Aquarium Hints & Tips For Deadman

[Calilasseia]

I take it that hobbies and leisure time pastimes go in General Discussion, so I'm putting this here so as not to clutter further E&O.

Deadman asked me about the business of setting up an aquarium. So, here's my answer.

[1] Yes, setting up a freshwater aquarium is a LOT easier than setting up a marine aquarium. First, the technology required to keep a freshwater aquarium running is much less expensive than that required for a marine aquarium. Second, the margin of error that a freshwater aquarist has with respect to water chemistry management is considerably greater than that available to a marine aquarist - marine coral reef fishes are notorious for being sensitive to even small changes in water chemistry, whilst many freshwater fishes are native to habitats that undergo large seasonal changes in water chemistry and have adapted the osmoregulatory machinery to survive such changes. Note that this does not mean that they can survive those same changes taking place in the space of a few minutes, but that's a different story! Third, not only is the capital cost of the aquarium to begin with much less for a freshwater setup, so is the capital cost of the fishes themselves, due to the fact that many freshwater fish species for the aquarium trade are routinely bred in captivity.

[2] Maintenance of a freshwater aquarium is likely to be a LOT less intensive than that of a marine aquarium. A marine aquarium requires a LOT of hands-on attention to salinity levels, regular ammonia & nitrite level checks, periodic addition of trace elements, precise control of photoperiod (which is critical in a reef aquarium containing live corals) and in the case of a reef aquarium with live corals, requires a FAR more expensive lighting set up in order to provide those corals with the levels of illumination that they require in order for their symbiotic zoozanthellae to function (if the zooxanthellae die, so do the corals). Water changes, similarly, have to be performed with a good deal of skill with respect to precise temperature matching and the careful addition of the replacement water to the marine aquarium whilst swapping out the old water. This is a non-trivial aspect of maintenance for a marine aquarium. Freshwater aquaria are MUCH easier to manage in this regard, not least because you can, depending upon the kind of setup you wish to construct, have veritable forests of aquatic plants growing in your aquarium that will provide additional assistance with respect to nitrogen cycle management.

[3] In my case, the aquarium with the Panda Catfish is "high maintenance" by freshwater standards. This means I change the water twice per week. An operation that in my 24" × 12" × 12" aquarium, takes approximately 40 minutes including the gravel vacuum cleaning (which is performed using a Heath Robinson contraption formed from a lemonade bottle and a length of siphon hose whose total cost was about 50p). The hard part in my case is the physical labour of lugging buckets from the kitchen to the aquarium because a 15 litre bucket is a bulky mass of inconvenient shape. However, aside from that, the principal activities are feeding (takes all of about 15 seconds each time) and watching the fish in action (the pleasurable bit). of course, in my case, I'm talking about a mature aquarium that's been in continuous operation since December 1994. In the early stages, you're looking at more work, but it's worth it in the end.

[4] Your scope with freshwater aquaria is wide as regards the species you wish to keep. Obtain at least one good manual on fishkeeping, preferably more, before starting. One of the rules that applies here is that every hour spent in planning beforehand, and studying such concepts as the nitrogen cycle and how it applies to fishes, is likely to save you a lot of heartache and expense further down the line. This involves not only making careful selections of species for your first aquarium on the basis of relative hardiness (i.e., don't launch into Discus or freshwater stingrays as your first fishes because they are expensive, specialised and require levels of care approaching that of the marines) but selection on the basis of behavioural compatibility too. In other words, don't put Neon Tetras in with Oscars (because once the Oscars put on some body mass, the Neon Tetras become lunch) and don't put Angel Fish in with Tiger Barbs (because Tiger Barbs are notorious fin nippers and will tear the Angel Fishes' long fins to shreds). With respect to manuals, good modern ones include those by Gina Sandford, or any of the better books from TFH Publications by Warren Burgess or Herbert Axelrod. An excellent older book to obtain if you can, which not only contains much of continued relevance to aquarium maintenance today, but which gives you an interesting historical perspective, is Ye Olde Venerable Innes Book, as we aquarists know it, more properly known as Exotic Aquarium Fishes by Dr William T. Innes. Whilst old (first editions are VERY old!) and whilst modern technology has moved on and provided options not available in Innes' day, his words are still sagely to this day because he laid down the basic principles in their correct form for the first time in a complete text. You'll probably find the language quaint and amusing in that book, but it's well worth adding to your aquarium book collection.

[5] If you're looking at something with complex behaviour, chances are you'll be hankering after Cichlids. At this point, I would say to you that you should plan the entire aquarium around the Cichlids, and only introduce other fishes that are likely to be compatible with them and capable of surviving their attentions once their well-developed and strong territorial instincts assert themselves (particularly if the Cichlids decide to mate and breed, which many will do in the aquarium with relatively little input from the aquarist other than good housekeeping). Prepare yourself in advance for territoriality and possible combat, provide your Cichlids with as much space as you can afford, study the group thoroughly so that you know which fishes to avoid as your first Cichlids (i.e., big, aggressive species such as Parachromis managuensis that need a 250 gallon aquarium to do them justice, or delicate specialist fishes such as Discus and Uarus) and if you want to keep other fishes with the Cichlids, think about some of the hardier Dwarf Cichlids such as Mikrogeophagus altispinosa, or better still, fishes such as Leatacara curviceps and my particular favourite among the Cichlids, Anomalochromis thomasi. These latter two can be recommended to a beginner because they have all the nice, intricate parental behaviour of Cichlids but minus the psychotic aggression of something like, say, Heros octofasciatus, the infamous Jack Dempsey, which was well named after the former world heavyweight champion boxer. Both Laetacara curviceps and Anomalochromis thomasi are modest in size, place less demands on space than many other Cichlids, are attentive parents when they do breed, and are far more tolerant of other fishes in the aquarium than the more usual Cichlid staples such as Convict Cichlids or Oscars. With the likes of Laetacara curviceps and Anomalochromis thomasi, you could set up a community including other fishes such as Lemon Tetras that will shoal nicely and provide quite a display, and you can pop in the odd Bristlenose Catfish (Ancistrus temmincki or a relation - there's numerous species to choose from) among the bottom feeders. With quite a few other Cichlids, your options with respect to companions are much more restricted. As an example, one fish that will almost certainly demand a species aquarium is Neetroplus nematopus, which as a juvenile seems innocuous enough, but when puberty kicks in and sexual maturity is reached proves that you have bought a ticking time bomb as it sets about systematically exterminating anything it considers to be a threat to its future family, including i numerous documented cases, other Cichlids larger than itself!

[Goldie]

I can vouch that Cichlids are the most interesting fish. They have personalities... and will constantly be moving things in the tank... building nests and arranging things to their liking. :)

[deadman_932]

Wow. As is your wont, Cali, you've been a great help. I'll pick up those books immediately; I like to study things carefully first. And thank you, Goldie :) Eeeeee...I haven't had pets for a long time because I *hate* seeing them die, but I think I can handle fish, plus they're nice to look at.
Thanks for the guidance!

[Elka]

Freshwater aquaria are MUCH easier to manage in this regard, not least because you can, depending upon the kind of setup you wish to construct, have veritable forests of aquatic plants growing in your aquarium that will provide additional assistance with respect to nitrogen cycle management.

Outstanding post as usual Cal, but I'm afraid I have to disagree with you about freshwater aquatic plants in aquaria. Beginners should not attempt to raise fish and plants at the same time and expect to be successful.

Major frustration is the likely result.

Lighting is an issue for growing plants if you aren't experienced with the technology as is maintaining proper micronutrient balances. Matching fish, plants and the water qualities they both require comes with experience (and plants almost always come with other unwanted hitchhikers like algae and snails).

Better to start with a few fish in a largish tank and add as experience is acquired.

My 2 cents.

Elká

[Calilasseia]

Well when it comes to snails, Elká, there's a simple solution for those if you don't want them. Set up a small quarantine tank for the plants, pop the plants in, dose the quarantine tank with Copper Sulphate solution. Copper is lethal to aquatic invertebrates in very small doses, which is why it's used in a wide variety of fish medicines. So it'll not only deal with the snails, but it'll kill off most other hitch hikers.

In any case, you should ALWAYS be thinking about having a small hospital/quarantine tank on standby in case it's needed.

As for plants, my problem is keeping the growth rate down to an acceptable level. My Amazon Swordplant was pruned down to just 6 leaves two months ago as part of an emergency measure to deal with a blanket weed invasion. To ensure the blanket weed didn't come back, I put my female Flag fish in the aquarium with the Swordplant in, and two months later the Swordplant is staging a campaign for world domination. It's got 50+ leaves on it and looks as if I never pruned it. My Java Moss grows at a rate that leaves other aquarists' eyes out on stalks when they see it (I can supply bagfuls of the stuff at short notice to anyone wanting it for breeding purposes for egglayers) and I've made a fair bit of money selling surplus Java Fern back to the shop. And all I have for illumination is a single 7500K colour temperature Arcadia Freshwater fluorescent tube.

