Atheists: do you feel pulled to something higher?

[SMS]

We can all criticize the arguments for God's existence, and I find some criticisms to be quite profound. However, at the end of the day, there is something within me that verifies a higher power. It may not be the Abrahamic conception of God, but it is something within me that perceives and acknowledges this "God".

Does anyone feel the same way?

[BWE]

I think that it's a definitions issue for me. Nominally yes but I see it as a platform issue (or perhaps recursive is a better word). We happen at a particular scale and we recognize scale so we recognize other scales exist. yada yada.

[Rhaedas]

Not really. I perceive reality...existence. Passage of time. No higher power though.

[Flying Buttress]

This may or may not apply -

I don't believe in an after life. Therefore, it stands to reason that my existence on earth is what I have to make count. I'm not earning brownie points with any gods for doing the right thing; I'm not feathering any heavenly beds. If I want to life to be satisfying and meaningful, it's up to me to make it that way.

[SMS]

This may or may not apply -

I don't believe in an after life. Therefore, it stands to reason that my existence on earth is what I have to make count. I'm not earning brownie points with any gods for doing the right thing; I'm not feathering any heavenly beds. If I want to life to be satisfying and meaningful, it's up to me to make it that way.

how existentialist of you.

[DMB]

Well, there's the universe. Perhaps most of us, or at least those who have spent time away from the city lights, are moved by looking at the night sky and pondering the meaning of what we're seeing. Nothing like a god, though.

[Goldie]

This may or may not apply -

I don't believe in an after life. Therefore, it stands to reason that my existence on earth is what I have to make count. I'm not earning brownie points with any gods for doing the right thing; I'm not feathering any heavenly beds. If I want to life to be satisfying and meaningful, it's up to me to make it that way.

I resemble that remark.:D

[muon]

No, not at all.

And I have to take issue with your statement that anything within you "verifies a higher power". How do you know? What makes you confident that this is anything other than an emotion with no reality outside your neurons?

[SteveF]

Well, I do enjoy climbing mountains.

[Tinker Grey]

No, to the OP.

[DailyB]

Well, there's the universe. Perhaps most of us, or at least those who have spent time away from the city lights, are moved by looking at the night sky and pondering the meaning of what we're seeing. Nothing like a god, though.
That isn't nothing like a God. :)

[Zimpo]

No.

[SMS]

No, not at all.

And I have to take issue with your statement that anything within you "verifies a higher power". How do you know? What makes you confident that this is anything other than an emotion with no reality outside your neurons?

How do you know the external world exists and it is not just the Cartesian malicious demon manipulating your thoughts?

[tjakey]

This may or may not apply -

I don't believe in an after life. Therefore, it stands to reason that my existence on earth is what I have to make count. I'm not earning brownie points with any gods for doing the right thing; I'm not feathering any heavenly beds. If I want to life to be satisfying and meaningful, it's up to me to make it that way.

I resemble that remark.:D

As do I. If you only get one ride you should make it a good one.

[GenesisNemesis]

We can all criticize the arguments for God's existence, and I find some criticisms to be quite profound. However, at the end of the day, there is something within me that verifies a higher power. It may not be the Abrahamic conception of God, but it is something within me that perceives and acknowledges this "God".

Does anyone feel the same way?

The only thing that "pulls" me is the potential of human beings to create.

[muon]

No, not at all.

And I have to take issue with your statement that anything within you "verifies a higher power". How do you know? What makes you confident that this is anything other than an emotion with no reality outside your neurons?

How do you know the external world exists and it is not just the Cartesian malicious demon manipulating your thoughts?

It's not comparable. I observe regularities between my perceptions and what appears to be a rule-abiding external world, and infer that this world exists. Of course I cannot rule out being mistaken, but if it's a delusion it's incredibly self-consistent in the sense that I can apply the scientific method and get meaningful self-consistent results.

