Conscience and 'that still, small voice'

[Christina]

(I know, I start this topic everywhere but I still haven't figured it out).

This is really a question for the theists that have joined. I often hear Christians refer to 'that still, small voice' inside that (I think) refers to the voice of God. How does that differ from what I would think of as my conscience? I don't have any urge to talk you out of it, but I'm trying to understand what it is.

[chesswooog]

As a Christian, I have never understood the description "still, small voice" either, so I am inclined to simply identify it with the conscience as you are.

[Richard]

I think that "still, small voice" is something people think they hear ;)

[Christina]

Someone on another board once said that her conscience compelled her not to do things, but that voice compelled her to go out of her way to do the charitable thing. I thought that was an interesting distinction. I think of both as my conscience.

[Febble]

(I know, I start this topic everywhere but I still haven't figured it out).

This is really a question for the theists that have joined. I often hear Christians refer to 'that still, small voice' inside that (I think) refers to the voice of God. How does that differ from what I would think of as my conscience?

Well, I've never thought it did.

[Christina]

One of the people from the cult that I talked to a lot in PM insisted it was a voice like no other that had nothing to do with a conscience which only reflected our earthly vanities. (It also conveniently only said whatever the cult leader wanted it to say.)

Not that I expect you to defend this since none of you ever said it, but it makes me wonder why some theists think that atheists have no moral compass if they know that they just have a conscience guiding their moral choices like we do.

[Febble]

One of the people from the cult that I talked to a lot in PM insisted it was a voice like no other that had nothing to do with a conscience which only reflected our earthly vanities. (It also conveniently only said whatever the cult leader wanted it to say.)

Not that I expect you to defend this since none of you ever said it, but it makes me wonder why some theists think that atheists have no moral compass if they know that they just have a conscience guiding their moral choices like we do.

Well, I've always thought (and been encouraged to think) that it is dangerous to think of it as an outside voice - you need to use your own reason, otherwise you can't trust it. In fact it's often portrayed as the voice of reason rather than emotion:


Breathe through the heats of our desire
Thy stillness and thy balm
Let sense be dumb, let flesh retire
Speak through the earthquake, wind and fire
Thy still small voice of calm

("Sense", presumably, as in senses, not as in common sense).

Come to think of it, from the same hymn:

Dear Lord and Father of mankind
Forgive our foolish ways
Reclothe us in our rightful mind
In purer lives they service find
In deeper reverence praise.

[Garnet]

My Grandma told me once that she knew when God was talking because the voice was male. Otherwise, it was her own voice and her own conscience.

[RexT]

That voice of wisdom is hardly wise, if it belongs to another. Ask yourself what is its gain if you should listen? What does it want form you? But if it be your own voice and you should listen, who gains is you. You give nothing and gain wisdom. For you will understand your own voice, as only it can speak in your natural tongue. It is not another but your own reason getting through the noise and seeking your benefit. This is wisdom that is yours, it belongs to you, it is there for you, and it cannot be fooled. Whatsoever asks you to follow it, do not. Whatever follows you, let it. For it is this inner voice that follows you all your days and asks nothing of you. It gives you what you need in that moment.

Or so I see it.

[Christina]

My Grandma told me once that she knew when God was talking because the voice was male. Otherwise, it was her own voice and her own conscience.

Well that would make it simple : )

When I pressed the person from the cult about how she knew that it wasn't satan's voice that she was hearing if it wasn't her own conscience and she didn't have much of an answer other than 'when you hear it, you'll understand'.

If I hear voices I'll understand that I'm going to the hospital.

[Garnet]

Well that would make it simple : )

When I pressed the person from the cult about how she knew that it wasn't satan's voice that she was hearing if it wasn't her own conscience and she didn't have much of an answer other than 'when you hear it, you'll understand'.

If I hear voices I'll understand that I'm going to the hospital.

Uh oh. Um....

*considers heading for hospital*

[Ian Nerr]

Interpreting one's own thoughts as coming from an external source is a sign of serious mental illness.

[Christina]

Interpreting one's own thoughts as coming from an external source is a sign of serious mental illness.

I'm pretty sure that's at the bottom of why I keep asking this question. I'm not at all saying that all theists are mentally ill and what I have goes to extremes that make even the most die-hard fundamentalist's beliefs sound rational, but if they're literally hearing voices that they interpret as anything other than the internal sound of their own thoughts I want to know why that isn't seen as delusional. If I said that god was literally talking to me everyone would fly into a panic and stick me in the hospital. But I want to know what it feels like to them and how different it is from a real delusion.