Now if you're going to grow something like Cabomba or the red variety of Alternanthera sessilis then you need to carpet bomb the aquarium with light, but be prepared for a major algal outbreak in the early days while you're bedding things in if you start with full-intensity floodlighting for difficult plant. Basically, if you can obtain Java Moss growing on bogwood (or cultivate your own as I did and haven't looked back since)you can create that "underwater rainforest" look in about 3 months, and it's easy to maintain too. The trouble usually arises from trying to cultivate beautiful but difficult plants such as Madagascar Lace Leaf or Red Ludwigia. Madagascar Lace Leaf is a pig to cultivate even for an expert, and usually requires trace element dosing to keep it in top condition. Likewise, people get a shock when they order a large batch of Cryptocoryne only for the leaves to die off in a rotting mess. Trick with those is to order in odd ones and twos, acclimatise in the hospital tank to your water, then when it starts growing again, transfer it to the main aquarium. Once it's acclimatised, it'll grow at a modest rate, but eventually look impressive depending on species - willisii is a nice small species for the more modest aquarium, but if you have the space to do it justice, blassii is a big showpiece plant. Cryptocoryne species are shade loving low-light plants and won't take kindly to being carpet bombed with the lighting level required for a Cabomba.

If you're looking at more intense lighthing than Crypts like, then Amazon Swords again provide you with about 50 species to choose from (probably more now, my info on the species list is about 15 years out of date). Echinodorus tenellus, the Pigmy Chain Sword, is a good plant for creating that foreground carpet of dwarf plants over time if that's the look you're after. Echinodorus bleheri is a medium sized one, and the one that's staging a campaign for world domination in my Panda Catfish aquarium. If you have a really BIG aquarium, you can go for something like Echinodorus grandiflorus that can reach 4 feet tall and grow a huge crown of leaves that can be up to 4 inches across in a fine specimen. If you're really lucky and conditions are right, it'll flower too!

However, DON'T put any plants in with fishes such as Silver Dollars or the plants will end up as an expensive lunch for the Silver Dollars! Quite a few of the disc-shaped South American Characins are herbivores, this includes the Metynnis and Myloplus species among the ones that are likely to remain a manageable size. Under NO circumstances buy Pacus - these things reach four feet in length and are food fishes for native Amazon peoples, and they grow at a frightening rate. They also need to be kept in a shoal like many other Characins, and become nervous and twitch if they're kept alone - to the point of trying to head-butt their way out of the tank. A 3ft Pacu can crash through plate glass with ease, resulting in an expensive catastrophe that will probably nuke your home insurance premiums for years to come if it happens to you! Avoid these fishes like the plague - they're best left in the Amazon, or kept in public aquaria that have the space for them (and the specially armoured laminated glass for their aquaria that costs around £25-40 per square foot depending on thickness, and which will be needed in colossal quantities for long term housing - got space for a 20,000 gallon tank?).

Other setups that don't need plants include:

[1] Tanks for various big Cichlids - I'm thinking about the serious "bad boys" here such as Parachromis managuensis or the Black Belts and Trimacs. These are 12-16 inch fishes that need around 250 gallons, and they'll just rip up the plants on sight when they're in breeding mode. Decor for these fishes consists of large rocks and pieces of bogwood that are cemented with silicone adhesive to large slates to make them immobile. Oh, and with the bigger Cichlids, put a guard on your heater and proof your filter tubing against attack as well, as they're apt to play with filter tubes and break them. I've known a big male Parachromis managuensis take hold of an aquarium heater in its mouth and launch it out of the water like a Trident missile, which it will do for the amusement it gets from seeing you panic when it does it! Which, despite the entertainment value, is another reason I recommend starting with something less boisterous in the Cichlid line before tackling something like the Jaguar Cichlid.

[2] Rift Lake setups - these are rock biotope aquaria for fishes such as Mbuna (rock-dwellers from Lake Malawi) or the Tropheus and Julidochromis species from Tanganyika. Notable for hard, alkaline water, NO higher plants, and in a Malawian Mbuna setup you deliberately cultivate algae for the fish to graze upon. You could also go for a sandy bottom aquarium for sand sifters such as the Malawian Aulonocara species (drop dead gorgeous some of these are too) but be careful what you mix. DON'T mix Malawi Cichlids with Tanganyikans, stick to fishes from one lake. Also, sitck to one biotope from the lake in question if you're going to run with Rift Lake Cichlids, unless you have a HUGE setup to do the fishes justice. Mixing Aulonocara sand sifters in a Malawi setup with ruffian Mbuna is a recipe for disaster unless the Mbuna are the milder mannered ones and the aquarium is LARGE. Likewise, mixing Mbuna and some of the open water Malawians is a recipe for disaster, because the open water Malawians include big predators such as Nimbochromis venustus that eat Mbuna for lunch in the wild! In the case of Tanganyikans, watch out for Perissodus species - these are lepidophages (scale eaters) that strip scales off the sides of other fishes, and need a species aquarium because they'll de-scale other occupants in a flash. Perissodus eccentricus even has a mouth that opens preferentially to one side to make scale stripping more efficient. Also among the Tanganyikans you have to watch the likes of Altolamprologus compressiceps, which is a specialist predator that eats the eyes of other fishes.

If you want a manageable setup for your first Rift Lake aquarium, I'd go with shell dwellers. These are small Neolamprologus species that live in the shells of dead Neothauma snails in the wild. To create a home for these, litter the bottom of an aquarium with cleaned and sterilised snail shells of the right size (enough so that there's at least 2-3 snail shells per fish) and then add the shell dwellers. They'll set to and treat you to an intricate display of family life right before your eyes with relatively little prompting provided you keep their home clean. Find a French restaurant, tell the chef to save the discarded shells from the escargot ordered by the clientele, and collect them until you have about 30-40 shells. Clean thoroughly, boil them to ensure no rotting matter is left inside, then leave them soaking underwater in hard water for about 4 weeks before introducing them to the aquarium. Once you have your 30-40 snail shells in the aquarium, you can introduce your Neolamprologus and watch them have fun picking the prime shells for their nest sites. These fishes may be small but they're seriously perky and feisty for their size, and also very entertaining but without the downsides of their bigger cousins from elsewhere. Shell dwellers are fun, not too expensive capital cost wise, and at times hilarious to watch.

Oh, and if you fancy something different, you could always run with Transvestite Dwarf Cichlids. Yes, they ARE called that. Their scientific name is - wait for it - Nanochromis transvestitus. These are West African fishes, and by contrast with the East African Rift Lake dwellers, they live in soft, acidic streams and pools, usually accompanied by rainforest leaf litter and fallen bits of tree. These require a fair amount of care and attention vis-a-vis water chemistry and are quite a challenge, but after you've cut your teeth on something less demanding, you could run with these. The name, by the way, arises from the fact that they reverse the usual norm in Cichlids colour scheme wise. Normally, Cichlids have brighter coloured males than females, whereas in the case of Nanochromis transvestitus, the pattern is reversed.

More later when I've caught some sleep and ferreted around some more books etc., to catch up on some of the more unusual things you can house in your aquarium. :)

[Elka]

Well when it comes to snails, Elká, there's a simple solution for those if you don't want them. Set up a small quarantine tank for the plants, pop the plants in, dose the quarantine tank with Copper Sulphate solution. Copper is lethal to aquatic invertebrates in very small doses, which is why it's used in a wide variety of fish medicines. So it'll not only deal with the snails, but it'll kill off most other hitch hikers.

In any case, you should ALWAYS be thinking about having a small hospital/quarantine tank on standby in case it's needed.

Very sound advice but the average beginner doesn't want to set up two tanks to start, but they should.

And all I have for illumination is a single 7500K colour temperature Arcadia Freshwater fluorescent tube.

How many beginners would understand what you mean by a 7500K colour fluorescent tube (you didn't mention wattage per gallon, whether you use magnetic or electronic ballast, compact fluorescent or standard, or what shape/height tank you're talking about.)?

Get my drift?

Elká

[Elka]

Heh, I can't help but mention how many beginners I've walked through an initial setup with a brown algae/diatom infestation. The water here has a high silica content and until the diatoms have exhausted it they will make the tank look ugly and distress the beginner. davey might actually learn something if he tried raising fish.

Then again, probably not!

Elká

[Berthold]

Consideration should be given to water requirements.

There are many species of fish that, in the wild, live in water with the approximate composition of tapwater. They tend to be the ones which will readily breed, and one may have problems to find friends willing to take the young ones ;).

Many attractive species, however, live in water that is extremely low in minerals, and has a pH of around 5. Of them, some veteran pet species such as Pterophyllum scalare and Hyphessobrycon innesi have been bred for so many generations outside the Amazon region that they can take tapwater quality. For many others (I'm not suggesting that you start with Symphysodon :cool:) the right water conditions are necessary. In older aquaristic literature you will probably find that starting with distilled water would be ideal, but too expensive. Meanwhile, there are inexpensive (to buy as well as to maintain) gadgets for reverse osmosis. The gravel and the stones have to be non-carbonaceous in this case, or the water would soon get tapwater composition.

[Calilasseia]

Over in the other thread Deadman cited that his water was practically liquid rock in terms of mineral content. In which case, South American fishes are out, but Rift Lake Cichlids will LOVE that water. I'll refer everyone to this table (http://www.aqua-correct.dk/dk1skw/uk-waterhardness-tabel.html) (you'll have to scroll down the page to find the table) so that various hardness units can be compared.

The unit most in use over here in the UK is °dH - German Hardness Degrees. Water that is 8°dH or less is suitable for South American fishes, though some of them prefer it as low as 2°dH or even less. Rift Lake Cichlids, on the other hand, start at around 30°dH for Lake Malawi fishes, and for Tanganyikans this can go to 60°dH and beyond. So if your water is alkaline liquid rock, then shell dewllers such as Neolamprologus ocellatus provide an excellent choice of fish for a 20 gallon species setup, whch will house 2 males and 4 females provided that you supply enough snail shells. If you can't find genuine Neothauma shells, then cleaned marine mollusc shells of similar shape and size will act as a substitute - these fishes don't care that you're not supplying actual genuine Neothauma snail shells, just so long as they're the right size and shape.

