Science as a career

[Strange Loops]

Hey all,

Just joined up after browsing a bit. The science forum had a thread on members' science background and I saw quite a few professional scientists there.

I'm curious to hear some personal thoughts from those who chose the career, those who almost chose it but didn't, and those who chose it but left. Is it worth it? Do you feel you are stuck in too narrow a field, or spending too much of your numbered years in order to just answer what may end up pretty minor questions to anyone outside your field?

Pragmatically, does it let you live your life *overall* how you would like? i.e. is the pay enough? Did you have to go a long time at very low pay, without insurance, etc.? Freedom to live where you want, or stuck where you can get a position? Is the security of tenure worth it, or does it limit your freedom to change places?

Since many may have gotten doctorates a while back -- do you think the market these days is getting too tight and overcrowded for new doctorates? If someone has to move every year or two throughout their first 5-10 years, and still gets paid pretty piddly amounts (post-docs and adjuncts aren't usually too well-funded), and not even know how long until they'll get on a tenure track position...is it worth it?

Facing a dilemma myself if I want to stay in academic research now that my career is starting for real, or if I should bail for a private sector job where I can pay down some of my enormous debt :) Just curious other peoples' experience/thoughts.

[Ray Moscow]

I'm an engineer who loves to read science but who hasn't done in it much since college (except for some R&D work in catalysis as a young engineer).

My scientists friends seem to enjoy their work for the most part, but I'll let some scientists speak for themselves.

I sometimes regret not staying with science as a career -- in the long run, I think it's about the most important work that one can do.

[RBH]

Hey all,

Just joined up after browsing a bit. The science forum had a thread on members' science background and I saw quite a few professional scientists there.

I'm curious to hear some personal thoughts from those who chose the career, those who almost chose it but didn't, and those who chose it but left. Is it worth it? Do you feel you are stuck in too narrow a field, or spending too much of your numbered years in order to just answer what may end up pretty minor questions to anyone outside your field? In 45 years working in science and technology, I've had three quite distinct "careers" in decade-long (or more) chunks, a little over half of the years in industry/applied work and a llittle less than half in academia, the latter sandwiched between two spells in industry. So no, I can't say I've been stuck in a narrow field.

Pragmatically, does it let you live your life *overall* how you would like? i.e. is the pay enough? Did you have to go a long time at very low pay, without insurance, etc.? Freedom to live where you want, or stuck where you can get a position? Is the security of tenure worth it, or does it limit your freedom to change places?I've been lucky in that respect. I will say that when I resigned a tenured full professorship after 20 years in academia to start a company, about half of my colleagues commented that they envied me and about half thought I was whacko for resigning.Since many may have gotten doctorates a while back -- do you think the market these days is getting too tight and overcrowded for new doctorates? Depends on the field.If someone has to move every year or two throughout their first 5-10 years, and still gets paid pretty piddly amounts (post-docs and adjuncts aren't usually too well-funded), and not even know how long until they'll get on a tenure track position...is it worth it?That can get rough. Visiting Assistant Profs who get into a pattern of a year here, two years there, another year here, can get pretty tired of it. Talk to some people currently in that pattern.

Facing a dilemma myself if I want to stay in academic research now that my career is starting for real, or if I should bail for a private sector job where I can pay down some of my enormous debt :) Just curious other peoples' experience/thoughts.I came out of graduate school debt-free, so I can't speak to this on those grounds. My original plan was to go back into industry when I finished my doctorate, but funding levels for the kind of work I'd been doing (aerospace manned systems design) had dropped during my last two years in grad school so I went off to academia planning to stay there for two years and ended up staying 20.

RBH

[Notta_skeptic]

I'm curious to hear some personal thoughts from those who chose the career, those who almost chose it but didn't, and those who chose it but left.
I left life in research (only a lowly lab tech/grad student) for a couple of reasons: I was in my very early 20s and newly married. My advisor, my department head, and my father (an engineer) all counseled me that a female would need to work 80+ hours a week (or more) just to be taken seriously, and, even then, it was rare for a woman to gain a man's respect. My advisor was pretty angry that I showed up in grad school as a newlywed, and told me point-blank that I was not supposed to have children or a life if I wanted a career in science. I also quit after spending a 16-hour day in a cold room doing an experiment, only to find out that I had missed all the sunlight for the entire day, and it had been a beautiful summer day.

