Coercion

[Quizalufagus]

What does it mean to be coerced? Conversely, what does it mean to consent?

[kennethamy]

What does it mean to be coerced? Conversely, what does it mean to consent?

One is coerced to at least to the extent that one is unable to do otherwise than one actually does. I don't know the kind of consent you have in mind.

[Ian Nerr]

My mind makes me do stuff against my will.

[Quizalufagus]

One is coerced to at least to the extent that one is unable to do otherwise than one actually does. I don't know the kind of consent you have in mind.

That's an odd definition. If your normal pattern of behavior involved stealing fruit from trees in front yards and I put a 10 foot electric fence in my front yard, then am I coercing you? If I understand your definition correctly, then the answer seems to be yes.

[kennethamy]

One is coerced to at least to the extent that one is unable to do otherwise than one actually does. I don't know the kind of consent you have in mind.

That's an odd definition. If your normal pattern of behavior involved stealing fruit from trees in front yards and I put a 10 foot electric fence in my front yard, then am I coercing you? If I understand your definition correctly, then the answer seems to be yes.

Sure you are. I am doing something, namely not stealing your fruit, and you are restraining me from doing otherwise (stealing your fruit).

Compulsion is both constraint (forcing me to do something I do not want to do) and restraint (forcing me not to do something that I want to do).

[His Noodly Appendage]

I think that that definition fits compulsion, but that coercion generally only refers to constraint.

[kennethamy]

I think that that definition fits compulsion, but that coercion generally only refers to constraint.

I really don't know about that. But "compulsion" is the term I want to use.

[Linus]

What does it mean to be coerced?
To be coerced is to be one of the following:

(i) Be subject to external constraints imposed by others that force you to either do something you don't want to do or to refrain from doing something you want to do.

(ii) Be credibly threatened to have a punishment imposed by others if you either don't do something you don't want to do or refrain from doing something you want to do.

Any problems with this?

[Preno]

What does it mean to be coerced?
To be coerced is to be one of the following:

(i) Be subject to external constraints imposed by others that force you to either do something you don't want to do or to refrain from doing something you want to do.

(ii) Be credibly threatened to have a punishment imposed by others if you either don't do something you don't want to do or refrain from doing something you want to do.

Any problems with this?Yes, you "explained" what coercion is by saying that it's basically forcing someone to do something. That's kinda like explaining what freedom is by saying it's pretty much the same thing as liberty.

[kennethamy]

What does it mean to be coerced?
To be coerced is to be one of the following:

(i) Be subject to external constraints imposed by others that force you to either do something you don't want to do or to refrain from doing something you want to do.

(ii) Be credibly threatened to have a punishment imposed by others if you either don't do something you don't want to do or refrain from doing something you want to do.

Any problems with this?Yes, you "explained" what coercion is by saying that it's basically forcing someone to do something. That's kinda like explaining what freedom is by saying it's pretty much the same thing as liberty.

In any case it certainly does not mean the same thing as "caused" or "determined".

[Linus]

Yes, you "explained" what coercion is by saying that it's basically forcing someone to do something.
It appears I misunderestimated the problem. I thought the problem was to find a definition that captures the indirect ways of coercion (the direct physical ways being easily understood). What exactly is unclear about the meaning of being forced by external constraints to do something? Would it help to eliminate the occurrence of the word 'force' and rewrite it to only use the word 'constrain'?

[Preno]

Well, I am "forced by external constraints" (lack of money, for example) not to go to the South Pole. Would you say that I am being coerced not to go to the South Pole?

[kennethamy]

Well, I am "forced by external constraints" (lack of money, for example) not to go to the South Pole. Would you say that I am being coerced not to go to the South Pole?

Certainly. If you want to go to the South Pole. Of course, you cannot be coerced (or compelled-I am using the words as if they meant the same) not to do something if you don't want to do it; nor, coerced to do something if you want to do it. That is part of what "coerced" ("compelled") means.

That is why it is only a metaphor to say something like that the planets are compelled to orbit the Sun.

[dug_down_deep]

What does it mean to be coerced?
It means that one feels as though one does not have the intention to act in accordance with demand.

Conversely, what does it mean to consent?
It means that one feels as though one has the intention to act in accordance with request.

[kennethamy]

What does it mean to be coerced?
It means that one feels as though one does not have the intention to act in accordance with demand.

Conversely, what does it mean to consent?
It means that one feels as though one has the intention to act in accordance with request.

But one can be coerced and feel that one did not want to do that action but one was forced to, and, it might very well be true! So, being coerced is not just a feeling.
For, instance, suppose I do not want to go somewhere. And supposed that I am drugged into a sleep, and I find I am where I do not want to be. Not only do I feel coerced. I am coerced. Isn't that true?