I don't think that most people mean that though. I think they mean that their thoughts are inspired by god and they're having an internal dialog, not that they're having a literal two-way conversation with a separate consciousness.

[Ian Nerr]

When I believed or sort-of believed in God, I would sometimes pray, asking a question, and immediately "get" an answer, but it never really seemed like a voice. It always seemed like my own thoughts.

However, I can see how some people can interpret that kind of thing as coming from God. I wouldn't say that's automatically delusional, but it's definitely on a spectrum going from poetic license to batshit craziness.

[VenDexter]

An interesting take on the internal voice/consciensce is tying it back to a person's locus of control.

Locus of Control

Someone who places their sense of control of the events and outcomes of their life outside of themselves as many traditional religious believers do, tend to see their conscience as being directed or manipulated by the forces of good or evil. As an extension of this, the voice they use mentally to express internal thoughts and cognition is more likely to be tied to the voice of these external sources.

On the other hand, those of us who have no belief in the supernatural, gods, etc. have a more internal locus of control and therefore understand that the voice in our head is simply ours and define it in terms such as conscience.

There are many, many other implications of having an external vs. internal locus of control but the "voice of god" is one of the more diminutive yet interesting.

[Garnet]

I do have voices in my head...several of them. They're internal narration. One of them sounds a lot like Patrick Stewart.

So...should I head to that hospital?

ETA: Cross posted with Ven Dexter. :D

[VenDexter]

I do have voices in my head...several of them. They're internal narration. One of them sounds a lot like Patrick Stewart.

So...should I head to that hospital?

Only if he's telling you that the Borg is after you. :D

Seriously, it's interesting that your internal narration has different voices. Not unhealthy, just interesting.

My internal narration is my voice in a much lower, calmer tone for the most part.

[Garnet]

I'm a little....odd. :D

[Ian Nerr]

I do have voices in my head...several of them. They're internal narration. One of them sounds a lot like Patrick Stewart.

So...should I head to that hospital?

ETA: Cross posted with Ven Dexter. :D

If you know it's in your head and don't think you actually hear it, I wouldn't worry about it.

[Christina]

On the other hand, those of us who have no belief in the supernatural, gods, etc. have a more internal locus of control and therefore understand that the voice in our head is simply ours and define it in terms such as conscience.

I never interpreted anything that was going on as hearing voices. It was more like that 'idea of reference' stuff. I don't know if that's considered external or not. Someone once asked me who it was that I thought was sticking thoughts in my head if I don't believe in god. It wasn't really like that. It was more like I thought that random stuff had something to do with me. I can't really explain it, but it never felt like a voice.

[VenDexter]

I never interpreted anything that was going on as hearing voices. It was more like that 'idea of reference' stuff. I don't know if that's considered external or not. Someone once asked me who it was that I thought was sticking thoughts in my head if I don't believe in god. It wasn't really like that. It was more like I thought that random stuff had something to do with me. I can't really explain it, but it never felt like a voice.

So what type of internal narration do you have? For example, when you're debating about what to have for dinner, do you carry on an internal dialogue?

[Christina]

So what type of internal narration do you have? For example, when you're debating about what to have for dinner, do you carry on an internal dialogue?

No. Theres just a nonstop monologue going on in there. Even when I was really sick I didn't have a dialogue. It makes me laugh just to think of it. People really do that? If sane people have a conversation with themselves, then maybe thinking you're having a conversation with god is not as big of a stretch from normal as it seems to me.

[Garnet]

If you know it's in your head and don't think you actually hear it, I wouldn't worry about it.

I'm not worried about it. Just joshin' around a bit.

I've had internal dialogs going on my whole life. They've never been a problem. I've just come to find out lately that most people don't.

*shrugs* T'ain't nuthin' but a thang.

[VenDexter]

No. Theres just a nonstop monologue going on in there. Even when I was really sick I didn't have a dialogue. It makes me laugh just to think of it. People really do that? If sane people have a conversation with themselves, then maybe thinking you're having a conversation with god is not as big of a stretch from normal as it seems to me.

Internal dialogue is just another term for self talk. Indeed, it is mostly a form of monologue but many if not most people will consciously at one time or another carry on an explicit dialogue when faced with difficult situations or decisions.

Something along the lines of:

"How am I going to pay that outrageous hospital bill?"
"I guess I could try to arrange payments."
"What about the money I have in savings?"
"Damn health insurance company!"
"I need to find better coverage so this doesn't happen again."

And so on...