Is it worth it? Do you feel you are stuck in too narrow a field, or spending too much of your numbered years in order to just answer what may end up pretty minor questions to anyone outside your field? I asked this last question to my best friend in college, who was finishing up his doctorate. He couldn't answer, but I recently found out his research has led to him doing a tremendous amount of writing and teaching, and he's won multiple awards for his teaching over the years. When he finished his doctoral program, he was only envisioning a lifetime spent collecting microbial samples and looking at an electron microscope.

You can't tell where life will lead you. Your college years are only the beginning.

Pragmatically, does it let you live your life *overall* how you would like? i.e. is the pay enough? Did you have to go a long time at very low pay, without insurance, etc.? Freedom to live where you want, or stuck where you can get a position? Is the security of tenure worth it, or does it limit your freedom to change places?
It was not going to let me live the life I wanted, so I left it. I imagine that women today don't face the same constraints I did, considering it was in the mid-70s that I left.

But now that I'm back in a university, I see the young tenure-track faculty worry about their futures, their salaries, their grants, etc., coupled with wondering if they can even afford kids. I read a blog where, at one US university, male tenure-track faculty didn't even tell their colleagues when their wives had children, as it would make them seem "less dedicated" than tenure-track faculty without children. I hear lots of complaints about parents in the workforce, and how others have to adapt to these parents when they needed to attend to some emergency or the other with their children. That may be true wherever I go, but I've never heard it so viciously as at an institution of higher ed. I would suggest that some people take their heads out of their asses and look around at the 21st century, but I don't have tenure ;), nor will I be eligible for it.

Since many may have gotten doctorates a while back -- do you think the market these days is getting too tight and overcrowded for new doctorates? If someone has to move every year or two throughout their first 5-10 years, and still gets paid pretty piddly amounts (post-docs and adjuncts aren't usually too well-funded), and not even know how long until they'll get on a tenure track position...is it worth it?
You'll have to decide. It's hard to look at your life and realize you won't be making any substantial money until you're in your late 30s, but, since I was also a teacher, that argument didn't hold water with me. You do what you love - what seems like less than a job and more like an overriding interest.

Facing a dilemma myself if I want to stay in academic research now that my career is starting for real, or if I should bail for a private sector job where I can pay down some of my enormous debt :) Just curious other peoples' experience/thoughts.
Just realize that, whatever you choose, you're not locked in to one career. I've met thousands of former teachers, and hundreds of former research scientists. Making one choice now does not mean that you will have to follow that choice for the rest of your life.

Good luck!

[Strange Loops]

Thanks, I really appreciate the responses. It helps more than you can imagine, to hear from others who understand the situation.

[Jet Black]

Well I'm early on in my career, just about to embark on my 2nd year of postdoc work, and I'm pretty lucky that the area that I work in stands to have a massive impact on human wellbeing, so It's not all that narrow, though my particular piece of the science is quite small, but nevertheless significant. I'm also quite lucky that where I work I can earn enough to support both my wife and myself without her needing to work, which is pretty rare these days. Postdoc work is interesting, I find it far more stimulating than PhD work, which I can tell you now is a nightmare.

As RBH and notta skeptic have said, you aren't locked into one career. I am continuing to learn new stuff and do intend to move in the future, though I am not sure what into. It might be science, or something totally different like animation (another field where you earn bugger all until you're very good at it, heh)... I suspect still in science or at least the business end though.

[hecaterin]

Don't marry a fellow academic :-)

Seriously, the moving around for postdocs and early career contracts can work well if your partner has portable skills. But it can be a major problem if both of you are trying to do it.

[Quizalufagus]

Since many may have gotten doctorates a while back -- do you think the market these days is getting too tight and overcrowded for new doctorates?

At least in the U.S., the market will most likely be making room for the new doctorates in the next few years. The Boomers' retirements will open up tons of tenure track positions. It still won't be easy to get those positions, but it will be much easier than it once was.

[Jet Black]

At least in the U.S., the market will most likely be making room for the new doctorates in the next few years. The Boomers' retirements will open up tons of tenure track positions. It still won't be easy to get those positions, but it will be much easier than it once was.

is there forced retirement in US universities at 65 or something?

[ck1]

I got my Ph.D. in the 1970's. I debated at the time about whether it would be smarter to get an M.D., but I was not at all interested in clinical things. Had I done that, however, my salary would be substantially higher as M.D.'s doing research get salary supplements not available to Ph.D.'s doing the same thing.

I love what I do. I get paid for thinking, and for learning new things. What could be better than that?

