The Term Eskimo - Insult or valid term? (Split from Town Hall)

[Preno]

This is really interesting, considering the current attempt to eradicate 'eskimo' and other terms for Natives that were originally insults against the nation the name was then used to describe.Actually, "Eskimo" was not originally an insult, although it came to be perceived as one recently in some circles. I wouldn't say it's being "eradicated", though - at least I'm not aware of any synonym proposed in place of "Eskimo".



MODERATION NOTE: This thread was split from a Town Hall discussion (http://talkrational.org/showthread.php?t=7099).

Raven

[jess]

This is really interesting, considering the current attempt to eradicate 'eskimo' and other terms for Natives that were originally insults against the nation the name was then used to describe.Actually, "Eskimo" was not originally an insult, although it came to be perceived as one recently in some circles. I wouldn't say it's being "eradicated", though - at least I'm not aware of any synonym proposed in place of "Eskimo".

You've not realized the term is now Yupik, Inuit and Aleut?

Many Inuit consider Eskimo derogatory, in part because the word was, erroneously, long thought to mean literally “eater of raw meat.”

Sioux and Iroquois are also trying to be supplanted.

[Preno]

This is really interesting, considering the current attempt to eradicate 'eskimo' and other terms for Natives that were originally insults against the nation the name was then used to describe.Actually, "Eskimo" was not originally an insult, although it came to be perceived as one recently in some circles. I wouldn't say it's being "eradicated", though - at least I'm not aware of any synonym proposed in place of "Eskimo".You've not realized the term is now Yupik, Inuit and Aleut?That's not a term, that's 3 terms, 2 of which together form the group called "Eskimo". I'm not aware of any synonym for the word "Eskimo", neither have I noticed linguists avoiding "Eskimo" and "Eskimo-Aleut" languages. Both are perfectly acceptable terms in linguistics. I don't know about ethnography, but I'd be surprised if they used different terms.

[IGExpandingPanda]

This is really interesting, considering the current attempt to eradicate 'eskimo' and other terms for Natives that were originally insults against the nation the name was then used to describe.

Eskimo is considered to be a pejorative in Canada. Keep in mind that Eskimo in modern common use is a blanket term to describe separate peoples who have their own unique cultural identity. I'm not clear on the etymology of eskimo, but think of it like calling a Swede a Norwegian, or a Finn a Swede. There are those who believe eskimo was a term used by other north American tribes to describe the "raw meat eaters" but the Montagnais application could have been snowshoe netters. But it seems clear that eskimo, like German or Finnish, was an outsider term.

German IIRC has roots with the word neighbor. Pole as in Polska (Poland) IIRC has roots with farmer, and had their own slur for Germans which roughly meant stupid mute people.

The preferred terms are those the respective groups pick for them selves, words from the Inuktitut, Inupiaq, Kalaallisut, and Yupik languages.

A better example is the Bantu family of languages, where Bantu is in many ways a close cousin of n-word in English. The Bantu branch is a class of languages where the word bantu pretty much means person or people, but it's use may not be the same all around. A group might not consider them selves to be Bantu. We are talking Swahii to Zulu. I mean no offense by using the word Bantu as it's an apt description and there isn't a replacement term that is more apt. It's too cumbersome to list 500 languages that fall into the same branch. If I wanted to talk about the English branch, I would use Germanic or Indo-European. Finnish or Estonian I'd use Ural branch. Bantu can also be a pejorative exactly in the same way N-word is in English, but there is no replacement term.

[Preno]

Yes.Well, I'm a bit skeptical about that.
Eskimo is considered to be a pejorative in Canada. Keep in mind that Eskimo in modern common use is a blanket term to describe separate peoples who have their own unique cultural identity. I'm not clear on the etymology of eskimo, but think of it like calling a Swede a Norwegian, or a Finn a Swede.I don't understand this analogy. How is calling an Eskimo an Eskimo analogical to calling someone something he's not? A more apt analogy would be Lapp vs. Sámi.

[IGExpandingPanda]

I don't understand this analogy. How is calling an Eskimo an Eskimo analogical to calling someone something he's not? A more apt analogy would be Lapp vs. Sámi.

They are NOT Eskimos. Near as I'm aware, that's an outsider term that groups a bunch of people who have their own languages together. I don't know the roots. It also among the whites was used as a pejorative. I don't know what it means in their respective languages, but as with your Lapp vs. Sámi example, Sámi is certainly off the Finno-Ugric branch of languages. I suspect that Lapp is off the Germanic. I would expect given a choice the Sámi would likely prefer Sámi rather than Laplander, but as most people would not know what Sámi meant, I resort to Laplander as someone could establish basic geographical information from the name.

