Ethno-Nationalism and my beliefs

[DC-3]

Hello, I'm a British Heritage Ethno-Nationalist for my nation of Canada. Before I begin with explaining my beliefs and asking for thoughts let me clarify that I am in no way a racist, neo-nazi, skinhead or anything like that. Trust me, if there is one group of people I truly loathe, it's those that attack an individual for something out of their control.

The reason I'm posting this here is because I have a hunch that this place is rational (if you read my intro this is my first cringe-worthy attempt at humor, sorry). Now anytime I try to discuss my thoughts on the internet I find myself puzzled because there is no where one can go to get a decent opinion. If I go to a mainstream board, either people do not understand or are not interested and on free speech boards I can't find anyone that isn't an antisemitic lunatic stuck in 1939 Germany or a dimwit skinhead.

SO basically I'm hoping that the people here can give me their thoughts.

Ok, so I'm strictly focusing on Canada here.

Ethno-nationalist is just a term of convenience - I don't think all nation-states should be divided on ethnic lines, although I would say it's usually desirable and can prevent a lot of problems. But there's nothing inherently wrong with multi-ethnic federations, and the idea of nations within nations, as we have in Canada, is an attractive one.

Multiculturalism is a mess insofar as it has deviated from its original purpose - to encourage the preservation of separate cultures in a shared geographic space - and now aims at some kind of ambiguous integration. This is the result of the Americanisation of our discourse on immigration, and the unstated assumption that immigrants must assimilate in order for society to function properly. I don't believe that's true, and even if it were, I would prefer the non-functioning society in which we (both the host society and the immigrants) at least retain our heritage, rather than a fully functional one where we all homogenise and adopt the normative progressivist mores of soulless North American civilisation.

I do not support immigration as a policy with an end in itself (i.e 'diversity is strength' and so on), but the movement of professionals between countries is a fact of life, and commercially successful states have always hosted some degree of cosmopolitanism throughout history. I accept that, but unskilled immigration, refugee settlement, family reunification et al. is unjustifiable. Movement between countries for commercial reasons before the 20th century usually did not entail permanent settlement, and that is how I think we should look at immigration going forward. The reasons for this are both cultural and environmental. Mass migration is objectively bad for both the society on the receiving side and the society on the supply side. Mass migration is also objectively bad for the environment - particularly on the receiving side, where settlement tends to be in dense urban centres, and for the planet as a whole, insofar as the most common migration scenario is one in which the migrant's carbon footprint has been multiplied about 150 times in his new country. 50,000 is probably the maximum amount of immigration that would be tolerable; I'd probably favour something much lower.

I don't think non-British immigrants should have been encouraged to settle in Canada. The reasons for this were short-term economic ones, and it would have been better for the long-term situation to grow by natural increase and British immigration, and to train our own farmers instead of relying on Germans and Ukrainians.

There isn't really such a thing as a Canadian nationalist in 2008. We have leftists who are economic nationalists, Quebec nationalists, and 2 or 3 Newfoundlander nationalists. Then there are the Canadian WN and neo-Nazis of Internet fame who, in my rather extensive experience, know next to nothing about their own history and spend all their time reading American writers and forums. True Canadian nationalism died in the 1960s with the severing of our British connection in a fit of inferiority-complex-resolving catharsis, manifested in things like replacing our flag with the Liberal Party logo now in use, eliminating British history in schools, and bilingualism. This has left us completely marooned as a people, separated from our history, yet unaware as to what distinguishes us in essence from the United States. I know maybe a dozen people IRL who share my views and most of them are over 70.

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Any response is appreciated. Thanks.

[Ray Moscow]

My first reaction to your views is that trying to define a society or nation by "ethnicity" is very likely to result in the racism or prejudice that you say you disavow, and maybe wholesale violence as well (as was recently seen in Yugoslavia).

[dancer_rnb]

I don't see what is so great about "British immigrants". You were second, after all.

[Sarpedon]

Third?

[Rathpig]

Race, ethnicity, and nationalism are horrible anachronisms. Even with the most benevolent intent, these views will be taken over by those seeking tribalist political power. The problem lies in the reality of fluid culture. To use the OP example "British" is a nineteenth century construct created to solidify the imperialistic goals of a divided and artificial "nation". What is "British"? It can only be define through politics and meaningless cultural markers. It isn't an organic entity.