It's not explicitly two distinct voices having an argument, etc. Which is where the locus of control comes in. If your locus of control is centered around you being the center of a battle between the forces of good and evil then you will view your internal "dialogue" as being influenced by them.

Person: "The neighbor parked his car on my lawn yet again."
Bad: "I should go out there and slash the tires."
Good: "That would be the wrong thing to do."
Bad: "Maybe I should punch him in the face the next time I see him."
Good: "If you do either of those then you'll wind up being fined or arrested. It would be best if you talked with him and then call the police if he refuses to stop."

Whereas those who have an internalized locus of control simply see themselves being frustrated, expressing such, and coming to a rational, logical decision without the influence of external forces.

[Christina]

I'm chasing my tail around in my head trying to think about how I think, and now I'm asking myself questions. It was a monologue until I read that : )

[VenDexter]

I'm chasing my tail around in my head trying to think about how I think, and now I'm asking myself questions. It was a monologue until I read that : )

LOL, sorry didn't mean to spin you around in circles.

Thinking about how we think can really make us think about thinking, huh? :D

[Christina]

David B had a great signature at the Hub for a while about a centipede thinking about how to walk.

[His Noodly Appendage]

I tend to have a stream-of-consciousness narration going on. If I get wrapped up in something it can actually turn into audible muttering.

What really bakes my noodle is this: sometimes I'll interrupt or even entirely forestall the inner monologue, when it's going down a road I don't like, for whatever reason. "Ha. Lucky I don't have... shutup! Don't jinx it!"

What I want to know is - how do I know what I was about to think? Or, if I've already thought it, why do I need to take all that bloody time subvocalising?

[Febble]

What I want to know is - how do I know what I was about to think? Or, if I've already thought it, why do I need to take all that bloody time subvocalising?

Ha!

Caught you out in a moment of dualism!

"You" "know" what you were about to "think" because "you" had already "thought" it. What "you" don't "know" are the words in which "you" would have presented it to "yourself" because those words hadn't yet been formed. And because those words were never formed, the thought remains inaccessible to the processes by which they can be recalled by "you".

But "you" are the whole thing. What you are calling "you" ("I") here IS the process of sentence formation and recall. Thoughts-as-words emerge from the processes by which thoughts are generated. The sensible-sentence generating part of the process is the part of the process that allows them to be stored and recalled as communicable thoughts.

[David B]

David B had a great signature at the Hub for a while about a centipede thinking about how to walk.

Which I just tried to re-use, but found that I was limited to 3 lines:(

David B

[Christina]

What really bakes my noodle is this: sometimes I'll interrupt or even entirely forestall the inner monologue, when it's going down a road I don't like, for whatever reason.

I do that all the time. It's like a mental slap that says "don't go there". It was an acquired skill for me and not something that came naturally. I learned to change the subject in my head because I had to, but I don't like it very much. I can't describe it in philosophical terms, but it's like stopping my mind at the gate and turning around instead of following down that path. I know where the path goes already.

[His Noodly Appendage]

Ha!

Caught you out in a moment of dualism!

"You" "know" what you were about to "think" because "you" had already "thought" it. What "you" don't "know" are the words in which "you" would have presented it to "yourself" because those words hadn't yet been formed. And because those words were never formed, the thought remains inaccessible to the processes by which they can be recalled by "you".

But "you" are the whole thing. What you are calling "you" ("I") here IS the process of sentence formation and recall. Thoughts-as-words emerge from the processes by which thoughts are generated. The sensible-sentence generating part of the process is the part of the process that allows them to be stored and recalled as communicable thoughts.

Heh, nicely put.

I just wish that I didn't waste all that time on ploddingly converting thoughts into communication that, 90% of the time will never be communicated anyway. Just let me use that eyeblink-speed processing for a few minutes at a stretch, and I'll communicate the end result afterwards.

*le sigh*

[Ian Nerr]

Heh, nicely put.

I just wish that I didn't waste all that time on ploddingly converting thoughts into communication that, 90% of the time will never be communicated anyway. Just let me use that eyeblink-speed processing for a few minutes at a stretch, and I'll communicate the end result afterwards.

*le sigh*

Verbalizing your thoughts makes them easier to remember. It's been said that we think only through language but that's obviously not true.

[Christina]

Just let me use that eyeblink-speed processing for a few minutes at a stretch, and I'll communicate the end result afterwards.

Quit finishing your sentences in there then. You're not a bloody idiot ;)

[ravenscape]

Which I just tried to re-use, but found that I was limited to 3 lines:(

David B
Limit bumped to 5 lines. I think we've worked around to that as a limit in one of the TH discussions.