[Preno]

I don't understand this analogy. How is calling an Eskimo an Eskimo analogical to calling someone something he's not? A more apt analogy would be Lapp vs. Sámi.They are NOT Eskimos. Near as I'm aware, that's an outsider term that groups a bunch of people who have their own languages together.I don't understand where the contradiction is supposed to be. They are Eskimos. "Eskimo" is an outsider term. It's a term that groups a bunch of related peoples (Inuit + Yupik) together - just like a lot of other ethnic names. I don't understand your objection. "Eskimo" is normally used by linguists and ethnographers and I'm not aware of any synonym to substitute for it.
I don't know the roots. It also among the whites was used as a pejorative. I don't know what it means in their respective languages, but as with your Lapp vs. Sámi example, Sámi is certainly off the Finno-Ugric branch of languages. I suspect that Lapp is off the Germanic.Yes, IIRC "lapp" meant a rag or something like that. So basically people who dress in rags.

[IGExpandingPanda]

I don't understand where the contradiction is supposed to be. They are Eskimos. "Eskimo" is an outsider term. It's a term that groups a bunch of related peoples (Inuit + Yupik) together - just like a lot of other ethnic names. I don't understand your objection. "Eskimo" is normally used by linguists and ethnographers and I'm not aware of any synonym to substitute for it.

I have no objection to the term. I don't care really. They don't seem to like it. They have some right to decide what they are called, just like the respective African people have a right to choose what they are called. They took exception to n-word for obvious reasons, so in the 60s black or colored became popular.


Yes, IIRC "lapp" meant a rag or something like that. So basically people who dress in rags.

To be honest, I know very little about the Ural peoples, and use of Lapp as a place name leads me to use the term. But hey, Sami is more accurate, I have no problems use it, just I default to Lapp because I am not aware of anyone who's offended by the term Laplander.

[Preno]

I have no objection to the term. I don't care really. They don't seem to like it. They have some right to decide what they are called, just like the respective African people have a right to choose what they are called. They took exception to n-word for obvious reasons, so in the 60s black or colored became popular.Well, okay. I just thought you said they are NOT Eskimos. I don't know whether they actually consider the designation pejorative, but the fact is that while in Canada, it makes sense to supplant "Eskimo" with "Inuit" because only Inuits live there, in general, Eskimo != Inuit and there is no synonym for "Eskimo". So it's not like we can just switch to "Inuit".
To be honest, I know very little about the Ural peoples, and use of Lapp as a place name leads me to use the term. But hey, Sami is more accurate, I have no problems use it, just I default to Lapp because I am not aware of anyone who's offended by the term Laplander.I think some Sámi are, I don't know to what extent. Anyway, the geographical term used nowadays for the Sámi-inhabiteed areas is "Sápmi" (although "Lappland" seems to be better recognized). "Lappland" is not used much anymore not only because of PC, but also because of geographic confusions ("Lappland" is the name of a province in Finland and Sweden, in Norway, the northernmost region is called "Finnmark"; there is also a historical province of the same name not entirely coextensive with the present ones).

[IGExpandingPanda]

Well, okay. I just thought you said they are NOT Eskimos. I don't know whether they actually consider the designation pejorative, but the fact is that while in Canada, it makes sense to supplant "Eskimo" with "Inuit" because only Inuits live there, in general, Eskimo != Inuit and there is no synonym for "Eskimo". So it's not like we can just switch to "Inuit".

They are not Eskimos, they say they are not, though I have to admit limited exposure, not spending that much time up north.
But you have a valid point, there isn't really a replacement blanket term, so if they want to stop being called Eskimos, propose a new blanket term.

It's like of the Germans up and decided not to be Germans anymore, and want to be called Deutchlanders.

[jess]

Actually, "Eskimo" was not originally an insult, although it came to be perceived as one recently in some circles. I wouldn't say it's being "eradicated", though - at least I'm not aware of any synonym proposed in place of "Eskimo".You've not realized the term is now Yupik, Inuit and Aleut?That's not a term, that's 3 terms, 2 of which together form the group called "Eskimo". I'm not aware of any synonym for the word "Eskimo", neither have I noticed linguists avoiding "Eskimo" and "Eskimo-Aleut" languages. Both are perfectly acceptable terms in linguistics. I don't know about ethnography, but I'd be surprised if they used different terms.
]

That's a nitpick.