On the other hand, I also observe that feelings of the sort you describe have no obvious correlation with reality. People who report these feelings report contradictory things about them, and emotional states in general do not show a regular correspondence with any model of external reality. Nor is there any way to test that these feelings are even consistent with whatever else we believe about the world. So while I cannot prove that my regular perceptions aren't due to a Cartesian demon, I can conclude that the idea that your feeling that there is something larger than you is more consistent with wishful thinking than as an indicator of the nature of reality.

[SMS]

It's not comparable. I observe regularities between my perceptions and what appears to be a rule-abiding external world, and infer that this world exists.

Assuming this is not epistemically circular, I don't see why regularities have much relevance at all. Moreover, the malicious demon does not just control your perception but your thoughts, too. I find your point to be moot.


On the other hand, I also observe that feelings of the sort you describe have no obvious correlation with reality.

'reality'? How do you know what this reality is without begging the question?


So while I cannot prove that my regular perceptions aren't due to a Cartesian demon, I can conclude that the idea that your feeling that there is something larger than you is more consistent with wishful thinking than as an indicator of the nature of reality.


I don't think you have. You left a huge explanatory gap about why I should accept that the coherency of your perceptions are relevant and decisive.

[trendkill]

How do you know the external world exists and it is not just the Cartesian malicious demon manipulating your thoughts?
I would like to answer this question for myself: by applying a principle similar to Swinburne's principle of credulity. The fact that I perceive the world as external tips the balance of the evidence in favor of an external world. In order to disbelieve in such a world, then, I would need evidence against its existence. Currently I don't seem to have any.

[DailyB]

How do you know the external world exists and it is not just the Cartesian malicious demon manipulating your thoughts?
I would like to answer this question for myself: by applying a principle similar to Swinburne's principle of credulity. The fact that I perceive the world as external tips the balance of the evidence in favor of an external world. In order to disbelieve in such a world, then, I would need evidence against its existence. Currently I don't seem to have any.
Why would Descartes' demon make the illusion but not make it seem "external" to you? Or why would it allow you to discover contrary evidence?

Moreover, the fact that you simply perceive something a certain way does not prove a thing, nor tip the balance in favor of your rightness. I very clearly perceive God as a truth internal to myself, yet I'm certain that most of the population would be happy to dismiss that perception as delusional. Why not yours?

[borealis]

Imaginary philosophical existentialist demons aside, no, I don't have any inkling that there is a 'higher power'. I perceive no such thing, and never have, despite years of trying and 'having faith'. I have often thought that what people are talking about when they refer to 'perceiving God' or 'hearing God' is the normal workings of their own brains, echos and inner-speak, thoughts at the back of the mind suddenly louder by reason of silence or meditation or straining to perceive something that isn't any more than themselves.

[Memoria]

I read the title of this thread as:

Atheletes, do you feel pulled to something higher?

http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/tongue/tongue0006.gif

[[serious]]

We can all criticize the arguments for God's existence, and I find some criticisms to be quite profound. However, at the end of the day, there is something within me that verifies a higher power. It may not be the Abrahamic conception of God, but it is something within me that perceives and acknowledges this "God".

Does anyone feel the same way?

I went atheist for a while and continued to feel such a draw. Whether God exists or not, there does seem to be a draw towards such beliefs. Of course, there is also a trend towards superstitions. It's probably a side effect of our pattern recognition software.

[BioBeing]

We can all criticize the arguments for God's existence, and I find some criticisms to be quite profound. However, at the end of the day, there is something within me that verifies a higher power. It may not be the Abrahamic conception of God, but it is something within me that perceives and acknowledges this "God".

Meh - I thought you were a Christian... Why else would you write God with a capital G?

Does anyone feel the same way?
No. Not at all.

[His Noodly Appendage]

Well, I've swum at high tide...

[Lugubert]

To the OP: Physically and mentally, I feel safe on the ground. No pulls.
No, not at all.

And I have to take issue with your statement that anything within you "verifies a higher power". How do you know? What makes you confident that this is anything other than an emotion with no reality outside your neurons?

