Bosnian Pyramids?

[Ray Moscow]

I just got back from a trip to Bosnia. On the flight back I sat next to a woman who was ghostwriting a book for the guy who is behind this website (http://www.piramidasunca.ba/en/).

OK, I had never heard of such a thing and, frankly, these "pyramids" look more like naturally occuring formations like cinder cones to me, but apparently this "controvery" has been going on some time. The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_pyramids) implies that this guy has long been dealing in woowoo.

This quote seemed to sum up the problem:

In a letter to the editor of The Times on 25 April 2006, Professor Anthony Harding, president of the European Association of Archaeologists, referred to Osmanagić's theories as "wacky" and "absurd" and expressed concern that insufficient safeguards were in place to protect Bosnia's "rich heritage" from "looting and unmonitored or unauthorised development".[15] After visiting the site himself, Harding reported, "...we saw areas of natural stone (a breccia), with fissures and cracks; but no sign of anything that looked like archaeology."[16]

According to one source, on May 8, 2006, members of the Geological team investigating Visočica on behalf of the Archaeological Park: Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun Foundation held a press conference in Tuzla to present the results of their research. The academics, from the Faculty of Mining and Geology[17] at the University of Tuzla[18] and led by Professor Dr. Sejfudin Vrabac,[19] concluded that the hill is a natural geological formation, made of classic sediments of layered composition and varying thickness, and that its shape is a consequence of endodynamical and egsodynamical processes in post-Miocene era.

I even skimmed part of a book that this guy had written, and I think that if he really has any evidence to offer he needs to write up his case in proper format and submit it to one of the peer-reviewed journals. As far as I could tell, he never has.

Anyway, I was wondering if any earth-science or archaelogy people here had run across this stuff before.

[deadman_932]

I've seen the claims before and because there was wide agreement that the "mounds" were natural formations, I didn't really think much more of it.

If they were man-made, they'd be interesting...but my own feeling is that this is an even more interesting example of the kinds of woo that spring up in stressed societies. They've certainly had a lot of that in the region.

The Science news article I read was :
Bohannon, John (2006) Mad About Pyramids. 22 September 2006:Vol. 313. no. 5794, pp. 1718 - 1720

Relevant parts of that include these excerpts:

SARAJEVO--It should have been a great day for Balkan archaeology. For the first time since the bloody civil war, experts from all corners of ethnically divided Bosnia gathered for an impromptu meeting at the National Museum.

But the mood was one of deep frustration. The journalists weren't interested in the scientists' plans for restarting international collaborations. Nor did they want to hear about rebuilding the ailing university curriculum, or saving the country's archaeological assets from neglect and looting. "They only want to hear about one thing," says Zilka Kujundzic-Vejzagic, the museum's expert in prehistoric archaeology, who organized that 9 June meeting: "pyramids, pyramids, pyramids."

The "pyramids" in question are 30 kilometers northwest of Sarajevo near the town of Visoko. A Bosnian businessman named Semir Osmanagic, who runs a construction company in Houston, Texas, announced last year that a 360-meter-tall hill that looms over Visoko is in fact a buried pyramid built, he claims, by an unknown civilization 12,000 years ago. He has dubbed it the Pyramid of the Sun. With the help of volunteers, Osmanagic has uncovered stone blocks beneath the hill's surface and a system of tunnels, which he says are like those of the pyramids in Egypt. Osmanagic has proposed that two smaller hills nearby are part of the same "pyramidal complex."

That vision is not shared by any of a half-dozen archaeologists and geologists who spoke to Science after visiting Visoko. The truth is plain, says Stjepan Coric, a Bosnian geologist at the University of Vienna, Austria, who was invited by Osmanagic to examine the site: The stone slabs are nothing more than fractured chunks of sediment called breccia, the remains of a 7-million-year-old lakebed that was thrust up by natural forces. "This is what gives the mound its angular shape," Coric says. As for the tunnels, "if they were made by humans, without establishing their age, I would assume they are part of an old mine." Harding's verdict: "It's just a hill."...

Osmanagic, who came up with the hills' mythical names, says he became convinced in April 2005 that they are buried pyramids, based on their shape and position. Osmanagic is in love with pyramids. He says he has studied "hundreds" of them around the world--including the Mayan pyramids, which in his view were located and built with "vibrational" technology inherited from the lost civilizations of "Atlantis and Lemuria."

...Osmanagic says he is aware that he is digging through layers of occupation and claims he will publish his results "in a peer-reviewed journal" in November. "But I am not interested in the approval of elite scientists. This project is for the people."

...One expert says it's easy to understand why people seeking a national identity would embrace the Visoko phenomenon. "Osmanagic's pyramid fantasies are exactly what the majority of Bosnians want to hear," explains a Bosnian sociologist who spoke on condition of anonymity. There are also economic motivations. Last month, Osmanagic announced plans to build three "archaeological parks" across the country that will "rewrite world history" by revealing more evidence of Bosnia's prehistoric "supercivilization." New highways and hotels are part of the plan.