Don't bother getting colourful shells, they'll end up coated in algae in no time. To act as a pH buffer, you will be looking at a calcareous gravel for a Tanganyikan setup, and possibly the odd bit of tufa Rock in there for decoration too. Shell dweller aquaria tend not to look "pretty" in the "oh look at that underwater rainforest" mode, but with a little ingenuity you can create something that isn't too far removed from a shellie's natural habitat that also looks quite reasonable for a living room.

Species of shell dweller to look out for include:

[1] Neolamprologus brevis

http://www.cichlidae.com/gallery/images/p02347.jpg

[2] N. calliurus

http://www.cichlidae.com/gallery/images/p02025.jpg

[3] N. multifasciatus

http://www.cichlidae.com/gallery/images/p00389.jpg

[3] N. similis

http://www.cichlidae.com/gallery/images/p00520.jpg

[4] N. wauthioni

http://www.cichlidae.com/gallery/images/p00718.jpg

Here is a forum devoted just to shell dwellers (http://www.shelldwellers.com/) that you can join if you get hooked on these little guys.

Note that several of them are listed under the old Genus Lamprologus instead of Neolamprologus. The attractive L. stappersi is one of these, as is L. ocellatus. Be prepared for these fishes to move around taxonomically as they are still under active review!

Bacially, provide LOTS of shells for them to occupy, and make sure that the shell openings are all accessible. Then, when you add the fishes, watch them start rearranging things to their liking! N. multifasciatus and L. stappersi in particular will engage in wholesale rearrangement of your decor just for the fun of it. You'llhave hours of fun watching them. :)

By the way, thanks to taxonomy being in flux somewhat, check your species identities with care. Not ALL members of the respective Genera are small shell dwellers! For example, Neolamprologius brichardi, the Princess of Burundi, is a 4-5 inch fish that occupies a totally different niche and is a LOT more difficult to keep than shellies, but retains popularity because breeding adults are drop dead gorgeous. Considerably hardier, also drop dead gorgeous, but prolematic for a different reason is Neolamprologus leleupi the Daffodil Cichlid, which is brilliant yellow, but the males are out and out psychotic headbangers toward each other, so you're stuck with one male and a harem of females unless you supply a LARGE aquarium.

If you fancy cave dwellers instead of shell dwellers, Julidochromis species (known colloquially as "Julies") have their merits, but you have to watch them carefully because if a mated pair breaks up for some reason, the Genus is notorious for divorces ending in the death of one of the pair. J. regani and J. transcriptus need particular watching in this regard. They also need larger quarters than shellies, though they live in the same water.

For Tanganyikan fishes, you're looking at a pH of 8.5 to 9.0 (yes, THAT alkaline!) and a hardness of anything from 40°dH upwards. Basically, Ozark liquid rock water is probably perfect for them.

By the way, just to show you the kind of extremes that some fishes have adapted to, there's one Rift Lake fish that counts as a bona fide extremophile. Alcolapia alcalicus should give the game away from its taxonomic name alone. It's a native of the remarkable Lake Natron, which is a volcanic soda lake that plays host to about a million pairs of nesting Lesser Flamingos each year, who take advantage of the fact that they can survive and nest in the middle of this moonscape and precious few other organisms can survive there long enough to provide a threat to the chicks. Lake Natron has steaming waters that can reach 50°C, a pH of 10.5 (about the same as a laboratory bench ammonia solution!) and a carbonate hardness (KH) that has been measured at a whopping 7,000°KH. It's basically a lake filled with 4M Sodium Carbonate solution, but Alcolapia alcalicus has managed to eke out a living in this seemingly impossible habitat, grazing on cyanobacteria mats. It's also a mouthbrooder if memory serves. Definitely one for the specialists!

[deadman_932]

How many beginners would understand what you mean by a 7500K colour fluorescent tube
That one, I would, since I had to look at lighting for doing my artwork -- I use three 65-watt 6500k compact fluorescents (they're way cheap) that gets me really close to daylight.

Thanks again for all this info, I like puzzling through these sorts of mix-'N-match problems, so I expect I'll be asking a lot of questions after I finish my initial studies, then picking set-up equipment. Cheers and thanks to you!

[umop apisdn w,I]

Man, I have to point my wife at this thread.

I got her an aquarium for her birthday last year, and since then she seems to have turned killing guppies into a artform...

[Berthold]

Man, I have to point my wife at this thread.

I got her an aquarium for her birthday last year, and since then she seems to have turned killing guppies into a artform...
Must be overdoing something.

The normal thing that happens with guppies is that after a while one has to buy some cichlids ;) .

[Holly]

Man, I have to point my wife at this thread.

I got her an aquarium for her birthday last year, and since then she seems to have turned killing guppies into a artform...
Must be overdoing something.

The normal thing that happens with guppies is that after a while one has to buy some cichlids ;) .

My aquarium at the moment has some Tetras and Danios and a Red Tailed Shark (chosen by the daughter). Every so often a Tetra will get thinner and thinner and then die on me. Although the last death was a group "suicide" by four Tetras who, by the look of it, tried to clean up the filter for the aerator and got stuck to it. In the evening they were fine, swimming around, the next morning they were dead, all stuck to the aerator.

My problem used to be very hard water, so I started getting RO water and that seemed to do the trick, having reduced the deaths quite a bit (except for the mass suicide). I suppose I could try and reintroduce Guppys again, it is just upsetting when the ones that snuff it are the males with the gorgeous colours and the boring ones stay alive. Obviously the gorgeous coloured ones are more delicate (or tasty or both).

[Berthold]

Oh, well:

Tetras, which ones? They may be from low-mineral, acidic waters.

Danios and the Labeo bicolor live naturally in harder, more neutral water (guppies, too).

It would be preferable to keep fish from one geographical region, or at least from regions with similar water conditions. Amazon and Congo are both low-mineral, slightly acidic; from Mexico and SE Asia, the fish have less exotic demands on the water. This is just a rough rule: Individual rivers and lakes may be quite special.

[Calilasseia]

Holly, I'd watch that Red Tailed Shark if I were you.

Red Tailed Sharks are territorial and aggressive Cyprinids that reach 7 inches. Once they start to pack some body mass, they start becoming fractious. Strictly speaking, they're a candidate for an aquarium of at least 55 gallons, and preferably 75, so that they have enough territory to patrol without constantly bumping into other fishes. They are ruthless at dealing with other bottom feeders that encroach on their patch, and they also need watching in the company of smaller shoaling fishes. It's possible your Tetras are being intimidated into not eating by the RTS. If your RTS is approaching 3 inches in length, then it's approaching sexual maturity, and that's when it starts becoming a serious hardcore terrorist in the aquarium.

An RTS is big enough and tough enough to live with Convict Cichlids once it's mature. In fact, it'll even pick fights with them if space is limited! You could be lucky and have a relatively docile one, but 'docile' with this fish is a relative term, and bad tempered ones can be utter berserkers in the wrong aquarium.

Personally, if you're looking for a bottom feeder for your aquarium with the Tetras and Danios, I'd recommend something MUCH more manageable and sociable, such as the delightful little Corydoras metae catfish. These things like to be kept in groups (6 or more), and are among the smaller Corydoras, so they won't outgrow a modest aquarium. They'll engage in cute "tag" antics along the bottom and generally behave like underwater hamsters, and they have a habit of cleaning their eyes by "winking", which makes them even more endearing. I have a related species, Corydoras panda, which is rather more high maintenance but an absolute joy to watch. Mine do funny things such as sit on swaying leaves in the current for all the world like an underwater version of a budgie on a swing, or stick their noses into the bogwood looking for food with their tails wagging like puppies, and they really do exude a truly mammalian level of cuteness at times!

[Dlx2]

Or....you could get a really big tank and toss in an African lungfish. Water quality is....not so much an issue for those.

[deadman_932]

Elka: what was the name of the book you posted that got eaten by the Site Update monster?

I didn't take down the name and I got back online to find posts disappeared -- no doubt by Satan or one of his minions (kidding, Alethias!) Anyway, can you repost it, after you put down the hash pipe? Cheers!

[kazzaqld]

I suppose I could try and reintroduce Guppys again, it is just upsetting when the ones that snuff it are the males with the gorgeous colours and the boring ones stay alive. Obviously the gorgeous coloured ones are more delicate (or tasty or both).

At the moment I'm losing my female guppies? The males will start fighting each other for the remaining harem soon at this rate!

Have put some medicine in the tank, hopefully that will help - and the remaining females seem healthy enough so far x fingers :(

[Zebulon]

There are some very cool native fish that work well for aquariums. We have many beautiful native species that are as "exotic" as any imported tropical fish, because they are much more unusual in aquariums. Some related links:

http://www.nanfa.org/
http://forum.nanfa.org/index.php
http://www.nativefish.org/articles/

I have a Lepomis gibbosus (pumpkinseed sunfish) in a 20 gallon tank in my office. I feed it mostly red wigglers and freeze-dried shrimp, with an assortment of other insects I happen to catch in the house. They'll also eat snails and small fish. Although relatively small in size for freshwater fish, they are fairly aggressive, so use caution in tanking them with other fish.

One advantage of native fish is their hardiness. In the wild, they thrive in temperatures ranging from near freezing to bathwater. I caught mine while fishing, and my daughter wanted to keep it. It came home in a 5 gallon bucket, and is very healthy nearly two years later.