How do you know the external world exists and it is not just the Cartesian malicious demon manipulating your thoughts?

To the part I bolded: Why should I even care? My perceptions work for me.

[SMS]

We can all criticize the arguments for God's existence, and I find some criticisms to be quite profound. However, at the end of the day, there is something within me that verifies a higher power. It may not be the Abrahamic conception of God, but it is something within me that perceives and acknowledges this "God".

Meh - I thought you were a Christian... Why else would you write God with a capital G?

Does anyone feel the same way?
No. Not at all.

habit?

[Ray Moscow]

I feel "pulled" to high standards of human achievement and behaviour.

[SophistiCat]

Atheists: do you feel pulled to something higher?

Well, I get the urge to climb something higher, which I then do in my spare time. But I have to strain my muscles against the force of gravity - alas, nothing actually pulls me there :D

[SophistiCat]

ETA: If you are an ant and you feel pulled to something higher, you should be worried.

Carl Zimmer (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2003/10/02/divine-worms/): Some flukes [tiny parasites] live first in snails, which cough them up in slime balls, then in the ants that eat the slime balls. Then the flukes drive the ants up a blade of grass, so that they can be eaten by sheep and cows, their final host.

Listen (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/ra/274.ram) about this on This American Life.

[Autodidact]

I find reality amazing enough to fill me with awe, and the prospect of only having one life enough to inspire me to live it as best I can.

[dug_down_deep]

To the OP, I feel like putting my neck on the chopping block, I guess...

Yes, I do feel like there is another level of intelligence, either inside of this body or in some sense beyond it, and I have always seen life as a story. I don't know what that gains me, though. If it is god, then it has a lot of explaining to do. If it is some other part of me, then it seems likely this body is capable of knowing things and not knowing them at the same time.

So, whatever.

[trendkill]

How do you know the external world exists and it is not just the Cartesian malicious demon manipulating your thoughts?
I would like to answer this question for myself: by applying a principle similar to Swinburne's principle of credulity. The fact that I perceive the world as external tips the balance of the evidence in favor of an external world. In order to disbelieve in such a world, then, I would need evidence against its existence. Currently I don't seem to have any.
Why would Descartes' demon make the illusion but not make it seem "external" to you? Or why would it allow you to discover contrary evidence?Doesn't matter. You'd still have to provide some evidence of its existence to counter the weight of the evidence in favor of the external world. I have one bit of evidence for believing in the external world, and zero bits against. Balance tipped.

Moreover, the fact that you simply perceive something a certain way does not prove a thing, nor tip the balance in favor of your rightness.Actually, it does.

I very clearly perceive God as a truth internal to myself, yet I'm certain that most of the population would be happy to dismiss that perception as delusional. Why not yours?There's significant publically-available evidence against the existence of gods, easily enough to counter any subjective perception that they exist.

[Preno]

We can all criticize the arguments for God's existence, and I find some criticisms to be quite profound. However, at the end of the day, there is something within me that verifies a higher power. It may not be the Abrahamic conception of God, but it is something within me that perceives and acknowledges this "God".I am "surprised" at this revelation.

[Eudaimonist]

I feel pulled to something higher... about myself. My potentials and my ideals are that something higher.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[Garnet]

We can all criticize the arguments for God's existence, and I find some criticisms to be quite profound. However, at the end of the day, there is something within me that verifies a higher power. It may not be the Abrahamic conception of God, but it is something within me that perceives and acknowledges this "God".

Does anyone feel the same way?

Nope. Not once. Not even during years and years of seeking.

ETA: Oh crap. I just realized this is in the Philosophy forum. I normally don't post in here. Discussions about whether or not I really exist tend to cause me to count ceiling tiles. I'll be bailing out now.

[Nihlus]

We can all criticize the arguments for God's existence, and I find some criticisms to be quite profound. However, at the end of the day, there is something within me that verifies a higher power. It may not be the Abrahamic conception of God, but it is something within me that perceives and acknowledges this "God".

Does anyone feel the same way?

