: used to do a bit of fencing, but that was it. Although the sword stuff I saw at SENI a few years back didn't look too tempting: can't remember what group it was with. Though thats just a half-remembered demonstration on my part. ;)

kung fu/san shou for seven years
BJJ/MMA grappling for about a year

Cool - been hoping you'd pop on this thread after I saw your intro. :D

Relatively similar background to me, as it happens: I did a form of kung fu (though I've always seen it as kickboxing with traditional trimmings) called Zhuan Shu Kuan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuan_Shu_Kuan) for technically 8 years, but realistically 5 years. Haven't been to a class for a while, as the BJJ has taken over, which I started in November 2006.

Where is it you train?

[Wolfie]

Aikido and wing chun.

Yes, I have had occasion (too many...) to use the skills.

My aikido sensei also made me study many other forms - plus I have both Japanese and Chinese weapons training.

[Ray Moscow]

Relatively similar background to me, as it happens: I did a form of kung fu (though I've always seen it as kickboxing with traditional trimmings) called Zhuan Shu Kuan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuan_Shu_Kuan) for technically 8 years, but realistically 5 years. Haven't been to a class for a while, as the BJJ has taken over, which I started in November 2006.



Cool. I do some Changquan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changquan) ("Longfist"), too. It's one of the two "external" styles that my teacher does.

I'm thinking of getting involved in a local grappling class, just to get back into it a bit.

[Barbarian]

Apparently this guy found a crap dojo and stayed with it for 2 years. Not a good move for him.Hey, I did that too, except for me it was close to 3 years.

Which is to say, there is no real protection against something like this happening. How are we to decide if the dojo is crap? Can't judge it in a few visits, unless it's really bad, but if it is just misguided, there's no way for a beginner to judge it. Also, in my case there were practically no alternatives around, so it was really 'learn here or do not learn at all'.

[Ray Moscow]

Hey, I did that too, except for me it was close to 3 years.

Which is to say, there is no real protection against something like this happening. How are we to decide if the dojo is crap? Can't judge it in a few visits, unless it's really bad, but if it is just misguided, there's no way for a beginner to judge it. Also, in my case there were practically no alternatives around, so it was really 'learn here or do not learn at all'.

There's no easy answer to this. IMO, most martial arts schools and teachers are relatively "crap", and yet I have no doubt that most of their students benefit from the training anyway.

Some of the best teachers I've met have been the least successful commercially, whereas some really successful schools seemed to me to be pretty lame. It's marketing and sales, I suppose, more than quality of instruction.

IMO, the job of the teacher is twofold:

1. The primary thing is to provide an enviroment that is safe, interesting and enjoyable. Yes, enjoyable.

2. To teach the art accurately and effectively. For me, that mostly comes down to basic principles.

You really can't make a student "good" at martial arts. That is entirely up to him or her (and how hard he/she is willing to work). All the teacher/coach can do is provide items 1 and 2.

There are some warning signs for crappy schools and teachers, mostly violations of what I listed above.

[slideyfoot]

Which is to say, there is no real protection against something like this happening. How are we to decide if the dojo is crap?

If you're the same Barbarian from the HH, you'll have heard this from me before, but: Bullshido has the answer. There is a great FAQ (http://www.bullshido.com/articles/finding-a-good-martial-arts-school.html) on finding a good martial arts school. In general, I'd say signs to look for are a competitive record, regular heavy contact sparring and 'aliveness' (if you're unfamiliar with the term, Matt Thornton has a long article (http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-aliveness.html) on the topic describing what it is and why it's important: he is the man most associated with popularising the concept).

If a school competes regularly (in a proper tournament, not just some inhouse thing) with some success, then that's a good indication its not complete crap. Its one of the plus points to something like BJJ or muay thai, as you can't fake skill on the mat/in the ring against an opponent looking to submit/knock you out etc.

Can't judge it in a few visits, unless it's really bad, but if it is just misguided, there's no way for a beginner to judge it. Also, in my case there were practically no alternatives around, so it was really 'learn here or do not learn at all'.Again, Bullshido has a useful Newbietown (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=64referrerid=5651) forum, which has strict rules against the trolling that pops up on some other bits of the site. That means its a good place to ask questions like "what do you guys think of this place" with a link to the website. The forum has a pretty big membership, so quite likely there will be someone nearby (depending on just how remote you are :p).

