Secular Humanism? What is it?

[Wordy]

I wrote in the Other Forum. some of you have not access to it.

something totally unexpected did happen to me there today.

A kind of Cultural Clash.

I was talking about something that needed to be better than the secular Humanism that I know from Sweden. Several suggest that Hinduism was
Humanism plus spirituality.

I had tried to tell them that I am not wanting spirituality at all.

so that they suggests Hinduism as something better than secular humanism
to me looks even like a hostile attempt to derail the thread or to Troll heavily.

But they would get angry on me if I wrote like that there.

So it is a genuine clash of cultures.

I mean if I in Sweden would suggest to other secular humanist swedes that
Hinduism is a better version of humanism than their secular humanism they
would think that I am crazy or trapped within a dangerous new religious sect.

I had to log out to not make a total fool of me there.

Are you into Hinduism there too?

To give background. I have looked into cultures and religions and spiritualities and para-normal and UFO and conspiracy theories and occult and SciFi and everything known since some 50 years

If there was anything into Hinduism that resembled secular humanism
then I would know about it. Paul Kurtz would have told me 1985 that
I should look into Hinduism. He didn't so I trust they must be from a
totally other culture than me to even suggest something as odd.

I don't trust they made a Rant n.Rave spook or Lulz or joke on me.

I felt so "devastated" is that a proper word for it? I look it up?

devastated
1. To lay waste; destroy.
2. To overwhelm; confound; stun: was devastated by the rude remark.

shocked and extremely upset

Yes that is what I felt. totally slain to the ground. Destroyed? flabbergasted? Lost to humanity? Gone by the wind? I had to log out
and head for Talk Rational.

Please please what did happen there. I mean they have been active there
for so long that they must know that secular humanism has nothing to learn
from Hinduism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism

Hinduism is a religious tradition [1] that originated in the Indian subcontinent. Hinduism is often referred to as Sanātana Dharma (सनातन धर्म) by its practitioners, a Sanskrit phrase meaning "the eternal law"[2]. Among its roots is the historical Vedic religion of Iron Age India.

Hinduism is often stated to be the "oldest religious tradition" or "oldest living major tradition".[3][4][5][6] It is formed of diverse traditions and types and has no single founder.[7] Hinduism is the world's third largest religion after Christianity and Islam, with approximately a billion adherents, of whom about 905 million live in India.[8] Other countries with large Hindu populations include Nepal, Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Singapore, Mauritius, Fiji, Suriname, Guyana, Trinidad and Tobago, Canada, and the United States.

Hinduism is a diverse system of thought with beliefs spanning monotheism, polytheism,[36] panentheism, pantheism, monism, and atheism. It is sometimes referred to as henotheistic (i.e., involving devotion to a single god while accepting the existence of others), but any such term is an overgeneralization.[37]

Most Hindus believe that the spirit or soul — the true "self" of every person, called the ātman — is eternal.[38] According to the monistic/pantheistic theologies of Hinduism (such as Advaita Vedanta school), this Atman is ultimately indistinct from Brahman, the supreme spirit. Hence, these schools are called non-dualist.[39] The goal of life, according to the Advaita school, is to realize that one's ātman is identical to Brahman, the supreme soul.[40] The Upanishads state that whoever becomes fully aware of the ātman as the innermost core of one's own self realizes an identity with Brahman and thereby reaches moksha (liberation or freedom).[38][41]

and so on? In what way is it better than secular humanism which was the purpose of the thread. To find something better than the secular humanism that I have known about since 1985

Yes I did search through that text for humanism and the word aint there. so what was that all about? A kind of political correctness or what?

I think they got it from this text?

http://www.peoplefirstindia.org/6dharma.htm

Dharma and Universal Values of Humanism
DISCUSSION PAPER
Universal values, Personal law, Religious discourse, Religious conversions

by SK Sharma, People First, September 2000


Dharma is an ancient philosophical concept of India. As propounded in various scriptures, Its attributes, include characteristics such as: rationality, sense of duty, justice, peace, truthfulness, compassion, non-violence, rectitude, humanity, spirituality, tolerance, ethics, service to others, and philanthropy. Dharma thus truly symbolises universal values of humanism and can form the basis of global ethics.