For me, yes, that is why I'm Wiccan. But I don't believe in the Christian god, I merely acknowledge the presence of a divine spirit

[ronin]

We can all criticize the arguments for God's existence, and I find some criticisms to be quite profound. However, at the end of the day, there is something within me that verifies a higher power. It may not be the Abrahamic conception of God, but it is something within me that perceives and acknowledges this "God".

Does anyone feel the same way?

What is it within you that verifies a higher power?

How can something unverified subsequently verify something unverified?

Which God do you acknowledge?

As for me, I don't feel the same way.

At relative times life experience is good, bad and ambiguous depending upon subjective view.

I'm interested in this religious ("spiritual") perception that "higher" is the equivalent to "good" or divine while "lower" must be "bad" or demonic.

Can human beings be equal to this special divinity given such a vague feeling of verification?

Why/why not?

[emphryio]

We can all criticize the arguments for God's existence, and I find some criticisms to be quite profound. However, at the end of the day, there is something within me that verifies a higher power. It may not be the Abrahamic conception of God, but it is something within me that perceives and acknowledges this "God".

Does anyone feel the same way?
Well for one example:
I'm curious what is going on in people when they cry.

Personally I think I have to be believing in some godlike entity in order to cry. I really wonder if it's actually the same for other "atheists". It's not a provable thing though. And it took me a couple decades of life to realize this about crying. And after realizing it I almost completely lost the ability to cry because whenever the possibility came up I'd reflect on how ridiculous it was.

But then perhaps a person could just be crying to another person. But if you're all alone and crying... I don't see how that's possible.

Perhaps crying is basically an intense form of praying. (I say that as someone who has always thought of praying as being very ridiculous.)

And I understand that most people have not a frickin clue what is really going on in their heads when they cry.

[Vorpal]

The only thing that "pulls" on me is the fact that in some areas I have
lived in like Jackson, MS the church is the end-all and be-all of
socializing. They have groups of every single type and services of
every single type. In those areas there is no secular equivalent to
that other than bars where alot of spoiled druggie rednecks go
to add more DUIs to the collection. Alot of areas in the South truly
lack that.

Fortunately, I am back in New Orleans now. Yeah, one would think
NOLA would be worse with all the bars, but there is a vibrant coffee
scene that has been coming back. Also, only old folks and TD Jakes
fans in New Orleans East are big bigot church freaks.

[ronin]

The only thing that "pulls" on me is the fact that in some areas I have
lived in like Jackson, MS the church is the end-all and be-all of
socializing. They have groups of every single type and services of
every single type. In those areas there is no secular equivalent to
that other than bars where alot of spoiled druggie rednecks go
to add more DUIs to the collection. Alot of areas in the South truly
lack that.

Fortunately, I am back in New Orleans now. Yeah, one would think
NOLA would be worse with all the bars, but there is a vibrant coffee
scene that has been coming back. Also, only old folks and TD Jakes
fans in New Orleans East are big bigot church freaks.

Well, I think of parks, museums and libraries as "secular equivalents" to the Jackson Church scene. My friend John, a dj at Z106.7 in Jackson is my secular contact when I get up that way and there are now three different atheist/humanist meetup groups from here in Biloxi to the top of the state.

I do agree that the socializing factor of church is a strong pull for many folks and that they truly don't understand non-belief/non-believers on a visceral level.

Still, you're right, fortunately you are now in NOLA...you have SwampFest, JazzFest, every other Fest, The Riverwalk, The French Quarter and Audubon Zoo, etc. So, you're sitting pretty now.

[emphryio]

Something somewhat related to what I said before about crying is 'the imaginary eyes'. Milan Kundera said somewhere that we all have eyes that we imagine are watching us. He said that there were 4 kinds of eyes. ...(what were they?...) A loved one, family/circle of friends, the entire world (for famous people/people who like to pretend they're famous, and truly imaginary people.