Before transporting live native fish, be aware of the laws and regulations in your state.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/rsaunderswt/sunny-1.jpg

[Holly]

I suppose I could try and reintroduce Guppys again, it is just upsetting when the ones that snuff it are the males with the gorgeous colours and the boring ones stay alive. Obviously the gorgeous coloured ones are more delicate (or tasty or both).

At the moment I'm losing my female guppies? The males will start fighting each other for the remaining harem soon at this rate!

Have put some medicine in the tank, hopefully that will help - and the remaining females seem healthy enough so far x fingers :(

I was recomended at the aquarium shop to keep the guppies ratio to two females per male, otherwise the girls get too harassed by the blokes. You are going to have to start replacing the female population to at least equal numbers or your male guppies are going to keep chasing after the few ones left.

[Holly]

Personally, if you're looking for a bottom feeder for your aquarium with the Tetras and Danios, I'd recommend something MUCH more manageable and sociable, such as the delightful little Corydoras metae catfish. These things like to be kept in groups (6 or more), and are among the smaller Corydoras, so they won't outgrow a modest aquarium. They'll engage in cute "tag" antics along the bottom and generally behave like underwater hamsters, and they have a habit of cleaning their eyes by "winking", which makes them even more endearing. I have a related species, Corydoras panda, which is rather more high maintenance but an absolute joy to watch. Mine do funny things such as sit on swaying leaves in the current for all the world like an underwater version of a budgie on a swing, or stick their noses into the bogwood looking for food with their tails wagging like puppies, and they really do exude a truly mammalian level of cuteness at times!

My local aquarium shop has got Corydoras panda, but not Corydoras metae. How much more high maintenance will these guys be if I introduced them to my aquarium once the RTS is gone?

[bovie]

I had a couple of saltwater aquariums while living in Hawaii. Yeah, it's not for beginners. The fish need a lot more TLC than freshwater. Fish compatibility is a big problem. But generally, once the nitrogen cycle was set, then all that was needed was changing out about half the water every month. I got pretty good results with just a subsand filter and a fairly basic external powerfilter. No advanced stuff like protein skimmers and such. More fish got returned to the sea than got buried.

Oh, another monster problem was the saltwater spray getting on everything near the aquarium. Even with a cover, basically anything within a 2m radius should be considered expendable.

[Calilasseia]

My personal experience with Corydoras panda, Holly, is that they do NOT like extremes of pH or mulm in the gravel. Which is why my Panda aquarium receives a regular gravel vac.

You can make one of these from a plastic soft drink bottle and a length of siphon hose, and it'll be just as effective as the custom made gizmos that cost you a small fortune in the shops.

Drill a hole in the bottle cap, smooth it off with a small file if you're fastidious, pop one end of the hose in hot water to soften it, then insert it into the hole in the bottle cap.

Now, chop off the bottom 2/3 of the bottle (depending upon size) so that you have a bell shaped open ended structure.

The bell shaped part of the resulting artefact is pushed into the gravel. You then start the siphoning action and direct the water flow into a handy bucket as you would for siphoning for a normal water change. When you do this, watch the gunk being pulled out of the gravel!

You can experiment with a number of different soft drink bottles to see which one gives the best results. I usually find that the child size soft drink bottles here in the UK are better than the big 2 litre Coke/Pepsi bottles, but what the equivalent to our child size bottles is outside the UK I could only guess at.

Ideally you should use this gravel vac to suck out the mulm once per week to keep Pandas happy. Plus, if you buy Pandas, be sure to obtain a decent sized group in one go. Because of their more avowedly social nature (as is the case with all the smaller Corydoras), you should be looking at a minimum of 8 individuals, and if you have space and finances, 12 is better. I have 14 in my aquarium and their antics are non-stop hilarity from dawn till dusk. :)

The Tetras and Danios in that aquarium will be ideal companions for them if you decide to buy a decent sized group to replace the RTS. If you have features in the aquarium that provide them with cave style hideouts, along with live plants and other features that they can explore and try out their inquisitiveness on, they'll love you. I put mine in a sort of underwater Disneyland of bogwood arches covered in Java Moss and Java Ferns with a big Amazon Sword centrepiece, and right now they're frolicking away happily. But keep those water changes and gravel vacs regular, or they'll go into decline more quickly than other Corys will. Which is why I recommended Corydoras metae as a similar, small and active Cory species that is almost as entertaining, but somewhat hardier if you can obtain it. If you're prepared to give the Pandas regular water changes and gravel vacs once per week, go for them, as they're disarmingly cute and playful (especially if you give them a complex environment with respect to aquarium furnishings to explore) but if constraints are likely to intrude into this schedule in a big way, hold out for metae instead.

Oh, if you do go for the Pandas, give them their nice regular water changes and gravel vacs, and a varied diet, watch for them swimming against currents (in particular bubble streams from airstones, outflow from power filters etc) and also for them swimming up and down the glass in groups of 3 or 4, with the smaller ones apparently rubbing their bellies against the glass whilst the larger one watches. This is the run up to breeding behaviour. If you see this during their juvenile stages, you're doing things right. :)

[Holly]

Thanks Calilasseia. I will see if I can find the Metae in the other aquarium shop I know of in town. I do have a gravel syphon which I use everytime I do a water change, which happens every other week if my brain reminds me. Since I am not always spot on with the water changes, I'll try and find the Coryora Metae and commit to keeping good track of water changes and gravel cleaning with the Panda if I cannot find the other ones.

[Elka]

Elka: what was the name of the book you posted that got eaten by the Site Update monster?

I didn't take down the name and I got back online to find posts disappeared -- no doubt by Satan or one of his minions (kidding, Alethias!) Anyway, can you repost it, after you put down the hash pipe? Cheers!

Heh. The pipe never left my mouf.

The Baensch Aquarium Atlas. The first four have been translated and if you need help with the next two, buzz off.

Elká the wabbit made me do it.

[kazzaqld]

At the moment I'm losing my female guppies? The males will start fighting each other for the remaining harem soon at this rate!

Have put some medicine in the tank, hopefully that will help - and the remaining females seem healthy enough so far x fingers :(

I was recomended at the aquarium shop to keep the guppies ratio to two females per male, otherwise the girls get too harassed by the blokes. You are going to have to start replacing the female population to at least equal numbers or your male guppies are going to keep chasing after the few ones left.

I tried that - bought 2 males and 3 females to "top up" the ones I was given when I bought the tank from a friend moving interstate. Now I have 3 males and (I think) 4 females - they are a little immature to be sure yet.

I had one female dead before I even got them home at which point I put the medicine in and the other about 24 hours later . Since then, no more "floaters" cross fingers - that was Tuesday.......

With any luck the other pet shop in the area will have some healthy females I can get, once I am more confident there won't be any more casualties. I am not a really good pet person, am I! :dunno:

[Holly]

I am not a really good pet person, am I! :dunno:

I wouldn't know. In my experience there are three stages to fish health:

a) Swimming around happily - perfectly healthy
b) Swimming funny - uh oh, something's going wrong
c) Floating upside down - let's go get the net...

Once they are on stage b the best you can do is find out if you've got some sort of illness or water inbalance in the tank and treat it ASAP (and probably put the funny swimming fish on its own so that the others don't pick on it and nibble it to death).

[Elka]

There are some very cool native fish that work well for aquariums. We have many beautiful native species that are as "exotic" as any imported tropical fish, because they are much more unusual in aquariums. Some related links:

http://www.nanfa.org/
http://forum.nanfa.org/index.php
http://www.nativefish.org/articles/

I have a Lepomis gibbosus (pumpkinseed sunfish) in a 20 gallon tank in my office. I feed it mostly red wigglers and freeze-dried shrimp, with an assortment of other insects I happen to catch in the house. They'll also eat snails and small fish. Although relatively small in size for freshwater fish, they are fairly aggressive, so use caution in tanking them with other fish.

One advantage of native fish is their hardiness. In the wild, they thrive in temperatures ranging from near freezing to bathwater. I caught mine while fishing, and my daughter wanted to keep it. It came home in a 5 gallon bucket, and is very healthy nearly two years later.

Before transporting live native fish, be aware of the laws and regulations in your state.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/rsaunderswt/sunny-1.jpg

The red portion is overgeneralized.

Images of Missouri Saddled Darters in breeding regalia attached.
Elká

[Holly]

Well, got myself some Corydora Metae once the shark had been moved to her own private mansion, and they are really quite cute and nice to watch. I've only got four of them, since that's all they had at the shop, but it seems to me that with the size of my tank the four of them should be alright. Thanks for the suggestion of buying them. Now let's hope they do not snuff it (at £6.00 each they better stay alive for at least a couple of months...)

[Elka]

I am not a really good pet person, am I! :dunno:

I wouldn't know. In my experience there are three stages to fish health:

a) Swimming around happily - perfectly healthy
b) Swimming funny - uh oh, something's going wrong
c) Floating upside down - let's go get the net...

Once they are on stage b the best you can do is find out if you've got some sort of illness or water inbalance in the tank and treat it ASAP (and probably put the funny swimming fish on its own so that the others don't pick on it and nibble it to death).

Holly, the point is to prevent things from getting to point b as best you can.

Do you have a quarantine tank for new acquisitions? It would have been better to leave the RTS where it was and quarantine the new Cory's for a few weeks.

Do you have a water test kit and what parameters do you regularly monitor?