Hinduism is not a religion but "dharma" which means a way of life based on universal values of humanism. Within Hinduism there are various "panths" or religions. "Dharma" has been incorrectly interpreted as "religion" and consequently "dharma-nirpeksh" construed as "secularism", leading to the present confusion in concepts. The official translation of religion is "panth" and of secularism is "panth-nirpeksh". The true interpretation of "Dharma" signifying the above stated attributes can only be "universal values of humanism".

[premjan]

Hinduism is not secular.

[Wordy]

"Dharma" based on universal values of humanism asserts secularism with total acceptance of all faiths whereas the western concept of secularism is of mere tolerance of other religions. Hinduism and Bahai faith are thus truly secular. The third millennium should strive for such true secularism based on universal values of humanism.

That is what that text claim that it is.

[Wordy]

Hinduism = spiritual humanism.

Are you aware of that when I refer to secular humanism and you
write "Hinduism = spiritual humanism." then that is not the same humanism.

compare with this wikipedia text

Secular humanism is a humanist philosophy that upholds reason, ethics and justice, and specifically rejects the supernatural and the spiritual as the basis of moral reflection and decision-making. Like other types of humanism, secular humanism is a life stance focusing on the way human beings can lead good and happy lives.

The term "secular humanism" was coined in the 20th century to make a clear distinction from "religious humanism". A related concept is "scientific humanism", which biologist Edward O. Wilson claimed to be "the only worldview compatible with science's growing knowledge of the real world and the laws of nature".

[premjan]

It isn't secular in the sense of excluding faith which is pretty much what you would like it to mean. It is secular in the sense of including all faiths as well as atheism within its fold. It's ability to do this is due to the adherence to principles like advaita which is a form of naturalism.

[premjan]

Are you aware of that when I refer to secular humanism and you
write "Hinduism = spiritual humanism." then that is not the same humanism.
compare with this wikipedia text

You note that I was trying to point out that it is different from secular humanism. You are however always ready to pick a fight on this topic, in my opinion.

[Wordy]

If I try to start a thread about something better than secular humanism on a forum
dedicated to be " a drop of reason in a pool of confusion" and then you and two others
say that Hinduism is that better humanism then I fail to see that as helpful.

To me that is as close to trolling as one could get. If Hinduism is a better humanism than
secular humanism then they would have told us decades ago. they have not.

It is not me picking a fight at all.

[premjan]

Who said Hinduism is a better humanism? Please develop a slightly thicker skin.

[Wordy]

Why do you have to poke a sharp stick on it?

I created the thread to get suggestions on what is better so to suggest Hinduism is
to say that is better or equal. There is no logical reason to suggest something Hinduism.

[premjan]

I am not poking you at all - please point out one place where I did.

[Wordy]

To suggest Hinduism when I ask for something that would work better than Secular Humanism that is almost as sticking a knife in my back.

That is why I wrote that it has to be a cultural clash. you don't even get how hostile such bad behavior is.

[premjan]

My personal view - Hinduism is not secular, it is spiritual humanism. It doesn't have a problem with the secular approach but it is not in itself secular. Maybe aupmanyav suggested that it is better than secular humanism. But it was posted in the NARP forum which tends to have more of the Hindus and Buddhists. It could be just your choice of forum.

[Wordy]

I would rather join a Neo-Humanism than the old Secular Humanism (SH)
cause AFAIK SH are too politically contaminated with unrealistic views.

SH has very romantic and unrealistic views on what it is like to be human. And now when Post -Modern thoughts are invading and taking over almost all of the "soft" science departments at Universities then the old humanism is not reliable as a source for knowledge so a new humanism is needed.

At least I need it. I've looked into the old humanism since 1964 and it is not reliable.


this is what I wrote explaining why secular humanism is not good enough for me.

They have very unrealistic views on what it is to be a human. so to suggest Hinduism is to miss what the thread is all about. You wrote that hinduism was humanism plus spirituality.

I asked for suggestions that was even less "spiritual" than secular humanism which I claimed have an idealistic view on humans. so I see your posts as trolling.

[Wordy]

But it was posted in the NARP forum which tends to have more of the Hindus and Buddhists. It could be just your choice of forum.

So the Buddhists and the Hindues owns that part of IIDB. I didn't know of that.

So which section would be the better one then? and if I wrote in that section, could
I trust you don't chase me there and don't write about hinduism there?

[premjan]

Obviously you have an allergy to anything that sounds like a religion, so you don't want to pick a forum that has the word "religion" in the title. You could put it almost anywhere else. Check with the mods what is the best place.