Now, I don't know if it's actually true at all that everyone always has such imaginary eyes upon them. I know that at various times I have had such eyes... And at other times... maybe I didn't..? I'm not sure.

I've had at least one stage where I imagined a penpal/email friend as watching me. (not literally like a peeping tom of course, just aware of what was going on with me, etc). Probably a lover or someone I wished was a lover.

Kundera said that having truly imaginary people as the eyes watching you was the most rarest but I think surely that imaginary person could include a sort of "god". In which case it would surely not be the rarest sort of imaginary eyes.

It has nothing much really to do with logical thinking. There's nothing to prove. It's creativity and/or finding a way to tolerate this ugly world.

[emphryio]

Nah I suppose that's a very different thing as with Kundera it's understood that it's not real, a sort of pretending. With crying/belief in god, it's thought of as being basically real.

[Izmir Stinger]

Personally I think I have to be believing in some godlike entity in order to cry. I really wonder if it's actually the same for other "atheists". It's not a provable thing though. And it took me a couple decades of life to realize this about crying. And after realizing it I almost completely lost the ability to cry because whenever the possibility came up I'd reflect on how ridiculous it was.

Wanna bet? If you would like to do a little experiment regarding whether god belief is necessary to cry, I volunteer to kick you in the testicles. If you are female, I'm sure a suitable alternative experiment can be designed.

There won't be any thoughts of a higher power, no existential musings on the pointlessness of the activity, no reflexive psudeo-prayer. You will experience shocking amounts of pain, and your tear ducts will produce excess tears. Crying is a reaction to pain. In the case of psychological pain it appears to vary quite a bit from person to person, to include those that hardly ever cry over psychological injury. Physical pain, OTOH, that is above a certain threshold and below the amount that will render you unconscious will cause crying, period.

[Vorpal]

The only thing that "pulls" on me is the fact that in some areas I have
lived in like Jackson, MS the church is the end-all and be-all of
socializing. They have groups of every single type and services of
every single type. In those areas there is no secular equivalent to
that other than bars where alot of spoiled druggie rednecks go
to add more DUIs to the collection. Alot of areas in the South truly
lack that.

Fortunately, I am back in New Orleans now. Yeah, one would think
NOLA would be worse with all the bars, but there is a vibrant coffee
scene that has been coming back. Also, only old folks and TD Jakes
fans in New Orleans East are big bigot church freaks.

Well, I think of parks, museums and libraries as "secular equivalents" to the Jackson Church scene. My friend John, a dj at Z106.7 in Jackson is my secular contact when I get up that way and there are now three different atheist/humanist meetup groups from here in Biloxi to the top of the state.

I do agree that the socializing factor of church is a strong pull for many folks and that they truly don't understand non-belief/non-believers on a visceral level.

Still, you're right, fortunately you are now in NOLA...you have SwampFest, JazzFest, every other Fest, The Riverwalk, The French Quarter and Audubon Zoo, etc. So, you're sitting pretty now.

True, I did FINALLY find that meetup group in Jackson, MS right before
I moved back to NOLA. It seems very active, and the mailing list that
bombards my e-mail box has alot of good discussion. Didn't get to
go to thier meetup before moving. Sad, too.. I worked around alot
of zealot religous nuts ever since landing there in Katrina. It wouldve
been cool to hang with those of like minds during my time in Jackson.
Maybe my time in Jackson wouldve been much more tolerable than
the dull, grey work-sleep-work-sleep world it was.

[Eudaimonist]

I don't feel pulled to something above and outside of myself, but rather to grow in stature.

I believe those callings to something "greater" than oneself are really a calling to be greater oneself.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[ronin]

The only thing that "pulls" on me is the fact that in some areas I have
lived in like Jackson, MS the church is the end-all and be-all of
socializing. They have groups of every single type and services of
every single type. In those areas there is no secular equivalent to
that other than bars where alot of spoiled druggie rednecks go
to add more DUIs to the collection. Alot of areas in the South truly
lack that.