Do you perform regular water changes? How often? Do you test your water source for changing parameters every time? My tap water changes quite a bit depending on water levels in the river and what recent weather has been like.

What kind of filtration do you use and how often do you perform maintenance on it?

Give us more info so appropriate advice may be given.

Elká

[Holly]

I am not a really good pet person, am I! :dunno:

I wouldn't know. In my experience there are three stages to fish health:

a) Swimming around happily - perfectly healthy
b) Swimming funny - uh oh, something's going wrong
c) Floating upside down - let's go get the net...

Once they are on stage b the best you can do is find out if you've got some sort of illness or water inbalance in the tank and treat it ASAP (and probably put the funny swimming fish on its own so that the others don't pick on it and nibble it to death).

Holly, the point is to prevent things from getting to point b as best you can.

Do you have a quarantine tank for new acquisitions? It would have been better to leave the RTS where it was and quarantine the new Cory's for a few weeks.

Do you have a water test kit and what parameters do you regularly monitor?

Do you perform regular water changes? How often? Do you test your water source for changing parameters every time? My tap water changes quite a bit depending on water levels in the river and what recent weather has been like.

What kind of filtration do you use and how often do you perform maintenance on it?

Give us more info so appropriate advice may be given.

Elká

Elká, the three stages to fish health was a joke.

I do care about my fish. I carry out regular water changes, I make sure my filters are checked and changed or washed regularly and I use RO water because my tap water is terribly hard and when it changes it's to the worse. Yes, I do monitor my water and I do try and make sure that my fish never reach stage two.

[Dlx2]

One of the most important things I can think of is researching the needs of your fish before getting it. Most of the fish generally offered for sale tend to be picky about water quality, and often require different conditions. Additionally, many of the fish offered for sale are juveniles which will get very large as adults. A very common fish in the trade is something called Pangasius hypopthalmus, and is sometimes sold under the name "Iridescent shark." It looks like this:

http://www.petfish.net/pix/artI/Iridescent-marissa_blaszko.jpg

Unscrupulous fish dealers will say that it won't need much room and will stay small. The truth is, an adult looks more or less like this:

http://www.fishbase.org/images/thumbnails/jpg/tn_Pasan_u3.jpg

And that's if you're lucky. If they sell you the closely related Pangasius gigas, an adult is more likely to look like this:

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/images/GiantCatfish-WWF.jpg

A similar problem exists with the reptile trade as well. There are several species of snake which top out around 20-25 feet and 150 lbs, and several species of lizard that top out around 9 feet and also about 150 lbs are commonly sold as cute and inexpensive babies. So, someone brings home an animal that looks like this:

http://photo.pet-cockatiel.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/normal_P5130290.JPG

or this:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1297/898290566_74d0953d86.jpg?v=0

And they're surprised when that animal grows into this:

http://www.rfadventures.com/images/Animals/Reptiles/lizards/water-monitor-bg-1.jpg

Or this:

http://growabrain.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/giant_snake.jpg

Don't even get me started on pet stores that sell baby alligators.

But yes. Research your fish before bringing them home. Here, Cali did most of the research for you, which is rare and incredibly fortuitous. There's nothing wrong with keeping a big fish (or reptile), but you need to know how big it will get and know that you'll be able to handle it and provide appropriate housing for it.

Just a few thoughts.

[deadman_932]

I'm not going to get fish that are inappropriate for the tanks I buy ( I recall one gal trying to pawn off a black Pacu on me)...I also avoid all critters taken by destructive or otherwise unsound methods. Hell, I try to avoid foods and other products that don't fit my criteria. It was easier when I didn't know about such things -- I've been pretty obsessive about researching for decades now.

[Dlx2]

I'm not going to get fish that are inappropriate for the tanks I buy ( I recall one gal trying to pawn off a black Pacu on me)...I also avoid all critters taken by destructive or otherwise unsound methods. Hell, I try to avoid foods and other products that don't fit my criteria. It was easier when I didn't know about such things -- I've been pretty obsessive about researching for decades now.

Awesome!

[Elka]

Elká, the three stages to fish health was a joke.

I do care about my fish. I carry out regular water changes, I make sure my filters are checked and changed or washed regularly and I use RO water because my tap water is terribly hard and when it changes it's to the worse. Yes, I do monitor my water and I do try and make sure that my fish never reach stage two.

Scrubbing egg off my face. I should know better than to ask questions like I did at a place like this but old habits die hard.

Elká

[Calilasseia]

Six dollars each for Corydoras metae?

That sounds like a LOT to pay for one of the fishes that here in the UK is one of the commoner Corys. Of course I'm not sure what the situation is in the US, but usually, fishes there are cheaper than here.

Oh, if you can get 2 more, and bump up the shoal to 6, you'll see them become even more playful. There should be room for 2 more if you only have small Tetras and Danios sharing that aquarium with them.

If they spawn at some future point in time, you'll have fun raising the babies. Not especially prolific, a big female will lay about 30 eggs max, but when they spawn, it's like watching a Chip 'n' Dale cartoon played at quadruple speed. :D Fecundity varies widely across the Corys - metae and my Corydoras panda produce small numbers of eggs, whilst at the other extreme, Corydoras zygatus produces a whopping 1,200 eggs.

Baby Corys are cute. And change colour from juvenile to adult. In fact, some species look totally different as juveniles to their adult appearance, the most extreme example being Corydoras rabauti, which is a fish with a stripe along its back as an adult, but whose juvenile colouration is a three-way vertical partition between equal zones of orange, black and white!

More on Corydoras metae from PlanetCatfish (http://planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=24), which is your one stop shop for all things Catfish. :)

Sadly, all of the photos on the web of Corydoras rabauti are of adults for some reason, so I can't show you the massive colour contrast between the juveniles. Be advised, however, that if your metae breed, the juveniles may undergo some colour changes as well, though nowhere near as extreme. also be advised that metae fry have a habit of becoming rather sensitive to water chemistry changes at between 4 & 6 weeks, so if you ever try raising baby ones from your adults, they could prove a handful during that critical time in their lives (which oddly enough corresponds roughly to the time when Corydoras panda juveniles are at their most likely to experience attrition).

[kazzaqld]

Well, the medicine must have done the trick - my guppies are doing well at the moment - growing and swimming happily.

I do think I will try to get some more females as the only adult one I have is being harassed by the males - she has found a neat hiding spot!

Cleaned the filter yesterday and will change some water this weekend - so hopefully all will continue to go well.

We need a fish smiley :D

[Dlx2]

Six dollars each for Corydoras metae?

I've found that the cost of purchasing fish (or any animal, really) is significantly outweighed by the cost of housing the animal, not to mention the cost of maintaining the animal. There are certainly some exceptions ($10,000 USD koi, for instance) but few people will find themselves caring for such an animal.

[Holly]

Six dollars each for Corydoras metae?

That sounds like a LOT to pay for one of the fishes that here in the UK is one of the commoner Corys. Of course I'm not sure what the situation is in the US, but usually, fishes there are cheaper than here.

No, no, £6 each, I live in Brighton, in the UK.

Oh, if you can get 2 more, and bump up the shoal to 6, you'll see them become even more playful. There should be room for 2 more if you only have small Tetras and Danios sharing that aquarium with them.

I'll see if they get any more Corys at the local aquarium shop. So far teh four of them seem to be having a whale of a time together. I am sure one of them was actually blowing bubbles the other evening...

If they spawn at some future point in time, you'll have fun raising the babies. Not especially prolific, a big female will lay about 30 eggs max, but when they spawn, it's like watching a Chip 'n' Dale cartoon played at quadruple speed. :D Fecundity varies widely across the Corys - metae and my Corydoras panda produce small numbers of eggs, whilst at the other extreme, Corydoras zygatus produces a whopping 1,200 eggs.

It's not so much as if they spawn but if the eggs will make it to hatching, if I do not notice them and manage to get them into some sort of small breeding tank there is a high chance they will become free food for the rest of the aquarium.

More on Corydoras metae from PlanetCatfish (http://planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=24), which is your one stop shop for all things Catfish. :)

I'll take a look there later then. Thanks for the link.

Sadly, all of the photos on the web of Corydoras rabauti are of adults for some reason, so I can't show you the massive colour contrast between the juveniles. Be advised, however, that if your metae breed, the juveniles may undergo some colour changes as well, though nowhere near as extreme. also be advised that metae fry have a habit of becoming rather sensitive to water chemistry changes at between 4 & 6 weeks, so if you ever try raising baby ones from your adults, they could prove a handful during that critical time in their lives (which oddly enough corresponds roughly to the time when Corydoras panda juveniles are at their most likely to experience attrition).

We'll see if we do get as far as breeding...

Thanks for all the info.

[Calilasseia]

Actually, if you look closely, the "bubble blowing" actually takes place out of the back end. :)

There's a reason for this.

As part of their adaptation to live in slow-flowing waters in the wild, in some cases waters that become stagnant as the dry season cuts off certain bodies of waters once the ambient water levels of the Amazon start receding for the duration, Corydoras have developed the ability to extract Oxygen from atmospheric air.

The mechanism by which they do this is to take a gulp of air from the surface (you'll notice a quick dart to the surface followed by a quick crash dive to the bottom again) which is then swallowed. The Oxygen is extracted via the lining of the gut. However, CO2 is sufficiently soluble in water for all of the exchange of that gas from the fish's metabolism to take place via the gills. In the wild, this has the effect of making any stagnant pools they are trapped in less and less hospitable to fishes that cannot take advantage of atmospheric Oxygen, which suffocate, die, and become food to tide the catfishes over until the rains return.