[Wordy]

Are you aware of that you responded here without me even mentioning your handle and you have not given me a chance to get a second opinion from others if hinduism is a better humanism than secular humanism. Are you aware that it is only me and you active in the thread.

You could have waited until I got at least a second opinion from somebody not active in that thread over in the other forum.

I wrote that I felt devastated and you didn't care about my feelings at all.

I asked for help here to understand and you just continue the hinduism thing instead of letting me
get a chance to see it from other peoples perspective.

[premjan]

So: you want me to shut up? No problem. I will not reply to anything further in this thread.

[Wordy]

Obviously you have an allergy to anything that sounds like a religion,

I am allergic to anything claimed to be a spirituality and I am very much interested in religions and I feel religious so religions are not something I am allergic to. Spirituality is the word you use.

[premjan]

No response.

[Wordy]

To give a background.

I have searched since 1980 for something that I could refer to as my way of life?
A kind of identity. Atheist as a personal identity didn't work for me after 1980
cause I knew that I felt religious and that seems to be a "no-no" among us atheists.

I know of no other atheist that feel religious. I have searched for it locally here cause we had no internet 1980 as far as I know. I got online about 1996 and maybe joined atheistic forums around 1997? not sure when. That computer crashed.

so most likely my poor English failed me. First I took the wrong section of the Forum.

I am a naive person, I trust that people can see beyond such formal things as sections and too read the intent and not the formal things.

the thread was a desperate asking for help to find something better than I have tested so far.

so to suggest something hat have been tested for thousands of years to me looks like Trolling.

If Hinduism really was that good would not Talk Rational be full of examples and argument for it? I mean it is very well known since Gandhi and all the Yogis that have come to West since 18xx and Theosophy and Madam Blavatsky and so on.

All of New Age can be seen as a Western attempt to make a western version of hinduism. To most of us here Hinduism is not a better version of secular humanism.

So to tell me to look into hinduism is to ridicule my desperate search to survive.

I asked for something I could put trust in. Not to be mocked as to be thin skinned.

[Wordy]

I need an identity I barely stay alive without one so for me that thread was a kind of last chance to get help surviving. I was naive enough to think I could trust people to be helpful.

I have searched since 1980 and my own resources are almost empty.

[premjan]

Assuming you don't mind a response (please correct me if otherwise) neither I nor I think aupmanyav asked you to look into Hinduism. I for one didn't realize that you are looking for something quite deeply. I would say it doesn't matter what you call it, just try to be yourself. You are wordy.

[Wordy]

I would say it doesn't matter what you call it, just try to be yourself. You are wordy. Sadly that doesn't work at all. Wordy fail to work for me.

I need an outer identity. something to refer to as my identity.

I have tested to be just me since 1980 and it fails.

outer identity sound not grammatically not proper english
I 'm not sure what to name it though.

[premjan]

There are many many options - you can be Swedish (I presume you are), or European. You can be rational, human, secular, or religious (if you prefer that). Since you don't like spiritual, don't try that. You can be environmentalist, or technologist, or communist, or if you have a large family, you can be all about your kith and kin. It is upto you to find the larger passion that moves you.

[Wordy]

I did write that I felt chased by you and I started a new thread not mentioning you at all and damn you chase me there too. Could you give me a break please.

[premjan]

I'm not chasing you in particular - just tell me to bugger off next time.

[crazyfingers]

Please try not to get all personal, OK?

Mod observation

[Old Dan]

Wordy, you live in Sweden and you want to learn more about Secular Humanism? Look here: Förbundet Humanisterna (Swedish Humanist Association) (http://www.iheu.org/node/1417).The Swedish Humanist Association is the official Swedish humanist organization with more than 5000 members. Founded in 1979 as a federation of member organizations, the Swedish Humanist Association promotes Humanism and a secular society. It supports and represents people who seek to live ethically valid lives without religious or superstitious beliefs. It is working towards a world without religious privilege or discrimination, where people are free to form their lives on the basis of reason, experience and shared human values.