Grasping a fleeting culture, and let's be honest that this is the only reason one turns to ethnic nationalism, is simply too late. Human evolution doesn't work in this manner. You can't go back. And even if you could grasp and hold a certain culture, at what point is this valid. Would Iron Age Anglo-Saxony be "British" culture? Anthropologically it is a continental European influx. Celtic culture reaches into the prehistory of "Britain", but this isn't the definition one uses when they cite British ethnicity. In fact the Celtic reality of British history is decidedly not "British" in actual practice. Not that this means anything because it is an unrecoverable culture in anything but a play-acting charade.

Now all this does become rather complicated when applied to Canada. Canada is a conquered territory with a displaced aboriginal population. It seems unlikely that any claim for ethnic nationalism isn't wholly specious when examined in context of the historical reality.

Ironically, evidence for supporting an aboriginal culture to the exclusion of the influx of competing social constructs is just as complex. Anthropologists and sociologists tend to wish that unique cultures could be preserved for academic purposes, but once the contact is made both cultures, ethnicities, and even the core race will be altered forever.

You can't go back.





You shouldn't want to go back. This applies to any cultural idea from the fake "Kwanzaa" construct, to violent "white" nationalism, to the silly right-wing flag-waving "patriotism" of the United States. Nations, ethnicities, races, and the entire gamut of old-meme cultural constructs is meaningless. These situations should be noted by historians, and even preserved to some extent, but as far as a living active social culture, once contact is made, a hybridization occurs that can not be undone.

[Worldtraveller]

How convenient that you only support immigration for your particular race/national background. It sounds like a racist position to me.

Usually the first sign of one on the internet is "I'm not a racist, but..."

I will, however, give you rope, or room, to try and clarify exactly what about your position is not racist.

Speaking as one who has Native American ancestors not that far back, I may have a slightly different opinion than yours about who should or shouldn't be allowed to immigrate to N. America.

Cheers.

[Autodidact]

Pardon me, but isn't everyone of British heritage in Canada descended from an immigrant? Why should these immigrants be treated differently than other immigrants? (Just trying to be rational here.)

[Rathpig]

I'm not saying this is a drive-by, yet. But it sure looks like one.

[Sarpedon]

Its amazing how members of the Master Race can rarely do anything special to demonstrate it.

[dancer_rnb]

Since when are British the Master Race?

[SteveF]

Since when are British the Master Race?

Since a guy got two bits of bread, some stuff in the middle and decided to name the resulting food-stuff after himself.

[Rathpig]

Since when are British the Master Race?

When everyone knows it's the Japanese.

[shipload]

Third?


Fourth, or fifth, if you count the Basques. The Portuguese and Basque were fishing off the Canadian coast long before those freebooting "explorers" from England and France showed up.

And, of course, there's a reason you folks call your "indigenous peoples" "First Nations." It's the most accurate description.

The Norse came and went, too.

I personally think nation-states are going to last as cohesive units for only a bit longer, after which the big nations will break down into regional governance and wider economic cooperatives groups, and a move away from large nation states....rather like the European Union.

I'm a Cascadian separatist, myself. I don't care what kind of ethnic mix there is and actually tend to encourage cross-ethnic marriages. I think we'd all be much better served by broadening the gene pool. Each and every citizen should be judged by the content of her/his character, rather than the color of his/her skin or the accent with which they speak.

[Esocyn]

Extreme nationalism is bullshit.

[dancer_rnb]

Extreme nationalism is bullshit.

Correct. And is being replaced by International Corporatism.

[Plognark]

Translation of OP: Don't let any more darkies into Canada.

[Wordy]

Isn't this topic intensely (in)flammable. Political Correctness demand of us to vehemently deny there is anything to DC-3 OP reasoning.

I'm a Swede since 1650 or so on my Dad's lineage. Does that make me an ethnic Swede?