I was very lucky in the choices I made and the options I had to chose from. When I started grad school, there were no women profs in my department, but that changed while I was there. My thesis advisor and my post-doc mentor welcomed women students (unlike some other faculty in the same departments.) I have lots of women colleagues, although I have gone to some meetings with few (or no) other women in attendance.

The salaries for young people are really bad and not commensurate with salaries in other professions that require the same amount of education. But it does get better.

The funding situation is bad right now, especially for new investigators. While tenure can provide some job security, some (most?) faculty positions provide only a portion of salary with the expectation that grants provide the rest. I have several colleagues who have had to shut down parts of their research programs for lack of funding. One of my closest colleagues was just forced into an early retirement after a dry spell in his research program. If you are not productive, you don't last long.

People work long hours in science. I have managed to avoid that - mostly. When I was in grad school and working long hours, I got a new office mate - a post-doc. He came in every day at 9 and left by 6. He did as much if not more than anyone else in the lab. I decided I could do that too and I did. I got married and had kids, taking 2 month maternity leaves each time. I get home every day in time to have dinner on the table at a reasonable hour. However, doing science requires a lot of flexibility - I am always prepared to run back to the lab at night (almost never) or on weekends (very often).

Another wonderful perk - travel. Meetings are in nice places in the U.S., Europe and Asia.

[llanitedave]

I don't have a PhD, and I'm not in academia. I'm a field geologist in an area where independent consulting is king. I've been lucky enough to build a career in an area which I believe to be of significant social importance, the money is not bad, the stability is precarious, and nobody thinks less of you for having a family.

Geology has been an up-and-down profession over my career, driven mostly by the value of gold or oil. Right now it's better than it has been for many years, and many people are making good money right out of college. It took me a lot longer to build up to where I was making a decent income, and it will never make me rich.

I love what I'm doing, however, and I don't regret my choice of career for one minute. The work is challenging, intellectually stimulating, varied, and often fun.

Beats selling cars any day.

[Quizalufagus]

At least in the U.S., the market will most likely be making room for the new doctorates in the next few years. The Boomers' retirements will open up tons of tenure track positions. It still won't be easy to get those positions, but it will be much easier than it once was.

is there forced retirement in US universities at 65 or something?

No, but there's nearly universal retirement by ~70 anyway.

[Matty]

i'm a professional scientist but with a pretty atypical carrer path. After a batchelors tech equivalent in Aplied Biology i went straight to work for the marine lab i had done various placments with. Having worked the lab and been to sea with the lab members for free, and proven i could work in a lab witohut killing myself, anyone else, or any results(!!) they were willing to pay me as a tech for as long as it lasted. Unfotunately that was only a couple years before that batch ofr grants dried up.

So by that point, having a half decent amount of real science experience for my age i shifted fields when i landed a tech job at a teaching hospital, not what i ever had in mind but it just about paid the bills (well not really actually but thats London for you) . I did the sci tech job hop every 2-3 years througha couple of cancer research posts and as a senior tech in a Uni until i landed this current post. MOst were great and paid the bills even if not with much left over. I manged to fluke a series of good bosses, with only one total wanker thrown into the mix, and hungrily racked up the experience in a variety of techniques.

I now manage a core research imaging facility, based primarily on the experince i gained at the teaching hospital and subsequent posts. At the time i was a college i barely knew such jobs as mine existed. let alone had ever considered it an option. As a core facilty an allocation of user fees go towards wages along with existing grants. The funding works out that i am paid primarily by a multi user support grant and my two colleagues/staff are paid partly by grant and mostly by user fees. We've also built up the user and equipment base so that it will cover all wages plus maintainance should it need to. I'm on a renewable contract as is everyone, however i kow for sure that this particular service/facility is pretty much necessary for at least 20 labs and so it simply cant die for lack of support, its about as secure a job as i eer expected in scine tbh, i was always of the opinion that unless you are tenured there is mno such thing as security, but its not always that dire, there are broad degrees of security as with most things.

Now, having done the "gain experience whilst being paid shite" for a while (bout 8years) i work 830 -430 Mon Fri and rarely have anything at weekends to do. The money is decent enough for a proper standard of living (mind i had to emigrate to canada to ensure that) and half decent house etc but i'm under no illusions i'm ever going to be loaded.

I dont care though, teh wages are half decent for this bit of Canada if not amazing. Mostly though the love for it is that i have a lot of input into a wide variety of projects from pollutant accumulation in fish eggs to molecular based cancer research and the variety keeps me hungry, and hopefully sharp.