The Swedish Humanist Association

• promotes a humanist life stance and a secular society.
• scrutinizes and debates religious doctrines and totalitarian ideologies.
• organizes public debates and seminars.
• arranges philosophical and Humanist summer camps for youths.
• publishes the magazine Humanisten (www.humanisten.se), 4 issues per year.
• presents the Ingemar Hedenius Award each year to a prominent advocate of Humanism and rationalism.
• has more than 5000 members.
The direct link: http://www.humanisterna.se

[Eudaimonist]

I don't see how Hinduism is a humanism. Please enlighten me. Include a definition of humanism.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[Wordy]

Wordy, you live in Sweden and you want to learn more about Secular Humanism? Look here: Förbundet Humanisterna (Swedish Humanist Association) (http://www.iheu.org/node/1417).The Swedish Humanist Association is the official Swedish humanist organization with more than 5000 members.

Yes I have been visiting them since 1985 and they are not what I need.
I was paying member also a few years around 1990, I knew many of those
in the Board.

Here is what they are.

(Humanists Sweden are ) working towards a world without religious privilege or discrimination, where people are free to form their lives on the basis of reason, experience and shared human values.

They work for that you and I are free to form our lives ...

They are an organization for human rights activists and that is good in itself.

I need something that helps me get an identity. That actually helps me with
the "form our life" the forming of an identity, to become somebody for oneself.

I don't support Christians or other religions but they help one to "form our life" to an identity.

1. You are worthy cause Jesus loves you. You are special in his eyes.
He has a plan for you.

2. You don't have to be an achiever if you are a Christian. It is Jesus that is the achiever the savior.

Compare to Humanism

1. In Humanism you are just one human among 5000 paying members and nobody loves you. To them your a nobody.

2. You are a nobody until you achieve something that makes them see you. They expect you to already have formed a life, to be somebody. You are on your own in Humanism. Nobody helps you to form your life.

In Christian faith you are somebody cause Jesus gave his life for you and he has a plan for you and he helps you with it and the others helps you with it.

I've tested both. I went to Christians for 3.5 year and Humanists for some 5 years and there is a big difference.

That doesn't mean Christians are good and Humanists are bad. It means what I say. They are different.

1. Christian faith made me somebody not a nobody. Their set up was that way. They had that tradition. Not perfect at all but it felt good to be somebody instead of being a nobody.

2. They helped me to be somebody, they took time and emotional care and empathy and did things like sharing my feelings and supported my growth.

Compare to Humanism where they expected me to already to be somebody that could achieve things for them. They wanted my skills to do things for them. They had no time to share feelings and to help me grow to be somebody. Humanists tradition had no such set up that allowed them to see me as somebody, I was a nobody until I achieved things for them.

A very different approach.

That doesn't mean I support Christian faith in Jesus. I wish one could erase it from history. But it has a different kind of caring about humans that Humanism seems to miss here in Sweden or Europe. Maybe it exists in UU Churches in US but have no resources to recreate it here in Sweden.

You need to be an achiever to recreate such within Humanism here.

Yes I have asked them numerous time and did as early as 1986.

[Wordy]

I don't see how Hinduism is a humanism. Please enlighten me. Include a definition of humanism.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I guess you asked premjan about that? But the answer was also in the quote I gave.

I had not heard about it until yesterday. So it was new to me but that author and three posters at IIDB think hinduism is humanism plus spirituality.

I don't support that view just tried to answer your question.

Wait I quote it again. Need to log out

[Wordy]

I think they got it from this text?

http://www.peoplefirstindia.org/6dharma.htm

Dharma and Universal Values of Humanism
DISCUSSION PAPER
Universal values, Personal law, Religious discourse, Religious conversions

by SK Sharma, People First, September 2000


Dharma is an ancient philosophical concept of India. As propounded in various scriptures, Its attributes, include characteristics such as: rationality, sense of duty, justice, peace, truthfulness, compassion, non-violence, rectitude, humanity, spirituality, tolerance, ethics, service to others, and philanthropy.


Dharma thus truly symbolises universal values of humanism and can form the basis of global ethics.

Hinduism is not a religion but "dharma" which means a way of life based on universal values of humanism. Within Hinduism there are various "panths" or religions. "Dharma" has been incorrectly interpreted as "religion" and consequently "dharma-nirpeksh" construed as "secularism", leading to the present confusion in concepts. The official translation of religion is "panth" and of secularism is "panth-nirpeksh". The true interpretation of "Dharma" signifying the above stated attributes can only be "universal values of humanism".

that is the link and text explaining it. premjan can have his own version or supporting that version.