However, this leaves the catfish with a problem. It now has a bubble of Oxygen depleted air in its gut to expel, to make way for the next one. The simplest solution? Fart, basically.

Oh, by the way, if you have lots of fine leaved bushy plants, or even better still, a big clump of Java Moss, it will be possible for the catfishes to breed and produce some offspring even with the other fishes present. I've had my Pandas produce offspring at a rate of knots, including offspring in the community aquarium alongside my Cardinal Tetras and other fishes, and consequently, if there are places for baby ones to hide until they're too big to be eaten, they'll find them and subsist off food particles that the bigger fishes miss until it's time to make their grand entrance. You would be surprised how easily some Corydoras species can bump up their numbers once they start becoming reproductively enthusiastic. :)

As for cost, well, I'd have thought £6 was a bit much for metae, given that my local shop sells Pandas for £2.95 each. By contrast, one sky high desirable species of Corydoras I'd love to own, but won't be doing for a long while, is Corydoras weitzmani, which are still a rarity in the trade and consequently fetch £24 each.

[Berthold]

An aside: So it is permissible to speak of fishes when referring to pets?

How is this in zoological context?

[yeshi]

yay fellow aquarists :)

currently breeding:

http://kijiji.ebayimg.com/i9/02/k/000/7a/01/71b5_18.JPG?set_id=1C4000 http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:2Hx2pHYnYJcJ:www.petshop-zoomania.com/CICHLIDS/Apistogramma%252520cacatuoides%252520%2527Super%25 2520Red%2527.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:EN88RDeHK1QJ:www.cichlid-fish.com/api-agassizi.jpg http://kijiji.ebayimg.com/i16/03/k/000/7a/51/de52_18.JPG?set_id=1C4000

the fry being from 2mm-3cm big atm in our 8 aquaria :)

les see who gets the latin names first! :eek: (no peeking at pict links pls)

[Arctish]

The fish on the far left are Microgeophagus ramirezi aka Blue Rams. I don't know the middle two but I'm guessing the fish on the right is a Helostoma temmincki aka Kissing Gourami.

[yeshi]

The fish on the far left are Microgeophagus ramirezi aka Blue Rams. I don't know the middle two but I'm guessing the fish on the right is a Helostoma temmincki aka Kissing Gourami.

Ramirezi OK, gourami not - only the color is the same (note the female mating colors on the far one! they are real). The male in front shows strong turquise fin edges too. The fish are not adults though...

[dancer_rnb]

The middle two are dwarf chiclids (apistogrammas?) of some sort.
Some are fairly easy to breed.

[Dlx2]

yay fellow aquarists :)

currently breeding:

http://kijiji.ebayimg.com/i9/02/k/000/7a/01/71b5_18.JPG?set_id=1C4000 http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:2Hx2pHYnYJcJ:www.petshop-zoomania.com/CICHLIDS/Apistogramma%252520cacatuoides%252520%2527Super%25 2520Red%2527.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:EN88RDeHK1QJ:www.cichlid-fish.com/api-agassizi.jpg http://kijiji.ebayimg.com/i16/03/k/000/7a/51/de52_18.JPG?set_id=1C4000

the fry being from 2mm-3cm big atm in our 8 aquaria :)

les see who gets the latin names first! :eek: (no peeking at pict links pls)

Well, they're all cichlids. On the left, as was previously said, is Microgeophagus ramirezi. In the middle are two Apistogramma, A. caucoides, the cockatoo dwarf cichlid, and A. agassizi, Agassiz's dwarf cichlid. On the far right is a Cichlasoma-complex species, but I haven't a clue which. I'm leaning towards Archocentrus nigrifasciatus, but I could be wrong.

[yeshi]

On the far right is a Cichlasoma-complex species, but I haven't a clue which. I'm leaning towards Archocentrus nigrifasciatus, but I could be wrong.

excellent, you got them all - hope you didn't peek at links names!

I cheated a bit: the rightmost is a hybrid w/o latin taxonomy. Methinks its Heros Severum x Cichlasoma Citrinellum x (probably) Nigrofasciatum. They are such fun, very intelligent species (hm, if its a species).

As a prize, you can pick 3-5 of those if you are near Munich, Bavaria :)

[ninewands]

I had a couple of saltwater aquariums while living in Hawaii. Yeah, it's not for beginners. The fish need a lot more TLC than freshwater. Fish compatibility is a big problem. But generally, once the nitrogen cycle was set, then all that was needed was changing out about half the water every month. I got pretty good results with just a subsand filter and a fairly basic external powerfilter. No advanced stuff like protein skimmers and such. More fish got returned to the sea than got buried.

Oh, another monster problem was the saltwater spray getting on everything near the aquarium. Even with a cover, basically anything within a 2m radius should be considered expendable.
I didn't have that problem when I was keeping a reef aquarium and I actually found maintaining the water chemistry and temperature to be simpler than my experiences with freshwater aquaria had been. Of course, I live in an area where the water is hard enough that I almost didn't need to use a calcium supplement! The key to avoiding the salt spray is to minimize your use of air release "bubblers." I relied on the current from a fairly large number of submersible pumps (7 of them in a 55 gallon tank) for primary oxygenation. I had them on timers to turn them on and off, thus varying the currents a la the tidal cycle.

The lighting requirement for a reef tank will be visible on your electric bill each month. I had 4 4-foot 80 watt Aquari-Lux tubes in my hood. Disposing of all that heat to keep the water temperature down can also be a challenge.

I didn't try keeping much in the way of fish because the corals were what I was really interested in and many reef fishes are coral eaters. Just a clownfish or two, some yellow tangs for algae control and a mandarin (because it's behaviors were amusing to me). Other than that, I kept shrimp, anemones, tubeworms and about 8 corals in a 55 gallon tank. My only regret about the experience was that I WISH I had bought a 58 gallon breeder tank instead of the 55, chasing fish with a net among all the live and dead rock in a reef tank is a PITA when it's only 12 inches wide and 18 inches deep. The breeder tank is almost square in cross-section. The increased surface area helps with gas exchange too.

[yeshi]

i have a problem since Easter this year: my huge swarm of Ramirezis (some 200+ fish) are dying from i think TBC: every 2 days there is 1-2 dead fish and 1 with "symptoms" that i tee off to quarantene.

The symptoms are whitish areas on body, or outright bloody wound. We did think its hexamita but no antiparasite medicament ever helped. Treated against bacteria etc. Now, we think its TBC and since we do strick quarantene, we *hope* to have lowered the incidence.

Currently found also a antibiotica-ladden food (i think by Tetra - a common brand here in EU) and will feed them for 7 days on that in hope that intake of antibiotica kills of the tuberculosis bacteria.

*sniff*

Lost like 40+ golden form ramirezis so far and at least same No normal ones.
Hope its not "extinction level event". :(

[kazzaqld]

Well the population decline in my tank is reversing!

We have babies :wiggle:

maybe 5 maybe 6 - they won't stay still long enough to count them!!

They are very tiny and very cute!

[Arctish]

Well the population decline in my tank is reversing!

We have babies :wiggle:

maybe 5 maybe 6 - they won't stay still long enough to count them!!

They are very tiny and very cute!

Congratulations on the new arrivals. I hope they are successful in finding good places to hide. Your adult female might have taken over the only good one to be had.

[yeshi]

Getting rid of TBC bacteria ---

to continue this aquaristic monologue: do you think that TBC bacteria can survive in filter material if i wash it in lukewarm water thoroughly? (would like to keep my good bacteria there). Plan to clean all of aquaria, but the restart is problematic without old filter citizens..

Am i safe to keep the plants after washing them thoroughly?

The gravel i will throw and replace, the stones and tank will get washed in detergent. The fish i will put to quarantene tank with no gravel.

[yeshi]

all the mighty aquarists, and noone to shed some help and advice at all.

[BWE]

i have a problem since Easter this year: my huge swarm of Ramirezis (some 200+ fish) are dying from i think TBC: every 2 days there is 1-2 dead fish and 1 with "symptoms" that i tee off to quarantene.

The symptoms are whitish areas on body, or outright bloody wound. We did think its hexamita but no antiparasite medicament ever helped. Treated against bacteria etc. Now, we think its TBC and since we do strick quarantene, we *hope* to have lowered the incidence.

Currently found also a antibiotica-ladden food (i think by Tetra - a common brand here in EU) and will feed them for 7 days on that in hope that intake of antibiotica kills of the tuberculosis bacteria.

*sniff*

Lost like 40+ golden form ramirezis so far and at least same No normal ones.
Hope its not "extinction level event". :(

Sorry, is this a saltwater tank? The bacterium can make people sick too so wear gloves when you do your cleanup.

If the fish show any symptoms, you probably can't (and maybe shouldn't) save them. If not, quarantine them for a few weeks at least.

You should probably sterilize the tank if you're sure it's TBC. It's hard hard to kill. Meaning, unfortunately, the big goddammit.

[yeshi]

Sorry, is this a saltwater tank? The bacterium can make people sick too so wear gloves when you do your cleanup.

no just your reverse osmosis Orinoco flow one :p
Got rashes all over hands when i dig. No sure if its algae allergy or TBC.
So far only 1 mini ulcer persists [will desinfect], had worse in the army.

If the fish show any symptoms, you probably can't (and maybe shouldn't) save them. If not, quarantine them for a few weeks at least.

it seems we can't save them. Now in separate tank with next batch of antibiotics, still dying at same rate :( The little ones do not grow they just stagnate. Their healty batch brothers are double the size...