[dug_down_deep]

But one can be coerced and feel that one did not want to do that action but one was forced to, and, it might very well be true! So, being coerced is not just a feeling.
For, instance, suppose I do not want to go somewhere. And supposed that I am drugged into a sleep, and I find I am where I do not want to be. Not only do I feel coerced. I am coerced. Isn't that true?
But your examples include the feeling of being coerced. I agree coercion is not just a feeling (one could hallucinate, of course), but the feeling of being coerced does seem to be a necessary condition. Without that feeling, how would anyone know they are being coerced?

[kennethamy]

But one can be coerced and feel that one did not want to do that action but one was forced to, and, it might very well be true! So, being coerced is not just a feeling.
For, instance, suppose I do not want to go somewhere. And supposed that I am drugged into a sleep, and I find I am where I do not want to be. Not only do I feel coerced. I am coerced. Isn't that true?
But your examples include the feeling of being coerced. I agree coercion is not just a feeling (one could hallucinate, of course), but the feeling of being coerced does seem to be a necessary condition. Without that feeling, how would anyone know they are being coerced?

Why should it be necessary to know that one is coerced in order to be coerced?

[dug_down_deep]

Why should it be necessary to know that one is coerced in order to be coerced?
Without knowledge of the coercion, it hardly seems like coercion. I can imagine someone nearly in a vegetative state, being controlled by a guardian, for example. Is that coercion?

[Linus]

Well, I am "forced by external constraints" (lack of money, for example) not to go to the South Pole. Would you say that I am being coerced not to go to the South Pole?
I guess that depends on the degree to which your economical situation is imposed by others.

[kennethamy]

Why should it be necessary to know that one is coerced in order to be coerced?
Without knowledge of the coercion, it hardly seems like coercion. I can imagine someone nearly in a vegetative state, being controlled by a guardian, for example. Is that coercion?

Of course it won't seem like coercion if you are unaware of it. That's quite obvious. But that doesn't mean that you are not being coerced. Most of the times when you are being coerced you are aware of it, but it does not follow that being aware of being coerced is a necessary condition of being coerced. After all, most of the times you are injured, you are aware of having been injured, but it doesn't follow that whenever you are injured you must be aware of it. There are familiar cases when someone is injured and is not aware of it.

[DMB]

I think there is a difference between coercion and compulsion. IMO the former requires a human agent. I would say coercion is something like this:

Agent A forces subject S to perform action A under the threat of response R, where S is presented with the choice:

Do A or else R will befall you.

It is usually the case that A is something that S does not want to do and R is something that S perceives as being at least a bit worse than doing A.

Examples: Walk to the edge of this mass grave and kneel down or I will beat you and/or shoot you where you are. In this case S may have a smidgen of hope that s/he will not be killed if s/he obeys.

Abort your unauthorised second pregnancy or you will lose what miserable privileges you have.

I think coercion involves a choice, a bad one, but a choice none the less. I think compulsion can include coercion but can be more general.

[kennethamy]

I think there is a difference between coercion and compulsion. IMO the former requires a human agent. I would say coercion is something like this:

Agent A forces subject S to perform action A under the threat of response R, where S is presented with the choice:

Do A or else R will befall you.

It is usually the case that A is something that S does not want to do and R is something that S perceives as being at least a bit worse than doing A.

Examples: Walk to the edge of this mass grave and kneel down or I will beat you and/or shoot you where you are. In this case S may have a smidgen of hope that s/he will not be killed if s/he obeys.

Abort your unauthorised second pregnancy or you will lose what miserable privileges you have.

I think coercion involves a choice, a bad one, but a choice none the less. I think compulsion can include coercion but can be more general.

You are probably right about coercion involving a person(s) who coerces as contrasted with compulsion which may be impersonal. We talk of a hand-washing compulsion, not a hand-washing coercion, since there is no person involved in such an "internal" compulsion. Whether you are right about "coercion" permitting choice, as contrasted with "compulsion" I don't know. We would need some evidence about when it would be appropriate to use the one word rather than the other word when we talk. Otherwise, it would be only speculation.

[Preno]

Well, I am "forced by external constraints" (lack of money, for example) not to go to the South Pole. Would you say that I am being coerced not to go to the South Pole?
I guess that depends on the degree to which your economical situation is imposed by others.Exactly, so in effect, you have not explained what coercion is anymore than you would explain what freedom is by saying it's liberty. You "reduced" it to what is pretty much a synonym.
Well, I am "forced by external constraints" (lack of money, for example) not to go to the South Pole. Would you say that I am being coerced not to go to the South Pole?Certainly. If you want to go to the South Pole. Of course, you cannot be coerced (or compelled-I am using the words as if they meant the same) not to do something if you don't want to do it; nor, coerced to do something if you want to do it. That is part of what "coerced" ("compelled") means.Well, I wouldn't. I don't think many people would say that I am being coerced into not being able to go to the South Pole, and I'm quite sure such a notion of coercion is quite useless.