[Ray Moscow]

Yeah, but this guy lives in Houston, and apparently he has become quite wealthy in an unrelated business.

From my scan of his earlier book, I think his approach boiled down to "well, it looks like a pyramid", and then trying to find evidence to support his idea without following any academically or scientifically acceptable methology.

OTOH, his ghost writer is very pretty and nice, so for woo-woo this is not so bad.

[Lucretius III]

While on the video on that site there do appear to be worked stones and paths ,this would hardly be surprising ,as that area appears to have been inhabited for a very long time .
Indeed Illyricum was an important Roman province ,the Romans were there in 167 BC and it was an important source of gold .
The "pyramids" look to me like natural hills with maybe some mining/quarrying work having been done on them that makes them look a bit more regular than you would expect ,interesting enough but not really pyramids in any real sense.

[Ray Moscow]

OK, so the hypothesis is apparently crap. (And actually, the approach reminded me of that of a certain YEC advocate around here.)

So, now my moral dilemma is whether to 1) try to dissuade this woman from finishing the book for this guy or 2) just let her run with it without my damp-blanket comments and killjoy skepticism.

ETA: I did write her a note to encourage some healthy skepticism about this stuff.

[Lucretius III]

I found this site that may be of interest the English language version isn't brilliant but you can follow what is being said

http://irna.lautre.net/-Bosnian-pyramids-.html

Not only could any evidence of paths etc be Roman it appears that this was the site of the medieval town and castle of Visoki,so it shouldn't come as a shock to find some man made aspects to the lanscape there .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_town_of_Visoki

[Berthold]

See also here (http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=163009). :cool:

[Ray Moscow]

Hey, I've just had another brush with greatness, haven't I?

I've met the new Erich von Däniken's ghost writer!

[Ray Moscow]

Well, she's still sold on the "conspiracy of scientists against us" idea. Like I said, it seems pretty much like Creationism and its advocates.

[Lucretius III]

I had another look at both the video from the "official site" and the still pics from the first site I linked to above and can see that these

http://irna.lautre.net/IMG/jpg/img27.jpg

look "natural" to me ,whereas these look to be worked stone

http://irna.lautre.net/IMG/jpg/726518nov.jpg

Having said that the ones I say may be worked stone seem to show very few signs of general wear that you would expect form a presumably busy site , no worn ruts made by carts or sleds for example.

[Ray Moscow]

Ha! She showed me these pictures (or very similar ones) on her laptop yesterday.

Yeah, I can think of a natural formation in Yorkshire that looks just like the first photo. (I didn't have my photos with me, but here's one from the net: Malham Cove limestone payment):
http://www.leaney.org/photos/2005/20050827l.jpg

OK, it's limestone rather than sandstone, but still.

What I didn't understand was the supposed connection to buried pavement (2nd photo above) or man-made tunnels (as you said, probably old mines) to the proposition that the entire hill, and others, were man-made pyramids.

[Mike PSS]

Well, she's still sold on the "conspiracy of scientists against us" idea. Like I said, it seems pretty much like Creationism and its advocates.
But you at least got her phone number. :eek::love:

[Ray Moscow]

Well, her email address at least. :)

(Although my wife would probably kill me if things got "personal".)

[Mike PSS]

Well, her email address at least. :)

(Although my wife would probably kill me if things got "personal".)
Only if she knew....

**wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say-no-more, saaaaaay-nnnnno-mmmmmore**

Ummmmm...
Your wife. Does she go?

[RAFH]

OK, so the hypothesis is apparently crap. (And actually, the approach reminded me of that of a certain YEC advocate around here.)

So, now my moral dilemma is whether to 1) try to dissuade this woman from finishing the book for this guy or 2) just let her run with it without my damp-blanket comments and killjoy skepticism.

ETA: I did write her a note to encourage some healthy skepticism about this stuff.

Does she have to believe it to ghost-write it?
Does she get paid extra for believing it?
Are you going to get a date out of this one way or the other?
Would she not want to get paid for satisfying some kook's fantasy by writing it up?

[Ray Moscow]

Does she have to believe it to ghost-write it?


I think she's getting paid to write it. I have no idea how much.

She's so enthusiastic about it, I think she would do it for almost nothing, though.

Does she get paid extra for believing it?

Rather less, I think. She was sold on it after watching a Houston ABC-affilate story on it.

Are you going to get a date out of this one way or the other?

I probably could, but my wife would kill me afterwards. :)

Would she not want to get paid for satisfying some kook's fantasy by writing it up?

Well, there's a professional side to her role that I wouldn't discourage -- except that at this point, her name will be on the book, and it won't help her reputation except in woo-woo circles.