You should probably sterilize the tank if you're sure it's TBC. It's hard hard to kill. Meaning, unfortunately, the big goddammit.

didn't want to spend 45€ on biology university test: we rather do this last antibiotica trial - it should be able to kill all but TBC. If it does not, then its TBC.

What about the 5 catfish in there? They never are sick, can they carry on the disease if saved? I cannot kill a single fish on purpose, i'm a Buddhist - means i will keep quarantene tank on for months till its over.. or let the fish out into same lake - which can kill lake fish /or not?

[yeshi]

got these in big tank now:
http://www.cichlidnewsmagazine.com/issues/2005apr/images/37e.jpg

also thinking to add Scatophagus Argus.

[BWE]

What about the 5 catfish in there? They never are sick, can they carry on the disease if saved? I cannot kill a single fish on purpose, i'm a Buddhist - means i will keep quarantene tank on for months till its over.. or let the fish out into same lake - which can kill lake fish /or not?
Well it's a bacteria so if they don't show symptoms after 4 weeks or so you are probably safe.

I'm not super familiar with the the bug, it occasionally gets into fish hatchery ponds and I know they drain and clean out the pond with a sterilizing solution when it does.

I don't know if a fish can simply be a carrier but I wouldn't think so. Catfish also have pretty strong immune systems so it may be they are just not coming down with it.

Wild fish are definitely susceptible.

[dancer_rnb]

Sorry, is this a saltwater tank? The bacterium can make people sick too so wear gloves when you do your cleanup.

no just your reverse osmosis Orinoco flow one :p
Got rashes all over hands when i dig. No sure if its algae allergy or TBC.
So far only 1 mini ulcer persists [will desinfect], had worse in the army.

If the fish show any symptoms, you probably can't (and maybe shouldn't) save them. If not, quarantine them for a few weeks at least.

it seems we can't save them. Now in separate tank with next batch of antibiotics, still dying at same rate :( The little ones do not grow they just stagnate. Their healty batch brothers are double the size...

You should probably sterilize the tank if you're sure it's TBC. It's hard hard to kill. Meaning, unfortunately, the big goddammit.

didn't want to spend 45€ on biology university test: we rather do this last antibiotica trial - it should be able to kill all but TBC. If it does not, then its TBC.

What about the 5 catfish in there? They never are sick, can they carry on the disease if saved? I cannot kill a single fish on purpose, i'm a Buddhist - means i will keep quarantene tank on for months till its over.. or let the fish out into same lake - which can kill lake fish /or not?

DO NOT release non native fish into the wild!

[BWE]

My bad. I read this:
or let the fish out into same lakeAnd assumed they came from the lake. ???

ETA: Actually, yeshi, your army experience must have been traumatic. Those little ulcers will probably really love tendon so you might want to inspect where they are....

oh boy. You're on your own. Good Luck.

[kazzaqld]

Well the population decline in my tank is reversing!

We have babies :wiggle:

maybe 5 maybe 6 - they won't stay still long enough to count them!!

They are very tiny and very cute!

Congratulations on the new arrivals. I hope they are successful in finding good places to hide. Your adult female might have taken over the only good one to be had.

Doing ok so far and I've even had a 2nd batch - and they are really growing fast - I must be doing something right! I know, feeding them! :D

I can't seem to keep on top of the snail population explosion though - any hints?

[Dlx2]

I can't seem to keep on top of the snail population explosion though - any hints?

Get something that eats snails.

Problem solved.

[yeshi]

(on fish TBC)


I'm not super familiar with the the bug, it occasionally gets into fish hatchery ponds and I know they drain and clean out the pond with a sterilizing solution when it does.

I don't know if a fish can simply be a carrier but I wouldn't think so. Catfish also have pretty strong immune systems so it may be they are just not coming down with it.


thx for tips & ideas. I think i will bother the University ppl once more with this question though, as TBC allegedly survives saprophytically in mulm (mull?) and dirt.

DO NOT release non native fish into the wild!

well they would not stand a chance in this cold Germany after autumn.

But once, while still a student (1977?) i released 4-6 full grown Aequidens fish into local pond near the zoo. Years later, i looked into the water and was not sure if its Aequidens or local Sunfish or a hybrid. The perches looked back at me inquisitively. I looked into the pond, inquisitively too hmmm...

[yeshi]

DO NOT release non native fish into the wild!

are you an enemy of globalization? :eek:

les hear the arguments, right now i tend to consider this the best solution.
TBC does not persist in the wild, the critters die too fast to infect on.

Also, potential non-infected ones from the tank can at least live well the summer till october. This way, they'll all die in tank till ca august.

[Dlx2]

les hear the arguments, right now i tend to consider this the best solution.

I completely disagree with you. I tend to consider this absolutely the worst option.

TBC does not persist in the wild, the critters die too fast to infect on.

How do you know? That's what people thought about batrachochytrid for a while, and now it's devastating amphibians across the world.

Mycobacterium is a hardy organism, and can quickly hop from one species to another. I have no idea whether your actions would or would not spark a regional outbreak or not, but it seems highly, highly, highly irresponsible to even try.

Also, potential non-infected ones from the tank can at least live well the summer till october. This way, they'll all die in tank till ca august.

Oh great, so you have non-native fishes living and potentially breeding in the wild. In the US, we've had some serious concerns with Clarias, Hypostomus, Oreochromis, Serrasalmus, Piaractus, Pangasius, Cyprinus, etc. Invasives are actually a serious concern because, in many cases, they outcompete native species, or otherwise destroy the habitat. This is a general problem with the pet trade, too; wild populations of burmese pythons (Python molurus) and Nile monitor lizards (Varanus niloticus) are making short work of the Everglades right now, along with feral cats and feral pigs.

While you may not want to do euthanasia, it's really the best choice. I'd suggest quarantining as many of the healthy-appearing fish in separate tanks as possible (10 gallons per fish on separate water circulation systems). Dispose of the gravel and any aquarium plants; a hospital tank does best without substrate. When the die-off cycle is completed (i.e. you haven't seen hide nor fucking hair of myco for about 3 months) sterilize the remaining aquarium implements (you can probably use a 5% bleach solution, but let it dry thoroughly and rinse several times), place new plants, wood, and rockeries, and slowly reintroduce any fish which survived quarantine. Any ill fish should be euthanized humanely and immediately; you can probably get some sort of anaesthetic from a local exotics veterinarian; it's humane and will end it all quickly without putting the local wildlife at risk.

I really don't care whether you have religious reservations about euthanasia or not. Releasing those fish does no one any good. You're simply releasing a zoonotic disease into the environment along with potentially invasive species.

Also, if you're getting ulcerations on your hand, you should immediately see a doctor and get yourself tested for TB. Freshwater strains of TB are generally not a big deal (if I remember correctly) but they can be transmitted to humans, so you ought to consult with a doctor to make sure you're not at risk for complications. Additionally, any further work that you do in these tanks should be accomplished while wearing rubber or nitrile gloves that reach up at least to your elbows, and probably further if possible. You REALLY want to minimize your exposure to Mycobaterium as much as possible.

I hope this helps convince you to follow up on all this responsibly and safely.

[Berthold]

Oh great, so you have non-native fishes living and potentially breeding in the wild.
Just a meteorological information:

Tropical species don't survive winter here (Bavaria and Austria are rather the same weather-wise).

[Dlx2]

Oh great, so you have non-native fishes living and potentially breeding in the wild.
Just a meteorological information:

Tropical species don't survive winter here (Bavaria and Austria are rather the same weather-wise).

Right, but not all "tropical" species are restricted to tropical climes. There are various species of so-called "tropical" fish that survive in parts of the US where there's some degree of winter.

Additionally, even if introduction of invasive fish species isn't a problem, introducing invasive fish diseases is.

Rule of thumb: don't release exotic pets. Just...don't. If they're healthy, rehome them. You'll have no problem finding someone who'll want your animal. If they're not, and the disease is curable, get them healthy and rehome them. If the disease is terminal, then euthanasia is the humane and environmentally-conscious thing to do.

I'm not trying to be judgmental here, but this is a pretty widespread concern, and while I recognize that Yeshi is trying to be humane here, I think his approach is flawed. Good intentions are not always enough.

[yeshi]

Additionally, even if introduction of invasive fish species isn't a problem, introducing invasive fish diseases is.

Microgeophagus Ramirezi is hardly an invasive species (guess you always see Nile Perch as culprit :rolleyes:) and they are at the bottom of the chain, almost.

But, although all say Mycobacterium is disappearing in the wild, maybe you are right: if it infects humans (at least under skin) then it could come over to other species/fish.

My skin is fine, it was just 1 little ulcer thats now gone.
Will not release the fish then in order not to infect other fish.

The rate of dying has increased after last antibiotica cure trial: 3-4 with symptoms per day go to quarantine, 1-3 die on spot per day :(
so, it IS TBC.

[Elka]

les hear the arguments, right now i tend to consider this the best solution.

I completely disagree with you. I tend to consider this absolutely the worst option.

TBC does not persist in the wild, the critters die too fast to infect on.

How do you know? That's what people thought about batrachochytrid for a while, and now it's devastating amphibians across the world.

Mycobacterium is a hardy organism, and can quickly hop from one species to another. I have no idea whether your actions would or would not spark a regional outbreak or not, but it seems highly, highly, highly irresponsible to even try.

Also, potential non-infected ones from the tank can at least live well the summer till october. This way, they'll all die in tank till ca august.