Archaelologists and (no offence) Europeans also use the term.

Doesn't mean it's what they want.

[Preno]

You've not realized the term is now Yupik, Inuit and Aleut?That's not a term, that's 3 terms, 2 of which together form the group called "Eskimo". I'm not aware of any synonym for the word "Eskimo", neither have I noticed linguists avoiding "Eskimo" and "Eskimo-Aleut" languages. Both are perfectly acceptable terms in linguistics. I don't know about ethnography, but I'd be surprised if they used different terms.That's a nitpick.

Archaelologists and (no offence) Europeans also use the term.

Doesn't mean it's what they want.Yes, it doesn't mean it's what they want. I don't understand how this supports your claim that there is an attempt to eradicate the term "Eskimo". It's not true that "the term is now Yupik, Inuit and Aleut". It's perfectly ordinary to use "Eskimo" for Inuit+Yupik, and I've never seen any linguist refer to the family in any other way than "Eskimo-Aleut".

I also don't understand how pointing out that there is no suitable term to substitute for "Eskimo" is a nitpick (despite your attempt to pass of "Yupik, Inuit and Aleut" as a term).

[jess]

That's not a term, that's 3 terms, 2 of which together form the group called "Eskimo". I'm not aware of any synonym for the word "Eskimo", neither have I noticed linguists avoiding "Eskimo" and "Eskimo-Aleut" languages. Both are perfectly acceptable terms in linguistics. I don't know about ethnography, but I'd be surprised if they used different terms.That's a nitpick.

Archaelologists and (no offence) Europeans also use the term.

Doesn't mean it's what they want.Yes, it doesn't mean it's what they want. I don't understand how this supports your claim that there is an attempt to eradicate the term "Eskimo". It's not true that "the term is now Yupik, Inuit and Aleut". It's perfectly ordinary to use "Eskimo" for Inuit+Yupik, and I've never seen any linguist refer to the family in any other way than "Eskimo-Aleut".

I also don't understand how pointing out that there is no suitable term to substitute for "Eskimo" is a nitpick (despite your attempt to pass of "Yupik, Inuit and Aleut" as a term).


I'm sorry, your nitpick was That's not a term, that's 3 terms which I bolded for clarity.

Linguists archaeologists et al use the term. It does not mean that that's the current of correct term, just a common one. I assume it'll fade from use.

I don't understand your obsession with a suitable synomyn, either.


I'm willing to accept I could be wrong on this issue, but it doesn't change the fact the popular explanation, even if incorrect, is it was a song in reference to the plague. We often use humor to deal with trama.

What trauma? The 'humor' (what humor?) wasn't added until recently.

By generations of people later.

However, this statement says a whole lot about you.

What the hell?

You've never heard of anyone kicking the bucket? Buying the farm, singing the choir invisible?

It says alot about me, well, I think it says I'm a realist.

I'm willing to admit I could be wrong about the Rosie song, though Scopes could also be wrong as well. rather hard to tell since well, IIRC 1300 England there was not a hell of alot of writing in English. I don't remember exactly when the reign of King James was, but it took the authorized edition of the bible and a ton of pirated Shakespeare quartos to really popularize literacy. I put little faith in Scopes explanation at present, the imagery to me sound like sickness.

But hey, the point is using humor to deal with something tragic. I hardly think it's an insight into my personality.

Which goes back to the death of children being funny. Well it can be, if it's not you. Keep in mind that we've lived with provincial attitudes for some time, and it's perfectly OK for the other guys to suffer, the heathens, the unfaithful, the nonbelievers. It's not really funny to me, but humor can be used as part of a coping mechanism.

I use humor at funerals. I used humor when my dad died. My niece wanted a lock of his hair but rigor mortis set in.

no, the bolded parts again say a lot: it may not be true, but godammit, the people think it is and that's good enough for me!

[IGExpandingPanda]

I'm sorry, your nitpick was That's not a term, that's 3 terms which I bolded for clarity.

Linguists archaeologists et al use the term. It does not mean that that's the current of correct term, just a common one. I assume it'll fade from use.

I don't understand your obsession with a suitable synomyn, either.

no, the bolded parts again say a lot: it may not be true, but godammit, the people think it is and that's good enough for me!