What if it is true like my Father suggested that us looking a bit more exotic than the usual light skinned and blue eyed and blond nordic types here we very well could be hired soldiers from Volga North of Turkey down in 1530 wars or something. Swedish Kings loved to buy a lot of soldiers to fight their wars and we could be Turkish Horse warriors?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJC0DQQaIQM

I love Turkish music so I even think we are Turks :) So how much of a Swede am I? Maybe me should turn Islam faith to be political correct?

Ok I over do it.

But the topic is very interesting if it didn't got so much emotions involved.

I think it is impossible to have a rational talk about it. It is totally out of the question to talk rationally about how it feels. Feelings are not rational ever are they?

Humans don't have that capacity. "True Anti-Racists" (TM) like me has to go into attack and see any mentioning of such as an enemy to bash hard. At least that is how I was brought up by my Communist Dad since 1950 or so. We hated nations. Internationalists full blooded we are here.

Apart from that. When I have contact with my body I feel very strongly that most likely my body prefer to have Swedes around me. So my body wants to have a kind of ethnic cleansing so my Dad turns in his grave if he would know about my feelings.

So I am torn apart. I know it is absolutely taboo to feel this way and my intellect tells me that my feelings are extremely wrong but if I am true to how it feels within me then I have to admit me don't feel good about all the immigrants where I live. I even think the Swedes in Finland should get back here and the Finns here should go back to Finland. It doesn't help they ahve been here since 1550 or so. They are still alien to me. That is my body feelings but I know my body is wrong but that is how it feels.

And listen. Swedes tried to lure Norway into a Union, Since then they almost hate us.

And Denmark and Sweden fought over Norway and the Danes almost won and they are still very upset over that we manged to get Three landscaped regions to be Swedish while they belonged to Denmark so these ethno feelings are very strong but we who are Anti-Racists seldom admit that to others or even to ourselves.

It took me some 50 years to admit my true feelings. I guess most Anti Racists will deny they even have them.

[dancer_rnb]

The Brits are mongrels anyway.

Weren't there at least three migations there?
Celts, Germans, Norse. Norman French

make that four.

[Sarpedon]

Its not that we can't have an intelligent discussion about ethnicity.

Its just that we can't have an intelligent discussion about ethnicity that begins "I'm not a racist, but we shouldn't let non-anglo people move to Canada."

[Wordy]

Would the OP agree to change the topic to not be about Canada and me not about Sweden but all of us talk about identity and feelings and try to be rational.

What is it him and me feel that is so totally taboo to talk rational about. Skip Canada and Sweden.

We are all one family humans and what is it we feel? What is it the racists exploits so easily?

Loyalty to Kin or Us vs Them group boundary feelings?

[David M]

The Brits are mongrels anyway.

Weren't there at least three migations there?
Celts, Germans, Norse. Norman French

make that four.

Make that more that you can easily quantify.

Angles, Saxons, Jutes, various flavours of Vikings - not the same as the Normans whose noblility were Vikings who settled in Normandy previously (I know this as that's how my family lineage originally came to England), French Hugenots, Dutch Protestants, Russian Emigre's. Just to name a few.

Proud to be a mongrel descended from a mix of many "invaders". We're tougher than any purebred :)

[Wordy]

Are some of you evading how it feels to have an ethnic identity?

It could be true that some people don't seems to have it.

But some people do have them.
How many percent that have such feelings I don't know.

Why does Norway and Denmark and Sweden failed to do Nordic cooperation.
Cause too many of us feel for our ethnic and not about the bigger region.

Why doesn't Canada apply to be the 51 State in the US? Would be natural and rational if there was no such feelings of belonging to Cananda despite it being very mixed from many cultures.

Why are these feelings so utterly taboo to talk about? How rational is it to deny the feelings?

[dancer_rnb]

I'm sorry you only have one ethnic identity.:rolleyes:

I've inhereted two and have adopted a couple of others.

You can do what you want, for all I care,
, as long as you don't injure others.

[Wordy]

dancer_rnb , you talking to me? I guess you addressed Dc-3 exclusively?

But I talk now to you too and to the rest of us. Is it possible to have more than one identity? I have failed. Are we so different?