There's an ongoing debate about whether its better to study crap rather than nothing at all. A good argument against is that if you're studying something terrible, it can take a looooong time to get rid of bad habits. E.g., not keeping a proper guard in striking.

Not that Bullshido is the only place to go for that kind of info: if I'm thinking in terms of grappling, there is also NHB Gear (http://www.nhbgear.com/forum/index.php) and the grappling section of Sherdog (http://www.sherdog.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12) that are often useful.

[Barbarian]

If you're the same Barbarian from the HH,That I am.you'll have heard this from me before, but: Bullshido has the answer.See, that's just shifting the question: how do I know if Bullshido is reliable?If a school competes regularly (in a proper tournament, not just some inhouse thing) with some success, then that's a good indication its not complete crap. Its one of the plus points to something like BJJ or muay thai, as you can't fake skill on the mat/in the ring against an opponent looking to submit/knock you out etc.We've been through this before: if I wanted to gain fighting experience, I'd organize a softer variant of Fight Club, because a relatively safe setup whereby you can practice sparring is gonna take you a long way towards being a proficient fighter, even if it is not accompanied by any formal training - but not necessarily a long enough way for my tastes. I do believe in long-term investment, in arts to be trained for many years before anything they teach can be put to actual use; in return, the peaks to be reached this way should rise beyond what a street-smart, never formally trained fighter ever can hope to achieve. How do you judge that kind of potential? (<-- generic 'you'; AFAIK you, personally, just don't believe in the existence of such arts).Again, Bullshido has a useful Newbietown (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=64referrerid=5651) forum, which has strict rules against the trolling that pops up on some other bits of the site. That means its a good place to ask questions like "what do you guys think of this place" with a link to the website. The forum has a pretty big membership, so quite likely there will be someone nearby (depending on just how remote you are :p).My question was entirely theoretical and apparently ill-formed; I am not looking for a school anymore. I was rather interested in what should I have done differently 25 years ago, to discover that despite the obvious well-meaning of the dojo, whatever it taught wasn't very useful.There's an ongoing debate about whether its better to study crap rather than nothing at all. A good argument against is that if you're studying something terrible, it can take a looooong time to get rid of bad habits. E.g., not keeping a proper guard in striking.My major fear, yes. In that debate, I am in the 'not studying is better than studying crap' side.

[slideyfoot]

That I am.

Ah - in that case, I'll try not to rehash the other thread. That went on for months, IIRC, and ended up with essentially 'agree to disagree'. ;)

They're planning another central European throwdown (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=67021&highlight=bratislava), but seem to remember you weren't too keen on the location: I assume its going to be in Bratislava again. Then again, doesn't seem to generated any interest yet, which is a shame. The guy who organised it was a Wing Chun chappy, and managed to get them on national TV (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=59994), which is kinda cool (translation in the thread link):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26QNTcueerQ

[Barbarian]

There's no easy answer to this. IMO, most martial arts schools and teachers are relatively "crap", and yet I have no doubt that most of their students benefit from the training anyway.Sort of agree. E.g. my gymnastics grades skyrocketed during the time period I was with that particular dojo. However, there is such a thing as overdoing it; for years I was looking for an MA defined to the detail level compatible to Shotokan, until I had to come to the conclusion that Shotokan was the most anal-retentively specified art, and that I had unrealistic expectations.Some of the best teachers I've met have been the least successful commercially, whereas some really successful schools seemed to me to be pretty lame. It's marketing and sales, I suppose, more than quality of instruction.Sounds about right, but does not apply to my case: this was one of the two games in town, illegal (Romania under Ceausescu wasn't exactly partial to MA or any kind of association) and free, as in, free.IMO, the job of the teacher is twofold:

1. The primary thing is to provide an enviroment that is safe, interesting and enjoyable. Yes, enjoyable.

2. To teach the art accurately and effectively. For me, that mostly comes down to basic principles.I'd add what is implicit in your (2): to know the art intimately. I wish I had a dollar for every time when I asked a question and I was told to train more and it would sort out itself. I did answer those questions myself, but it took 25 years, those 25 years which would have been very different for me if I had those answers.