Here's the deal, an esoteric field is going to have their own respective dictionary. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH COMMON USE. Argumentum ad populum works with words because popular use trumps dictionary definitions. Now Eskimos, there are issues. There is the assertion that Eskimo has roots in the Algonquian branch IIRC eater of raw meat. This would seem to not be true at least according to Ives Goddard (Handbook of
North American Indians (Smithsonian, 1984)). But whether it's true or not, there is a perception that the word has roots with an offensive remark over the eating habits. It's hare for me to be sure on the issue since well I'm not an expert in linguistics. I'll have to get a copy of Goddard's article to review his rational. In Canada and Greenland, it is considered to be pejorative and as such the name of the respective tribe is preferred , though in Canada Inuit seems to be the preferred term whether talking about Inuit or not, which that too tends to lead to offense.

To be perfectly clear whether Eskimo was intended to be an offensive pejorative or not is irrelevant, it's perceived as such.

You asked me what the replacement term is, and I gave you three tribe names. That would seem to be preferred, which is not all that silly when you think about it. I'm an American, I'm not an Anglo-anything, I'm not a Cubian, I was born in this country I am an American.

Now, there are terms used which are considered to be offensive or semi-offensive that still exist in popular use or in esoteric fields. When talking about African Americans, I prefer the term black people. I freaking hate the politically correct needly verbose term. Aboriginal Australian is just as bad. Indigenous Australians seems to be the legal term. Negroid is used in scientific circles but is slowly becoming less popular. I don't have any Black Africans in my family, but I do have Africans. When talking about the African languages, I use the term Bantu, even though it too seems to be offensive it's a very apt description for a language family where the root seems to mean people.

Now, this goes back to your assertion that I'm saying,

no, the bolded parts again say a lot: it may not be true, but godammit, the people think it is and that's good enough for me!

Now this is a tad intellectually dishonest, but somewhat accurate. Yupik, Inuit and Aleut are not Eskimos, because they say they are not. They have sovereignty over what they are called in casual conversation, and since they consider them selves to be separate tribes, there is little reason for them to perceive them selfs as one people, well at least historically. Unfortunately the term Inuit became somewhat popular as a blanket term, which obviously doesn't apply to the other tribes. For all I know they might capitulate and go back to Eskimo even if it might not actually mean "raw meat eater."

But you asked for a blanket term. You clearly were not understanding that some people don't like blanket terms, they seem to prefer their respective tribe names. I agree we need a term to describe these specific sub-arctic peoples. If they are all trans-Asian which might be verified by genetics, I would be perfectly calling them trans-Asian sub-arctic people. A little verbose, but not anymore more so than Aboriginal Australian, a term I don't enjoy because it's verbose and presumes all Africans are black. I like black, I like black African. I like black Australian. Short yet descriptive.

Is it loony that urban legends are enough to spark a change in a language? Absolutely. But do a people have the sovereign right to choose their own name? Abso-friggin-lutely! I have no problem if the Germans or the Finnish decided to ask that we use THEIR names to describe them.

[hecaterin]

We often group related peoples together, whether geographically or linguistically. "Scandinavian", for both language and geography, I think. "Germanic" for quite a lot of languages. It's not a racist thing to do, it's just a category.

As I read this, the current linguistic category of "Eskimo" reflects a meaningful linguistic grouping. But that same word is objected to as a description of some of the people, because of its racist history. So there's a clash - I guess that linguistics will eventually change to use a new term. Unless "eskimo" goes like "queer", and the community decides to adopt it for fun subversion.

[Matty]

i dunno about the insult aspect of it one way or the other really but i do know that no one uses the term here, its always "Inuit".

[Berthold]

German IIRC has roots with the word neighbor.
It's funny how English uses the word "German". After all, the English themselves (along with the Scandinavians) are germani, linguistically. In French it happened the other way round: A German tribe, close neighbors of France, the Alemans, were taken as a name for the whole nation.

The Slav word nemec for German means "speechless", and thus is related in meaning to "barbarian" and "Hottentot".

[Barbarian]

Yupik, Inuit and Aleut are not Eskimos, because they say they are not. They have sovereignty over what they are called in casual conversation, and since they consider them selves to be separate tribes, there is little reason for them to perceive them selfs as one people, well at least historically.This reminds me of a Scott Adams cartoon, with Ratbert the rat and Dogbert the dog discussing this very issue. From memory, it goes like this: Ratbert says: every group has the right to be called by the name they choose for themselves. From now on, please call me a rattus, which is the scientific name of my species, instead of the derogatory term 'rat'. Dogbert: fine with me. BTW, please stop calling me a dog; the name I chose for my species is "smarter-than-a-stupid-rattus"...