[kennethamy]

Certainly. If you want to go to the South Pole. Of course, you cannot be coerced (or compelled-I am using the words as if they meant the same) not to do something if you don't want to do it; nor, coerced to do something if you want to do it. That is part of what "coerced" ("compelled") means.Well, I wouldn't. I don't think many people would say that I am being coerced into not being able to go to the South Pole, and I'm quite sure such a notion of coercion is quite useless.

I don't think the term "coerced" is used a lot anyway. But, it seems to me that a person might easily say that he was forced not to go to the South Pole because of lack of money. Let's not use the example of the South Pole, since that is quite unlikely anyway.
But, how about this conversation?

A. Hello James, where are you going on your vacation?
B. I am going to ski in Germany.
A. Don't you usually go to Switzerland to ski? You dislike Germany, don't you?
B. Yes, but Switzerland is out this year. It is so expensive. So, I am forced to go to Germany for lack of money.

I don't see that this conversation is untoward, and certainly not useless. Do you?

[Linus]

Exactly, so in effect, you have not explained what coercion is anymore than you would explain what freedom is by saying it's liberty. You "reduced" it to what is pretty much a synonym.
Well, firstly, 'coercion' like most everyday words are a bit vague. I think I've defined it at least as precisely as the words you use to complain about my definition. :) For example, it is not entirely clear what you mean by "explain" in this context.

Secondly, why should the lack of clarity regarding the degree to which your economical situation is imposed by others militate against the suggested definition of 'coercion'? That it in a particular case can be unclear whether or not all conditions in a definition are satisfied does not seem like a reason to reject the definition.

[Preno]

I don't think the term "coerced" is used a lot anyway. But, it seems to me that a person might easily say that he was forced not to go to the South Pole because of lack of money. Let's not use the example of the South Pole, since that is quite unlikely anyway.
But, how about this conversation?

A. Hello James, where are you going on your vacation?
B. I am going to ski in Germany.
A. Don't you usually go to Switzerland to ski? You dislike Germany, don't you?
B. Yes, but Switzerland is out this year. It is so expensive. So, I am forced to go to Germany for lack of money.

I don't see that this conversation is untoward, and certainly not useless. Do you?No, I agree. But "I was coerced to" seems more specialized than "I was forced to", to me. If someone tells me they were coerced to go to Germany, I would think that maybe they were kidnapped, while if someone said that they were forced to go to Germany, other interpretations are possible.
Well, firstly, 'coercion' like most everyday words are a bit vague. I think I've defined it at least as precisely as the words you use to complain about my definition. :) For example, it is not entirely clear what you mean by "explain" in this context.Well, the problem with it is not that it is unclear, but that it doesn't help us one iota. You are coerced to do something by someone iff he forces you to do it, just like someone infringes on your freedom iff they impinge on your liberty, but such a definition doesn't explain anything at all.

[Linus]

Well, the problem with it is not that it is unclear, but that it doesn't help us one iota. You are coerced to do something by someone iff he forces you to do it, just like someone infringes on your freedom iff they impinge on your liberty, but such a definition doesn't explain anything at all.
Why should a definition explain anything? And what aspects of being forced by someone to do something is in need of explanation?

[kennethamy]

]No, I agree. But "I was coerced to" seems more specialized than "I was forced to", to me. If someone tells me they were coerced to go to Germany, I would think that maybe they were kidnapped, while if someone said that they were forced to go to Germany, other interpretations are possible.


Yes. I have been concentrating on the larger issue of the difference between causation (or determination) and compulsion. The OP of this thread decided to use the term, "coercion" rather than "compulsion" for some reason. And I agree that there are difference among, "compulsion", "coercion", "being forced" and so on.

[Preno]

Why should a definition explain anything? And what aspects of being forced by someone to do something is in need of explanation?Well, to recycle the example I have used a zillion times, surely you wouldn't think of answering an OP that said "what is freedom" by saying "well, it's pretty much liberty", would you?
Yes. I have been concentrating on the larger issue of the difference between causation (or determination) and compulsion. The OP of this thread decided to use the term, "coercion" rather than "compulsion" for some reason. And I agree that there are difference among, "compulsion", "coercion", "being forced" and so on.I think we agree, then. I didn't intend my points to have any bearing on causation vs. compulsion.

[Linus]

Well, to recycle the example I have used a zillion times, surely you wouldn't think of answering an OP that said "what is freedom" by saying "well, it's pretty much liberty", would you?
I think your example obscures rather than illuminates what you are asking for and what our disagreement (if any) consists in. Are there more direct answers to the question of what aspect of being 'forced by someone' that is in need of explanation?