[Barbarian]

Ah - in that case, I'll try not to rehash the other thread. That went on for months, IIRC, and ended up with essentially 'agree to disagree'. ;) Took months at a slow pace, though. It took me days to compose my posts. That was, btw, the last time I went public with my ideas. On the other hand, why should those new to this discussion not suffer through a similar thread? Too bad I would probably not have the time ...

[Ray Moscow]

Sort of agree. E.g. my gymnastics grades skyrocketed during the time period I was with that particular dojo. However, there is such a thing as overdoing it; for years I was looking for an MA defined to the detail level compatible to Shotokan, until I had to come to the conclusion that Shotokan was the most anal-retentively specified art, and that I had unrealistic expectations.Sounds about right, but does not apply to my case: this was one of the two games in town, illegal (Romania under Ceausescu wasn't exactly partial to MA or any kind of association) and free, as in, free.


I would not class Shotokan as much of a fighting art (now I'll duck as the Shotokan guys try to kick my ass!). It's more of a sport.

Edit: I should qualify this to say that this doesn't disqualify some Shotokan people from becoming good fighters. Obviously some of them have.

I'd add what is implicit in your (2): to know the art intimately. I wish I had a dollar for every time when I asked a question and I was told to train more and it would sort out itself. I did answer those questions myself, but it took 25 years, those 25 years which would have been very different for me if I had those answers.

IMO, one mark of a bad teacher is failing to answer honest questions adequately. It means that either the teacher doesn't understand what he's teaching or else doesn't care whether the student learns it.

I would class even some very famous "masters" as bad teachers by this criterion.

One thing I like about teaching MA is that this forces one to dig a lot deeper into it, since others are depending on you to teach it right.

[slideyfoot]

Took months at a slow pace, though. It took me days to compose my posts. That was, btw, the last time I went public with my ideas. On the other hand, why should those new to this discussion not suffer through a similar thread? Too bad I would probably not have the time ...

Heh - would be interesting to see what other people thought, but I think we pretty much reached an impasse in our discussion (a friendly impasse, I hope, but still, thread seemed to start going in circles). Basic difference in approach to martial arts: I think 'aliveness (http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-aliveness.html)' is essential (and that tends to relate to competition, though I have to admit I personally don't compete much, yet), whereas (without meaning to put words into your mouth) you don't. ;)

[Ray Moscow]

Heh - would be interesting to see what other people thought, but I think we pretty much reached an impasse in our discussion (a friendly impasse, I hope, but still, thread seemed to start going in circles). Basic difference in approach to martial arts: I think 'aliveness (http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-aliveness.html)' is essential (and that tends to relate to competition, though I have to admit I personally don't compete much, yet), whereas (without meaning to put words into your mouth) you don't. ;)

Competition can be a good spur for training and sometimes a reality check against impractical "martial arts" that actually don't work, but of course fighting competitions are actually "sport" fighting (with lots of rules and safeguards) rather than real fighting (which has none). What wins sports matches is not necessarily the right thing for a real situation, though of course it's usually much better than nothing!

I would cite my own experience in sports karate as an example. Much of the stuff we did to score points in tournaments, even the heavy-contact bouts, just was not practical in a real fight.

Regarding the "aliveness" concept you cite:

There is just no way to actually develop much martial skill without training partners -- and especially those who aren't compliant to the techniques. One just never develops the basic elements of timing, distance, sensitivity, rooting, footwork, body structure, angling, etc. without partners.

Solo forms and drills just aren't enough. We need to practice fighting to learn fighting.

[Barbarian]

I would not class Shotokan as much of a fighting art (now I'll duck as the Shotokan guys try to kick my ass!). It's more of a sport.Disclaimer: I really don't care either way about Shotokan, but we are lucky not to have too many people in this thread, or else we'd already have a flamefest over what you just said, drowning out the meaningful discussion. Of course, every art form passed down and having reached the West has the mythological element of being a dumbed-down form of The Original (TM), e.g. no one would argue that in the case of Taijiquan.IMO, one mark of a bad teacher is failing to answer honest questions adequately. It means that either the teacher doesn't understand what he's teaching or else doesn't care whether the student learns it.I agree, even if that means that I haven't ever met a good teacher. In fact, I haven't ever met anyone with a high enough rank who would be willing to answer my questions. A couple of my friends and former classmates have reached dan level, but somehow they go all right-wing authoritarian when discussing MA, it's as if they thought "it sucked so hard to achieve my rank, let others suffer through it too" coupled with "don't question my authority by not accepting my answer".