Fortunately, I am back in New Orleans now. Yeah, one would think
NOLA would be worse with all the bars, but there is a vibrant coffee
scene that has been coming back. Also, only old folks and TD Jakes
fans in New Orleans East are big bigot church freaks.

Well, I think of parks, museums and libraries as "secular equivalents" to the Jackson Church scene. My friend John, a dj at Z106.7 in Jackson is my secular contact when I get up that way and there are now three different atheist/humanist meetup groups from here in Biloxi to the top of the state.

I do agree that the socializing factor of church is a strong pull for many folks and that they truly don't understand non-belief/non-believers on a visceral level.

Still, you're right, fortunately you are now in NOLA...you have SwampFest, JazzFest, every other Fest, The Riverwalk, The French Quarter and Audubon Zoo, etc. So, you're sitting pretty now.

True, I did FINALLY find that meetup group in Jackson, MS right before
I moved back to NOLA. It seems very active, and the mailing list that
bombards my e-mail box has alot of good discussion. Didn't get to
go to thier meetup before moving. Sad, too.. I worked around alot
of zealot religous nuts ever since landing there in Katrina. It wouldve
been cool to hang with those of like minds during my time in Jackson.
Maybe my time in Jackson wouldve been much more tolerable than
the dull, grey work-sleep-work-sleep world it was.

Well, if you're available...our own Meetup group is preparing and delivering meals to those in need 9:00 am Nov. 27 at Bayou View Elementary School in Gulfport. We go to NOLA all the time, it's about an hour drive.

Send me a PM if you want more details!

Have you checked out NOSHA (http://nosha.secularhumanism.net/) yet?

[ronin]

Personally I think I have to be believing in some godlike entity in order to cry. I really wonder if it's actually the same for other "atheists". It's not a provable thing though. And it took me a couple decades of life to realize this about crying. And after realizing it I almost completely lost the ability to cry because whenever the possibility came up I'd reflect on how ridiculous it was.

Wanna bet? If you would like to do a little experiment regarding whether god belief is necessary to cry, I volunteer to kick you in the testicles. If you are female, I'm sure a suitable alternative experiment can be designed.

There won't be any thoughts of a higher power, no existential musings on the pointlessness of the activity, no reflexive psudeo-prayer. You will experience shocking amounts of pain, and your tear ducts will produce excess tears. Crying is a reaction to pain. In the case of psychological pain it appears to vary quite a bit from person to person, to include those that hardly ever cry over psychological injury. Physical pain, OTOH, that is above a certain threshold and below the amount that will render you unconscious will cause crying, period.

I'll add that one doesn't need God-belief to feel the depths of despair that not only brings tears...but a near unbearable feeling of emotional loss that resonates for years and years.

Likewise our experiences at times with great heights of joy and hope.

We are all human, no God(s)ess(es) required.

Times Like These (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPy4EqQcUAw)

[Lord Emsworth]

A higher what exactly? And in what respect? Higher than what?

[SMS]

What is it within you that verifies a higher power? I'm not sure. However, it seems indistinguishable from intuition.

How can something unverified subsequently verify something unverified?

what do you mean by verify?

Which God do you acknowledge?

I'm moving towards the god of the philosophers. however, at the moment, I'd like to call myself a pantheist.


Can human beings be equal to this special divinity given such a vague feeling of verification?

Why/why not?

Equal in what respects?

[Boro Nut]

What is it within you that verifies a higher power? I'm not sure. However, it seems indistinguishable from intuition.But how do you know that's not just a gut feeling?

what do you mean by verify?Not quite as fy as totallyfy obviously.

I'm moving towards the god of the philosophers.What? On foot?

however, at the moment, I'd like to call myself a pantheist.Big deal. Who doesn't love panthers?

Why/why not?Because/not telling.

Equal in what respects?Too easy. what=respects

I don't know why I waste my time on engineering. This philosophy bollocks is a doddle.

That's probably why they put a sudoku in the newspapers and not a problem of evil or something.

Boro Nut

[Spenser]

@ the OP

No