How does it feels to have several ethnic identities? I've tried to think me is related to Turks to guess how it would feel. I even tried to be a Same People member or to be a Roma People but I failed. They are too far away from my identity to really know how it feels.

I've met many Same/Swedish mixed family daughters and most of them have adopted their Same identity and not kept their Swedish. So it is as easy as you say here?

[dancer_rnb]

dancer_rnb , you talking to me? I guess you addressed Dc-3 exclusively?

But I talk now to you too and to the rest of us. Is it possible to have more than one identity? I have failed. Are we so different?

How does it feels to have several ethnic identities? I've tried to think me is related to Turks to guess how it would feel. I even tried to be a Same People member or to be a Roma People but I failed. They are too far away from my identity to really know how it feels.

I've met many Same/Swedish mixed family daughters and most of them have adopted their Same identity and not kept their Swedish. So it is as easy as you say here?

Parents were from two different groups. I was exposed to both..
It is possible to move back and forth between the two. I also hang out with a lot of people from a third group. Other individuals may chose to do otherwise.

[Alethias]

I was born into an American Christian family. I found out later in life that I have sufficient Jewish heritage to call myself Jewish. And now I'm a non-theist that programs computers for a living. I play a lot of World of Warcraft online, and I suffer intense chronic migraines. I'm also a male that loves looking at pictures of hot sexy women, and at the same time I'm married to the best woman that's ever come into my life.

I get chunks of my identity from all of those and lots of other things.

Weird, huh?

I don't think I'd be very good at Ethno-Nationalism.

[Wordy]

Yes such may work. I know a guy whom had two cultures that way.

His mother from England and his Father from Sweden. He have siblings that seems to have chosen an English identity. But I don't know them enough to really know.

He had very mixed feelings about this dual identity. Was he really accepted as an Englishmen among them. But maybe he is an exception. The Same girls me befriended seems to have had much trouble to see themselves as Swedes despite having one parent from the majority.

I've met many who have a Father from Southamerica and a Swedish Mother and they seems to adopt a Latin identity and nothing from the Swedish identity. They talk and behave as Latin people. One Iran guy was adopted and he seems to have managed to see himself as a regular Swede but many Swedes saw him as not one of us.

Many from Asia who got adopted have trouble with identity. Sure they could be exceptions.

Suppose somebody gave me evidence me really being of Turkish origin back in 1500 or earlier. Then I would end up in a mess about identity. I don't think it is possible to be both Turkish and Swedish at same time. Even Greeks have trouble being it. They are born here but they see themselves as Greeks living in Sweden. Maybe their grandchildren could feel ok being Swede?

I could take four to five generations or so.

To feel like a US American though maybe only take one or two generations if you come from europe? But that is my wild guess from relatives in Chicago and Atlanta. Their children seems to feel American and don't have two identities. While their parents wanted to be buried in their home graveyard in Sweden. Not very rational at all.

[Wordy]

Alethias, maybe it is like music, all have different talent for feeling musicious. There are people who feel nothing in relation to music. And others have very precise identities what is their music. Hard Rock and such. Folkmusic at times could be very specific. Others could play any kind of music and feel at home in them.

[Wordy]

Alethias,

I visited the Library at our local Synagog and talked to them about a famous Jewish Philosopher Martin Buber. I tried to be as friendly as possible cause I think it is little chance me have Jewish anchestry but one never know such thing. My Mom's relative look kind of different too so what if they hide their origin to not get sent to Germany?

Anyway. Despite Buber being such famous Jew he was kind of not loved by the Library staff. Hard to interpret what was going on but could be their religious identity. His maybe was from another sect? Some of the Jews I knew a bit in my youth had very mixed feelings about going to Jerusalem and to take part in Jewish culture here locally.

We had to import several Rabbi from America. Much loved but still American and not homegrown.

Is it really as easy as you portray it. Describe your feelings.

I go to bed now most likely. local time 23.39 in case you wonder about me going silent.

[Alethias]

I'm used to people being in different timezones, so it doesn't bother me if people can't respond for awhile.

They probably didn't much like Martin Buber because some Jewish People with very strong Jewish Ethnic Identies see him as a betrayer of Judaism because of some of the things he has written in some of his books.

It's not that much of an issue to me, but each to his own.