Now like i said, my path is pretty atypical and i luckily got to learn some high end techniques early on which really helped, but my main point is that you never know. Even if you do end up job hopping for a while its important to alway keep your eyes and your options open, and to jump on those prime opportunities when they do arise, and they will. Certainly a willingess to travel helps in research as far as i can tell, being willing to move when you do spot the prime job would seem to be a big plus.

I'm 34 for what its worth. Have been doing this job now for five years , love it, and its onwards and upwards, not bad for a job i knew absolutely nothing of when i was at college.

I dont however, envy new post docs, i have many friend that are exactly that. Trouble is that PHds are the new BSc's, every bugger has one and the market would appear to be saturated which always seems to drive wages down and hours up as you would predict. Thats one of the main reasons i've not been tempted to do one after the fact and despite the odd opportunity tbh.

The post doc friends (medical bio/biochem primarily) i have are split into four main catagoreis nowadays. There are some still in research (bout half i'd imagine) , a couple have switched over to fulltime teaching, both high school and uni, and couple lucked into biotech positions. One is a scientific writer/proofer for some publishing house, and another is an airline pilot(ojkay so he bailed but the rest are still white coated mouse killers!!

Research is far from the only option anyway.

Dont despair, science rocks. Beats working in a fucking cubicle office fro 8 hrs a day thats for sure. You dont hear too many scientist bitch about their jobs non stop like many other fields, i think that is becasue the attrition rate early on is fairly high, but its also got something to do with choosing a career that gets your juices flowing and keeps you interested. Over a lifetime, thats worth more than another ten grand a year for sure.

[Don Alhambra]

I'm a 2nd year postdoc too, just starting to think about getting more funding after my current contract runs out in May 2009.

I'm curious to hear some personal thoughts from those who chose the career, those who almost chose it but didn't, and those who chose it but left. Is it worth it? Do you feel you are stuck in too narrow a field, or spending too much of your numbered years in order to just answer what may end up pretty minor questions to anyone outside your field?

Totally worth it. I love my job. My field is psychology and cognitive neuroscience, and it's still opening up very fast. There are so many interesting questions that it's hard to get bored.

Pragmatically, does it let you live your life *overall* how you would like? i.e. is the pay enough?

I've been a student for years, so any pay is good. :) Seriously though, I can't complain about my pay at all.

Did you have to go a long time at very low pay, without insurance, etc.?

Oddly enough the pay per cost of living is lower here in the UK than in the US... but then we have nationalised healthcare. So if my leg falls off I don't have to pay 6 squillion dollars to have doctors tell me they can't reattach it.

Freedom to live where you want, or stuck where you can get a position?

Both. :) That's the joy and the terror of temporary contracts!

Is the security of tenure worth it, or does it limit your freedom to change places?

No idea. Ask me again in a few years...

Since many may have gotten doctorates a while back -- do you think the market these days is getting too tight and overcrowded for new doctorates?

Depends very much what you get your doctorate in, I think.

If someone has to move every year or two throughout their first 5-10 years, and still gets paid pretty piddly amounts (post-docs and adjuncts aren't usually too well-funded), and not even know how long until they'll get on a tenure track position...is it worth it?

Life is what happens when you're making other plans. I love science, and I get to do lots of it and get paid for it. For me, that's worth it. For others, maybe not.

Facing a dilemma myself if I want to stay in academic research now that my career is starting for real, or if I should bail for a private sector job where I can pay down some of my enormous debt :) Just curious other peoples' experience/thoughts.

I have huge amounts of student loan debt, but precious other debt. However, here student loan debt is linked to inflation so in real terms you pay back no more than you borrow. It might be a different story depending on the kind of debt you have yourself.

[Matty]

i only just had to start paying back my student loans after over ten years of defferal. Canadian exchange rate worked in my favour there ofr a while. Mind i was also one of hte first years in the switch from grants to loans and the ceiling below which you didnt have to pay anything was pretty damn high compared to modern student loans i believe.

Oddly enough the pay per cost of living is lower here in the UK than in the US... For real? How do they ascertain that? Houses per sq ft are at least twice as expensive for teh most part in the UK then most of N America arent they? ?

[Don Alhambra]

Yeah, I meant that you get paid more in the US relative to your cost of living than in the UK.

[Matty]

i'm a dick.

I read your post,even when i quoted it as, "The cost of living is lower in the UK" .

soz.