Also, Inuit. Doesn't that term mean "person" or "true human", as opposed to us subhuman beings?

[Preno]

Also, Inuit. Doesn't that term mean "person" or "true human", as opposed to us subhuman beings?It does (although I doubt it implies they view others as subhumans), but that's perfectly normal in that area. Think Nivkh, Ainu, Luoravetlan (i.e. Chukchi), Tlingit, ...

[Berthold]

Also, Inuit. Doesn't that term mean "person" or "true human", as opposed to us subhuman beings?
When people live in a vast, difficult territory with few contacts to outsiders, I wouldn't find it overly strange that they refer to themselves just as "people".

On the other hand, the Zulu live in an area with many ethnicities, and had an empire of conquest (it has been compared to the Roman empire, in spirit and organization). That "Zulu" means "people", too, is a bit more apt to arouse suspicions as expressed in the quote, than the superficially similar case of the Inuit.

[Barbarian]

Also, Inuit. Doesn't that term mean "person" or "true human", as opposed to us subhuman beings?It does (although I doubt it implies they view others as subhumans), but that's perfectly normal in that area. Think Nivkh, Ainu, Luoravetlan (i.e. Chukchi), Tlingit, ...Or Rrom(a), or even, according to some etymologies, Magyar.

Some people do take offense at such naming practices; e.g. some far-right organizations around here act being offended by the attempt to introduce rroma instead of 'cigány', gypsy, saying that it is demeaning to everyone else, and that it's the gypsies' own damn fault that their traditional name has become tainted and demeaning. It's pretty standard racist stuff.

[FreezBee]

Yes, IIRC "lapp" meant a rag or something like that. So basically people who dress in rags.

Well, the word "lapp" does mean "patch", but it could have had other meanings in earlier times.

- FreezBee

[Berthold]

Oh, by the way, what happened to the term "Amerind"? It was, for a time, thought appropriate for the people who are now usually called Native Americans (excepting those of the Far North ;)).

[Gagundathar Inexplicable]

This from Wikipedia: "The primary reason that Eskimo is considered derogatory is the false[8][9][10][11] perception that it means "eaters of raw meat".[12][7] There are two different etymologies in scientific literature for the term Eskimo. The most well-known comes from Ives Goddard at the Smithsonian Institution , who says it means "Snowshoe netters".[8] Quebec linguist Jose Mailhot, who speaks Innu-aimun (Montagnais) (which Mailhot and Goddard agree is the language from which the word originated), published a definitive study in 1978 stating that it means "people who speak a different language".[10][11]

Nevertheless, while the word is not inherently pejorative, since the 1970s in Canada and Greenland Eskimo has widely been considered offensive, owing to folklore and derogatory usage. In government usage the term has been replaced with Inuit. The preferred term in Canada's Central Arctic is Inuinnaq,[13] and in the eastern Canadian Arctic Inuit. The language is often called Inuktitut, though other local designations are also used."

However, this was also in that same Wiki article: "There are two main groups referred to as Eskimo: Yupik and Inuit. In some indiginous eskimo groups they eat small children when they run out of food. A third group, the Aleut, is related. "

I have a sneaking suspicion that the second sentence was just dropped in as a gratuitous insult.

[Preno]

Oh, by the way, what happened to the term "Amerind"? It was, for a time, thought appropriate for the people who are now usually called Native Americans (excepting those of the Far North ;)).I assume it's because the term is connected to the hypothesis about the Native American languages being genetically related.
Yes, IIRC "lapp" meant a rag or something like that. So basically people who dress in rags.

Well, the word "lapp" does mean "patch", but it could have had other meanings in earlier times.

- FreezBeeApparently, it means/meant both:
O.N. leppr "patch, rag"

(source) (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lap)
lap (Laplander, Lapp, patch, scrap)

(source) (http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/RA/RAG.html)

[FreezBee]

Oh, by the way, what happened to the term "Amerind"? It was, for a time, thought appropriate for the people who are now usually called Native Americans (excepting those of the Far North ;)).I assume it's because the term is connected to the hypothesis about the Native American languages being genetically related.


Well, the word "lapp" does mean "patch", but it could have had other meanings in earlier times.

- FreezBeeApparently, it means/meant both:
O.N. leppr "patch, rag"

(source) (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lap)
lap (Laplander, Lapp, patch, scrap)

(source) (http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/RA/RAG.html)

Ok :notworthy:

- FreezBee