[Wordy]

That explains it then. He was seen as a betrayer then. And they thought me agreed with him so they where cautious what I would do with the texts. Me writing nasty essays exposing their dislike over his acts? Hmm I was much more innocent than they treated me as. I thought they would love somebody at all caring about their great philosopher.

ok but how does it feel to be partly Jewish. Had it been me I would go through an identity crisis or what the best word for it would be .Who am I

I would ponder for years.

You and I must be very different in bodily make up? You don't fell torn apart having multiple loyalties?

[Alethias]

You and I must be very different in bodily make up? You don't fell torn apart having multiple loyalties?That's very hard for me to answer.

In one sense I feel like a betrayer. I spent most of my adult life as a fundamentalist Christian. I have betrayed my basic beliefs.

At the same time, ever since I knew there was such a thing as Jewish culture and identity I was fascinated by it and identified with it. I love the hebrew language and it's method of expression. I feel at home in a synagogue hearing a Rabbi read from the Torah Scroll an then expound on Jewish Morality. It just feels right to me. It was amazing to discover that my mom's parents were in fact crypto-jews, jews that hid their Jewishness to escape persecution.

But I see way too many problems in god belief, and Judaism and Jewish culture depends on god belief. How does a person reconcile that? It is very difficult for me.

wordy, I think in many ways we are probably vastly different, but I have seen in many of your posts across multiple websites a search for connection with the people and cultures you see around you, and we share that. I don't want to feel rejected by the christians around me, but I do, and it hurts. I don't want to feel left out of basic elements of Jewish life because I don't believe that the Jewish god even exists, but that is the case.

So honestly, I struggle with my identity.

[Ian Nerr]

I'm not a racist but whites are better than darkies.

[dancer_rnb]

So whites should stay out of the sun.
Actually, seeing how easily my father and sister burn in the
sun, and then their skin peels off, it looks like whites are ill equipped to survive.
Unlike me or my mom, who tan.

[Alethias]

I'm not a racist but whites are better than darkies.depends on what you are talking about. If you mean chicken or turkey, i'd agree, but if you mean toast, i prefer medium brown.

[Wordy]

I'm not a racist but whites are better than darkies.

Was that a RnR style lulz or sarcastic provocation?

Alethias Some young Jews here in Stockholm turned very radical Left politically and others longed for going to Jerusalem and become Israel citizens.

My struggle seems more to have to do with my Dad being a atheistic Communist and the Stigma that political party had 60 years ago so he kept that a secret to us kids and to most people around us locally. Only his "comrads" in the inner circles knew such about him. His most beloved elder brothers daughter didn't knew it. I only got to know it 4 years befor he died and maybe that was accidentedly too. He didn't seem sure he should have told us. It changed our view on him. I guess he knew he was soon to die so he kind of wanted to go clean with his children.

My Mom was emotionally very much in faith in body but not in intellect. She had no defense for her faith what so ever. It only felt like God was near to her.

As a ten year old kid I chosed Dad's intellectual reasoning as more rational than my Mom's feeling of God is near. It took me 30 years before I realized that my body had aped after my Mom's bodily feelings, I felt God to be near too but having Dad's intellectual capacity I knew it was my body fooling me so I accepted that it is only feelings and they are natural. At least ten percent of all humans seems to have them and the rest have them in less amount or don't care about the feelings or give them other names. Love for Nature or something.


To feel like a Swede is not easy. Not everybody is accepted by the others as a Swede, We have something a Dane named "Jantelagen".

A kind of social punishment if one think that one are special and something apart from the others. Which I did feel like. and my body showed so they didn't like me as a kid the other kids. I was too intellectual for their taste. Where I lived Team Sport was the way to get popular and I was more like Mr Rainman without his exceptional memory. Socially clumsy though.

We had almost no immigration when I grew up. I adopted my Dad's "internationalism". Everybody on Earth is one big family.

Later around 1960 or so we got labor immigration. Italy and a few from Greek? Later many from Turkey. I met a turk 1965 that teached me to play Nay a typical flute instrument for Muslim culture. Derwish sect of mystical Islam not accepted by Orthodox Islamists. I started to like music from countries that had muslim influence culturally. I met more immigrants than I met Swedes those years. I lived up to my Fathers dream of One big Family of all Mankind.