Oh great, so you have non-native fishes living and potentially breeding in the wild. In the US, we've had some serious concerns with Clarias, Hypostomus, Oreochromis, Serrasalmus, Piaractus, Pangasius, Cyprinus, etc. Invasives are actually a serious concern because, in many cases, they outcompete native species, or otherwise destroy the habitat. This is a general problem with the pet trade, too; wild populations of burmese pythons (Python molurus) and Nile monitor lizards (Varanus niloticus) are making short work of the Everglades right now, along with feral cats and feral pigs.

While you may not want to do euthanasia, it's really the best choice. I'd suggest quarantining as many of the healthy-appearing fish in separate tanks as possible (10 gallons per fish on separate water circulation systems). Dispose of the gravel and any aquarium plants; a hospital tank does best without substrate. When the die-off cycle is completed (i.e. you haven't seen hide nor fucking hair of myco for about 3 months) sterilize the remaining aquarium implements (you can probably use a 5% bleach solution, but let it dry thoroughly and rinse several times), place new plants, wood, and rockeries, and slowly reintroduce any fish which survived quarantine. Any ill fish should be euthanized humanely and immediately; you can probably get some sort of anaesthetic from a local exotics veterinarian; it's humane and will end it all quickly without putting the local wildlife at risk.

I really don't care whether you have religious reservations about euthanasia or not. Releasing those fish does no one any good. You're simply releasing a zoonotic disease into the environment along with potentially invasive species.

Also, if you're getting ulcerations on your hand, you should immediately see a doctor and get yourself tested for TB. Freshwater strains of TB are generally not a big deal (if I remember correctly) but they can be transmitted to humans, so you ought to consult with a doctor to make sure you're not at risk for complications. Additionally, any further work that you do in these tanks should be accomplished while wearing rubber or nitrile gloves that reach up at least to your elbows, and probably further if possible. You REALLY want to minimize your exposure to Mycobaterium as much as possible.

I hope this helps convince you to follow up on all this responsibly and safely.

All I can do is reiterate what dlx wrote.

Never release a fish you've kept in a tank back into the wild even if it's a fish you caught yourself!

Never release a fish you've kept in a tank back into the wild even if it's a fish you caught yourself!

Mycobacteriousus is uncurable whether you are a fish (always fatal) or human (not fatal) but not pleasant to say the least.

The only way to get rid of it is to euthanize the fish, destroy any plants you have and sterilize your tanks, substrate and filter media using sodium hypochlorite and/or hydrogen peroxide or lots of very hot water.

Detergants will not disinfect your tanks and can harm your fish as they are hard to get rid of.

Elká

[Elka]

My skin is fine, it was just 1 little ulcer thats now gone.

The symptoms you describe are exactly what I'd expect from someone infected. It's not fatal but it can leave scars.

Elká

[yeshi]

Mycobacteriousus is uncurable whether you are a fish (always fatal) or human (not fatal) but not pleasant to say the least.

german wiki pages say its not occuring in the wild, only in captivity?
Maybe a lack of proper statistics/observation?

The only way to get rid of it is to euthanize the fish,

we are in process of moving original 300 from 90 gal tank to 30 gal one with no substrate and floating quarantene in it to a 15 gal plastic tank for the remaining 60 or so fish - they never grew any more :(

destroy any plants you have

there are 2 buckets of nice plants now on balcony - is there no way to sterilize/save them? Especially my beautiful anubias - they are hardy, and grow slow.

and sterilize your tanks, substrate and filter media using sodium hypochlorite and/or hydrogen peroxide or lots of very hot water.

the violet crystals?

Detergants will not disinfect your tanks and can harm your fish as they are hard to get rid of.

well we wash them off 3 times after scrubbing. No meaningful qtty can remain.
I thought detergents destroy the bacterial cell membranes np?

[Berthold]

the violet crystals?
Oh no!!

What you mean is potassium permanganate. This produces brown layers of manganese dioxide that are hard to get rid of.

Hydrogen peroxide is a colorless liquid, available as a 30 % solution in water. Take care with the concentrated solution, it makes quite nasty burns on the skin.

[Elka]

Mycobacteriousus is uncurable whether you are a fish (always fatal) or human (not fatal) but not pleasant to say the least.

german wiki pages say its not occuring in the wild, only in captivity?
Maybe a lack of proper statistics/observation?

The only way to get rid of it is to euthanize the fish,

we are in process of moving original 300 from 90 gal tank to 30 gal one with no substrate and floating quarantene in it to a 15 gal plastic tank for the remaining 60 or so fish - they never grew any more :(



there are 2 buckets of nice plants now on balcony - is there no way to sterilize/save them? Especially my beautiful anubias - they are hardy, and grow slow.

and sterilize your tanks, substrate and filter media using sodium hypochlorite and/or hydrogen peroxide or lots of very hot water.

the violet crystals?

Detergants will not disinfect your tanks and can harm your fish as they are hard to get rid of.

well we wash them off 3 times after scrubbing. No meaningful qtty can remain.
I thought detergents destroy the bacterial cell membranes np?


Link (http://www.vims.edu/myco/FAQ.html) to a Mycobacteriosis FAQ dealing with Striped Bass in the Chesapeake Bay and a link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycobacterium_marinum) to the English Wiki page on the specific species that infects fish and humans.

The Wiki page says the disease is treatable (in humans I assume) so I apologize for the incorrect information I posted, but this page (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM055) states,

Unlike most other bacterial diseases, there is no cure for mycobacteriosis. The infection will smolder in infected fish, resulting in chronic health problems and mortality in the population. This situation is not consistent with maintenance of "Good Management Practices" for aquaculturists. Efforts to eliminate infection in affected populations with prolonged use of antibiotics have not been successful medically and are prohibitively expensive.

and,

Therefore, if one fish in a population is diagnosed with the condition, then the entire population must be considered exposed and potentially infected.

The bacteria is present in the wild, I only keep North American fish and some specimens I caught in the wild managed to infect the fish in 3 of my tanks despite going through a lengthy quarantine period.

This is one reason why any fish specimen (fish, plants, invertebrates etc.) kept in an aquarium should never be released into the wild, even if it appears to be healthy.

Another reason as Dlx2 pointed out is the danger of introducing exotics.

The St. Francis River crayfish and the Big Creek crayfish are found in the upper St. Francis River drainage (upstream of Lake Wappapello) in southeastern Missouri and nowhere else in the world. Scientists recently have discovered that an introduced crayfish, the woodland crayfish, has been found in two nearby streams, Stout's Creek near Ironton, and Big Creek near Sam A. Baker State Park.

Woodland crayfish may have been introduced by anglers as bait or by kids told by their parents to release a crayfish they might have brought home. The Black River runs through Johnson's Shut-ins State Park and is only about a 10- to 15-minute drive from Ironton. The woodland crayfish is common in the Black River and, therefore, could have been the source for this introduction.

The introduced woodland crayfish has completely replaced the St. Francis River crayfish in the upper two-thirds of Stout's Creek, and the Big Creek crayfish in much of Big Creek. Both native species are in danger of extinction. Researchers think that this may be because the woodland crayfish is bigger and more aggressive and may interfere with the reproduction of the native species.

From here (http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/2000/01/20.htm)

Sodium hypochlorite or common household bleach is the best way to disinfect a tank IMO. Rinse thoroughly and allow it to dry till no odor remains.

Hydrogen peroxide, H2O2 will work also. It may be possible to disinfect your plants with H2O2 without killing them but I wouldn't risk it.

Detergents are difficult to remove from an aquarium so I wouldn't recommend their use.

Elká

[BWE]

Seconding Elka here: When a suspected infection in brood stock occurs, All members are killed, pond is drained, bleached and cleaned with a steam washer.

[Dlx2]

we are in process of moving original 300 from 90 gal tank to 30 gal one with no substrate and floating quarantene in it to a 15 gal plastic tank for the remaining 60 or so fish - they never grew any more :(

That seems.....really crowded. Really really crowded.

there are 2 buckets of nice plants now on balcony - is there no way to sterilize/save them? Especially my beautiful anubias - they are hardy, and grow slow.

Not much of a chance. At some point, you're going to simply have to accept that you've got some nasty stuff in your tank. It's not worth the risk.

well we wash them off 3 times after scrubbing. No meaningful qtty can remain.

You'd be surprised. A lot of those are highly toxic to fish, as they corrode the gill filaments. Even a tiny quantity is enough to do serious damage.

Doesn't seem worth it. Use a 5% beach solution. The chlorine evaporates after a while, and you don't have to worry about it.

[yeshi]

we are in process of moving original 300 from 90 gal tank to 30 gal one with no substrate and floating quarantene in it to a 15 gal plastic tank for the remaining 60 or so fish - they never grew any more :(

That seems.....really crowded. Really really crowded.

well most of them are just 1/2". As they grow to 1" they die mostly with no visible symptoms overnight :(

there are 2 buckets of nice plants now on balcony - is there no way to sterilize/save them? Especially my beautiful anubias - they are hardy, and grow slow.

Not much of a chance. At some point, you're going to simply have to accept that you've got some nasty stuff in your tank. It's not worth the risk.

*sniff* ok i got anubias all over, now even one with round 6" leaves but the bloody tiger plecos like to eat it. Anyone near Munich like a pair of red tiger plecos really cheap? :)

Doesn't seem worth it. Use a 5% beach solution. The chlorine evaporates after a while, and you don't have to worry about it.

k, prolly right. The drugstore is under my flat.