[David B]

Thanks

[fundie]

Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice, and that they dont follow other voices. I have often sensed that God was directing me, either that I should avoid something or should do something, but that is not like a voice. And I have experienced hearing from the Holy Spirit a few times in a way that was like a voice. I was sure that it was not my own thought I was hearing because for one thing it was not what I wanted to hear, and also I didnt have any sense of generating the thought/voice.
Proverbs says we should not trust our own heart, that he that does that is a fool. Instead we should trust in the Lord and follow His direction.
Why is it that people think it is outrageous when Christians say that God spoke to them? They are not surprised that christians pray, that we believe God can hear our prayers. If God can hear our prayers why is it so remarkable for him to speak to us?
The Bible is very matter of fact about God or the Holy Spirit speaking to believers. And in the bible God gives specific messages, not vague feelings.

[Ray Moscow]

Interpreting one's own thoughts as coming from an external source is a sign of serious mental illness.

The line between mental illness and religious experience, if any exists, is pretty vague.

[Febble]

Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice, and that they dont follow other voices. I have often sensed that God was directing me, either that I should avoid something or should do something, but that is not like a voice. And I have experienced hearing from the Holy Spirit a few times in a way that was like a voice. I was sure that it was not my own thought I was hearing because for one thing it was not what I wanted to hear, and also I didnt have any sense of generating the thought/voice.
Proverbs says we should not trust our own heart, that he that does that is a fool. Instead we should trust in the Lord and follow His direction.
Why is it that people think it is outrageous when Christians say that God spoke to them? They are not surprised that christians pray, that we believe God can hear our prayers. If God can hear our prayers why is it so remarkable for him to speak to us?
The Bible is very matter of fact about God or the Holy Spirit speaking to believers. And in the bible God gives specific messages, not vague feelings.

Well, the question that comes to my mind is: how do you know that it is God who is speaking?

[Febble]

Heh, nicely put.

I just wish that I didn't waste all that time on ploddingly converting thoughts into communication that, 90% of the time will never be communicated anyway. Just let me use that eyeblink-speed processing for a few minutes at a stretch, and I'll communicate the end result afterwards.

*le sigh*

Well, Dennett has this nice idea that "conscious" processes are serial processes running on a vast parallel computer. It's because they are serial that they are conscious (can be recalled) but it's also because they are serial that they are slow.

[Christina]

Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice, and that they dont follow other voices. I have often sensed that God was directing me, either that I should avoid something or should do something, but that is not like a voice. And I have experienced hearing from the Holy Spirit a few times in a way that was like a voice. I was sure that it was not my own thought I was hearing because for one thing it was not what I wanted to hear, and also I didnt have any sense of generating the thought/voice.
Proverbs says we should not trust our own heart, that he that does that is a fool. Instead we should trust in the Lord and follow His direction.
Why is it that people think it is outrageous when Christians say that God spoke to them? They are not surprised that christians pray, that we believe God can hear our prayers. If God can hear our prayers why is it so remarkable for him to speak to us?
The Bible is very matter of fact about God or the Holy Spirit speaking to believers. And in the bible God gives specific messages, not vague feelings.

Hi Fundie, and welcome : )

Thank you for your response. I don't find it outrageous that Christians say that God speaks to them, but I don't have a good enough understanding of what form that takes to imagine it myself. I'm an atheist so I'm not at all convinced that there is a God to hear or answer prayers, but I can assume it for the purposes of conversations like this.

There are times when I feel compelled to do something, but I think of it as my conscience guiding me and not as the voice of any external entity. I don't mean this to be insulting, but if I heard a distinctly separate voice I would attribute it to a mental health issue. I don't think that all theists are mentally ill at all, but it's hard for me to know how one would differ from the other. How do you know whether it's the Holy Spirit or something more malevolent talking to you?

[Berthold]

As far as I came to understand, in Catholic teaching it's the conscience, too. Just, they believe it's a God-given thing.

[Christina]

That's what I recall also. We were never encouraged to read the bible ourselves because we supposedly needed it to be interpreted for us through the priests, never mind imagine that God was speaking directly to us in any way. I think that we were supposed to believe that he spoke to the Pope and it trickled down to us through the priests.

[David B]

The line between mental illness and religious experience, if any exists, is pretty vague.

One can gain religious experiences from being put into dissociative states, by, among other things, ritual, by a skilled practitioner who whether he or she knows what she is doing, can put people into dissociative states (like those who conduct Toronto Blessing type revivalist meeting), and by group reinforcement.