But around 1975 or so something did happen in Sweden. We began to get so many immigrants too fast that it strained our emotional capacity to cope with them. In some suburb areas now there are 80% foreigners and all the Swedes move out cause their children have no kids in school to learn Swedish from.

These areas become like some areas in Paris like enclaves for radical Islamists. They recruit young persons to go to camps to learn to be real muslims they say.

I've read Scott Atran a bit and I think it is not the religion as such it is the group mentality. From being individuals they get strong loyalty to their group. They don't act as independent individuals part of the bigger society they become one with the group and it's goal to spread Jihad.

They could act in same way in other ideology like communism.

the very sad thing is that the less radical muslims seem to fail to reach these youngsters so the Radicals have free recruiting of them. Ordinary Swedes have no way of reaching them at all. We are seen as their worst enemy. Supporter of US policy. So our political Left have adopted them cause they see US policy as worst enemy too. So it is a polarized society here.

Identity is not easy. Many of these youngsters have no way to feel at home here. They feel at home in Radical Islam. The future doesn't look bright at all.

[Monad]

>>Politics forum??

[Zebulon]

You and I must be very different in bodily make up? You don't fell torn apart having multiple loyalties?That's very hard for me to answer.

In one sense I feel like a betrayer. I spent most of my adult life as a fundamentalist Christian. I have betrayed my basic beliefs.

At the same time, ever since I knew there was such a thing as Jewish culture and identity I was fascinated by it and identified with it. I love the hebrew language and it's method of expression. I feel at home in a synagogue hearing a Rabbi read from the Torah Scroll an then expound on Jewish Morality. It just feels right to me. It was amazing to discover that my mom's parents were in fact crypto-jews, jews that hid their Jewishness to escape persecution.

But I see way too many problems in god belief, and Judaism and Jewish culture depends on god belief. How does a person reconcile that? It is very difficult for me.

wordy, I think in many ways we are probably vastly different, but I have seen in many of your posts across multiple websites a search for connection with the people and cultures you see around you, and we share that. I don't want to feel rejected by the christians around me, but I do, and it hurts. I don't want to feel left out of basic elements of Jewish life because I don't believe that the Jewish god even exists, but that is the case.

So honestly, I struggle with my identity.

Sounds very much like me. There is a Humanist Judaism (http://www.shj.org/) movement, but unfortunately, there are no communities near where I live. Reconstructionist Judaism doesn't profess a personal god, but uses traditional god language. I've been affiliated with a Reform congregation for several years, but have basically stopped participating because the godtalk even there became too uncomfortable for me.

[Wordy]

>>Politics forum??

You mean move the thread to that forum?

Maybe the original OP want it to but then he have not corrected my derail into how it feels.

I think the whole politics of political correctness is part of the problem and not the solution. I've supported political correctness from about me 12 years old to me some 50 years old. It didn't work at all. It is huge failure.

It is more about feelings and how they get expressed. It is more about individual psychology and peer pressure and group dynamics and social coersion and such.


Politics only make it get into party line spin. Only my subjective feelings I know.

[Wordy]

I looked at them too. Here in Sweden we have none of it. Only the Orthodox Jews.
Humanist Judaism movement and Reconstructionist Judaism
but the he Orthodox Jews are mostly friendly, not many are supporting the extreme ones.

Some are even supporting Palestine views. Dror Feiler a famous Jazz musician seems to be among them.

[dancer_rnb]

>>Politics forum??

You mean move the thread to that forum?

Maybe the original OP want it to but then he have not corrected my derail into how it feels.

I think the whole politics of political correctness is part of the problem and not the solution. I've supported political correctness from about me 12 years old to me some 50 years old. It didn't work at all. It is huge failure.

It is more about feelings and how they get expressed. It is more about individual psychology and peer pressure and group dynamics and social coersion and such.


Politics only make it get into party line spin. Only my subjective feelings I know.

I think political correctness, when not carried too far, has a lot to do with not being an idiot. What actions dubbed politically incorrect are really defendable?