[RAFH]

Does she have to believe it to ghost-write it?


I think she's getting paid to write it. I have no idea how much.

She's so enthusiastic about it, I think she would do it for almost nothing, though.

That's too bad.

Does she get paid extra for believing it?

Rather less, I think. She was sold on it after watching a Houston ABC-affilate story on it.

Even worse, but then, where would we be without the true believers?

Are you going to get a date out of this one way or the other?

I probably could, but my wife would kill me afterwards. :)

I understand perfectly. But that does not prohibit you from taking a protective fatherly/brotherly interest. As long as it's not one of those stereotypical families of some stereotypical rural areas.

Would she not want to get paid for satisfying some kook's fantasy by writing it up?

Well, there's a professional side to her role that I wouldn't discourage -- except that at this point, her name will be on the book, and it won't help her reputation except in woo-woo circles.

Oh, that's not good. And that's not exactly ghost-writing. That's essentially doing an interview and signing on to the vision of the interviewee. Then again, the woo-woo circles are large and apparently more than willing to part with their hard earned assets.

[SAWells]

The trouble with this kind of thing is they could be digging through and destroying all kinds of real and valuable archeological remains- Roman and older- in pursuit of fictitious pyramids.

[Lucretius III]

The trouble with this kind of thing is they could be digging through and destroying all kinds of real and valuable archeological remains- Roman and older- in pursuit of fictitious pyramids.

Totally agree.
There does appear to have been something going on at that site at some time in the past( Pre-Roman ,Roman,Medieval who knows ?) and I would be interested to see a proper archaeological team doing a proper dig to find out what it really was.

[Ray Moscow]

Yeah, I think that's the main reason that the real scientists are so against this guy -- he's digging on important sites without any proper methology, and so he's likely to destroy some irreplaceable artifacts without us learning anything.

[Per Ahlberg]

look "natural" to me ,whereas these look to be worked stone
http://irna.lautre.net/IMG/jpg/726518nov.jpg

Actually, these look natural as well. Look carefully at how the longitudinal joints (running into the picture) frequently converge and join up, resulting in small triangular "paving stones" at the apexes. Hard to think why anyone would want to lay paving slabs like that, but it makes a great deal of sense if you interpret this as a natural surface showing two orthogonal planes of jointing that formed at about the same time.

[Ray Moscow]

[

Actually, these look natural as well. Look carefully at how the longitudinal joints (running into the picture) frequently converge and join up, resulting in small triangular "paving stones" at the apexes. Hard to think why anyone would want to lay paving slabs like that, but it makes a great deal of sense if you interpret this as a natural surface showing two orthogonal planes of jointing that formed at about the same time.

OK, this is Bosnia we're talking about. :)

They have a lot of jokes they tell on themselves about how supposedly stupid they are, often with Mujo and Suljo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comedy_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina)being the main fall guys.

[Lucretius III]

Actually, these look natural as well. Look carefully at how the longitudinal joints (running into the picture) frequently converge and join up, resulting in small triangular "paving stones" at the apexes. Hard to think why anyone would want to lay paving slabs like that, but it makes a great deal of sense if you interpret this as a natural surface showing two orthogonal planes of jointing that formed at about the same time.

I was a little bit "worried " about the triangular stones myself, which is why I said "look worked" and why I think some proper archaeologists and geologists really need to be looking at this site ,with no pre conceived idea of what it is they are looking at, in particular no assumption of pyramids

[anthrosciguy]

I was a little bit "worried " about the triangular stones myself, which is why I said "look worked" and why I think some proper archaeologists and geologists really need to be looking at this site ,with no pre conceived idea of what it is they are looking at, in particular no assumption of pyramids

That's been done, and in fact this was mentioned in the first reply to the OP.

[Lucretius III]

I was a little bit "worried " about the triangular stones myself, which is why I said "look worked" and why I think some proper archaeologists and geologists really need to be looking at this site ,with no pre conceived idea of what it is they are looking at, in particular no assumption of pyramids

That's been done, and in fact this was mentioned in the first reply to the OP.


I should have made myself clearer, I was really referring to the "road" ,which to be honest should be easy enough to check ,IF under those "cobble stones" you find signs of artificial levelling of the surface and then a layer of "non natural " gravel I think you could safely say it was a "road".
Dating it may be more difficult I admit

[Ray Moscow]

I don't think any archaeologists dispute that there might be some old roads, tunnels, etc. in the area, since it has been inhabited for a long time (though none are likely be date from 12,000 BCE!).

I don't understand how that's relevant to the "pyramid" hypothesis, though. These guys are digging up some old pavement (or something that looks like it) and saying, "See -- that's man-made!", as though that proved something about the whole hill being a man-made pyramid.

I think Osmanagić, like many "alternative history" and conspiracy advocates, could really benefit by taking a basic course or two in the relevant subjects.