I've poste d this link on other sites before, but it is worth repeating.

Experience leads, in my opinion, lots of people to not doubt religion, when they have been led astray by suggestibility and/or positive reinforcemet,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sq-YUdq1OI

And part two

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DylNVUN_3I&feature=related

David B (does not conflate mental illness and religious experience)

[Jobar]

Saw a neat t-shirt not long ago- "You're just jealous because the voices in my head won't talk to you!"

:D

When I was young, a (Southern Baptist) preacher for whom I had considerable respect used to talk about "that still, small voice" a lot. From my own understanding of it, it was supposed to be the voice of your conscience; not the voice of God, but the part of you that knew right from wrong; the soul, perhaps.

Long after I became an atheist, and Rev. Jackson had died, it occurred to me that I should've asked him if Adam had that still, small voice *before* he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Fundie, might you have an answer for that?

[Wordy]

I wrote about a guy "Austin D." who have a book about
"secular conscience" that sounds related doesn't it?

[Jack the Bodiless]

I subvocalize a lot, but I don't recall ever hearing a "small, still voice" saying anything I wasn't already thinking at the time. I vaguely recall a time (aged 10-11 or thereabouts) when I no longer believed in God but still had a tendency to imagine ethical/moral stances as blobs of colour (white for good, black for bad, green for eco-friendly, red for socialist etc) that "I" somehow navigated between, but that soon passed.

Maybe it's just me, or maybe those who have been atheists all their adult lives tend to end up as more "self-integrated" in that respect, with the tendency to imagine a separate external "conscience" either never developing or atrophying (however you care to spin that...). I also don't seem to have what others describe as a "crisis of conscience": sometimes the best course of action is unclear, and sometimes I feel torn between different desires, and sometimes I make choices that I later regret (for various reasons), but somehow that doesn't sound the same as the phenomenon that others describe: being pushed around by impulses that seem "external" to themselves, or having a "good side" and a "bad side". There's just... me.

[CelticChic]

Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice, and that they dont follow other voices. I have often sensed that God was directing me, either that I should avoid something or should do something, but that is not like a voice. And I have experienced hearing from the Holy Spirit a few times in a way that was like a voice. I was sure that it was not my own thought I was hearing because for one thing it was not what I wanted to hear, and also I didnt have any sense of generating the thought/voice.
Proverbs says we should not trust our own heart, that he that does that is a fool. Instead we should trust in the Lord and follow His direction.
Why is it that people think it is outrageous when Christians say that God spoke to them? They are not surprised that christians pray, that we believe God can hear our prayers. If God can hear our prayers why is it so remarkable for him to speak to us?
The Bible is very matter of fact about God or the Holy Spirit speaking to believers. And in the bible God gives specific messages, not vague feelings.

And if I said that Thor, Zeus or sprites spoke to me and heard my prayers you would say I was nuts. I'm not surprised anyone prays, but the rest is a huge assumption on your part. How can you know that the rest of the world accepts it when you say god hears your prayers, cares and talks back to you? I certainly don't accept any of the above and I never have.

As for something in your head saying things you don't want to hear, many of us do that and it's just us. I sincerely doubt that when you tell yourself you can't go on that nice vacation because you can't afford it you *wanted* to hear that, that god is speaking then? If he has to speak to you about such minor things are you nothing more than a puppet for this god? If it's yourself rather than god how do you tell the difference between god telling you something you'd rather not hear and you telling yourself that? I think that's the question being asked here. We all have an internal voice, so what's the difference and how do you know?

[Jack the Bodiless]

Why is it that people think it is outrageous when Christians say that God spoke to them? They are not surprised that christians pray, that we believe God can hear our prayers. If God can hear our prayers why is it so remarkable for him to speak to us?
The Bible is very matter of fact about God or the Holy Spirit speaking to believers. And in the bible God gives specific messages, not vague feelings.
I still find it rather odd that many Christians insist that "God speaks to them", but nevertheless try to justify their beliefs by quoting the Bible.

Why refer to the Bible, if you have a direct line to God? What exact words did God use when he told you to refer to the Bible (if indeed he did)? If you choose to take some parts literally and some parts allegorically: how did God explain that to you (and did he speak slowly enough for you to take dictation regarding the books, chapters and verses to take literally)? If you chose to take the entire Bible literally (OK, maybe excepting the parables and some obviously poetic/metaphorical language): what were the exact words of this instruction from God, and are you sure you remember them and have interpreted them correctly?