This RWA streak connects to not caring whether the student learns the art or not, which is IMO a basic trait of traditional Eastern schools and has heavily influenced the teaching of MA in the West as well. That's a rant for another post, though.

[slideyfoot]

This RWA streak connects to not caring whether the student learns the art or not, which is IMO a basic trait of traditional Eastern schools and has heavily influenced the teaching of MA in the West as well. That's a rant for another post, though.

The Eastern (for want of a better term) style of teaching is definitely one of the big reasons I'm much happier in BJJ than any 'traditional' (though that is another very dodgy term for a number of reasons, the first being age: oldest styles around are arguably boxing and wrestling, which certainly don't fit the normal idea of what people mean when they say 'traditional martial arts') art, as I really dislike the hierarchical "treat you like shit because I'm the master" immortalised-in-countless-films (note, FILMS, which is what a lot of people seem to base stuff on, worryingly) kind of instruction.

Also annoying that Westerners (again, for want of a better term) tend to be the biggest culprits of this, in their attempts to somehow transpose a different culture back to their home country, often while horribly misunderstanding and distorting that culture in the process (partly films thing again: bleh. I love old kung fu flicks, but they're entertainment, not a realistic portrayal of how you should be training/teaching!)

Yay for broad generalisations. Ahem. :p

[Ray Moscow]

In the US at least, most of the previous generation of MA teachers were ex-military. They learned while being posted in Japan, Korea, Okinawa, etc.

I think that's largely why they ran their classes like boot camp.

Anyway, I was pleasantly surprised (much, much later in my training) to meet teachers who didn't run classes in that way.

[Sarpedon]

I rather like my classes. My fencing/boxing instructor is also a high school teacher, who knows how to use humor and various teaching techiques. My other instructor is a swordssmith who's spent years making swords and learning about how they are used from the old traditional texts.

[Ray Moscow]

Most practice Chinese swords are crap.

However, some kung-fu friends of mine found a good swordmaker in the US and had some nice swords made. Using them is like a dream after practising with crappy swords.:)

You have to be really careful in practising two-person stuff with them, because they are sharp and will easily lop off fingers (and worse!). I just use blunt swords for practice.

[Zebulon]

Much of the stuff we did to score points in tournaments, even the heavy-contact bouts, just was not practical in a real fight.

Agreed. Obvious targets like the knees and (depending upon tournament rules) the face are disallowed.

I'm testing for 2nd degree black belt in taekwondo next month. I also cross train in jiujitsu and eskrima. I met my fiancée through martial arts; she also trains in taekwondo, and is testing for 2nd degree in August. Right now she's in South Korea; she placed in an international tournament there over the weekend, and is participating in some seminars as well as getting in some sightseeing. :)

[slideyfoot]

I'm testing for 2nd degree black belt in taekwondo next month. I also cross train in jiujitsu and eskrima.

I'm guessing that's not Brazilian jiu jitsu, but as you put in the extra 'i', thought I'd ask. ;)

I met my fiancée through martial artsWoo, me too! Well, not fiancée, but we have been together since 2001, so kinda comparable. :p

Right now she's in South Korea; she placed in an international tournament there over the weekend, and is participating in some seminars as well as getting in some sightseeing. :)I'd like to go to South Korea some time: would probably want to do some martial artsy fun while over there. Although its been a good year or two since I've jumped around doing high kicks. Then again, I have seen a few Korean BJJers. :D

[Zebulon]

I'm guessing that's not Brazilian jiu jitsu, but as you put in the extra 'i', thought I'd ask. ;)

Nope, Danzan Ryu. :p

[slideyfoot]

Nope, Danzan Ryu. :p

Ah: that one has popped up a few times on Bullshido (my go-to site for opinions on MA, as anyone reading this thread can probably tell). E.g., this thread (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10924&highlight=danzan): apparently Willy Cahill rocks.

[slideyfoot]

To let the MA people on here know: there's a Belfast Throwdown coming up on 21st June. I had a great time last year, so can fully recommend it - details for this years meet-up on the thread (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=63938&page=2). Cost was about £5 each or so in 2007, but may well be less than that this time (room hire is shared out between whoever shows up), as I think there will be more people for 2008.

Just booked my flight, so hopefully see some of you there! :wave: