how to actually get into linux

[Jet Black]

I have ubuntu on this machine. I've actually had it for ages and used it about three times, and in each case have just used firefox like I am now, however I put it here with the intention of becoming at least reasonably proficient in the use of linux - and not just the graphical OS. Can anyone recommend any good sites and guides for doing so.

thanks

[Worldtraveller]

Slashdot?

I'll ask my wife when I get home, she's 'old school' Linux, but she's running Unbutu on her new laptop.

[Obi-too]

I tried it for a while but I have so many Windows only work programs that it didn't work. I could see using it for home use. Has Windows emulation gotten better? I thought about setting up a Virtual PC environment to compensate.

[seebs]

Slashdot recently reviewed a book which has actually been out for a while; Mark Sobell's Practical Guide to Ubuntu Linux.

I was involved in the production of the OS X version of the same series, and I like them a fair bit. If you want to get a good intro to UNIX, that's one of the ones I'd recommend.

[His Noodly Appendage]

JB: the best approach I've found for things like this is to find something you actually want to achieve. Small automation is awesome for this kind of thing. What are you into? Organising media, aggregating information from the web or elsewhere, backing up all your data over the network on a regular basis... pick any reasonably complex task that has some actual application in your life, then get googling, and set about to implement it.

There will be all kinds of niggles and stumbling blocks and inelegances and frustrations along the way - and it is by overcoming these that you will learn. There's a whole lot of top-down structure for all the required knowledge to fit into, but there's only a certain amount of theory that will fit into your head at once without concrete application thereof. I'd recommend you turn to theory when you have a backlog of facts that just don't make sense - then you read up on wtf is going on, and they all click into place, nailing the theory down at the same time.

That's my learning style, at least - ymmv.

[seebs]

HNA has good points. I'd recommend my book on shell scripting, but it's not done yet. :)

[His Noodly Appendage]

Also, disregard anyone who suggests using bash (the linux equivalent of .BAT files) for anything bigger than ten lines. :p

It's like eating spaghetti with a corkscrew: you CAN do it, sure - but it's awkward, painful, and involves forcibly coercing a tool into a job it's really not suited for.

(yes, if [[ "x$i" eq "x" ]], I'm looking at you)

For anything that requires more than one nested control structure, use ruby. You'll thank me later.

[seebs]

I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree. There's a lot of things shell is very good at -- although ruby's quite elegant too.

There is a place for shell scripting, but it's worth learning enough about it to avoid all the cargo cult tricks. :)

[lpetrich]

I've tried to learn Unix shell scripting, but it's rather cranky and irregular. Any favorite tutorials?

My favorite alternative to that for bigger jobs is the programming language Python. Some people like Ruby and others like Perl for such things, but Python is what I like. I find it to be elegant, object-oriented, and with a big library of extensions like Biggles, the plotting package.


And you can also get a Unix shell for Windows: Cygwin.

I have gotten a lot of Unix experience over the years, starting with a VAX BSD Unix, continuing with SunOS, Cygwin, and now MacOS X.

And this gets me thinking about starting a poll on programming languages here. Or Linux distributions. Or OSes in general.

[seebs]

I don't know of any good tutorials for shell scripting that are still in print, although The UNIX Programming Environment is still surprisingly relevant.

Sometime late this year, there should be a book by me on "portable shell scripting" out from Apress, assuming review and editing goes well.

[Jet Black]

well my big challenge at thsi stage is installing the wacom drivers for my graphics tablet:

http://linuxwacom.sourceforge.net/

seems complicated, far more complicated than anything I have ever done with windows....

I anticipate a couple of weeks work there.

[His Noodly Appendage]

What distribution are you using?

[Ray Moscow]

I anticipate a couple of weeks work there.

One Xmas my wife bought me a Linux distribution with a intro book (she saw that I had my eye on it).

I mentioned this to an IT friend, and his comment was: "Does she know she's asking for a divorce? You'll never have time for her if you get into Linux."

I think he was only half kidding, but I've not yet really tried to get far into Linux, either.

[Jet Black]

so after following the instructions on the tin, which told me to use su, I found it didn't work. so after much faring around I found out about sudo which got su to work, I then installed the tablet drivers.... no.... to install the drivers I need to install tcl, but the installation instructions for tcl are crap.....

I'm using ubuntu, edgy eft, which is supposed to be easy.

this isn't easy is it?

[Jet Black]

where should I install stuff like tcl?

[Obi-too]

I had similar problems getting my wireless to work when I tried to switch. Even when I finally go it working it was intermittent and I had to reset the connection several times.

I read everything I could and I found out I;

1) Could rewrite the driver myself and contribute
2) RTFM nOOb
3) Buy better hardware that isn't made only for Micro$oft.
4) Could just use my Windows partition

It's obvious to me you are using the wrong hardware or haven't bothered searching for the answer yourself. Remember its "free" as in use all your free time to get the basic functionality working.

[Jet Black]

well this is the best hardware I can get actually.. though I only want to use it for the mouse on Linux (it seems perverse to have two mice installed at the same time) and I am searching for it. hence the OP. I agree with the free comment though :P and this is interesting ,at the moment. until tomorrow morning probably.

[Obi-too]

Just giving you a hard time.

I gave up on my last Linux install because it just didn't work well with my Laptop and I didn't have the time to search for the needle in a haystack fixes for it.

[His Noodly Appendage]

You should be able to install tcl with apt-get - try "apt-get tcl"

Or use the Software Manager from the GNOME menu (or run 'synaptic')

...um, did you type 'wacom ubuntu' into google?

It sent me to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Wacom - which looks useful.

[seebs]

In Ubuntu, I'd probably do

$ sudo apt-get install tcl

to install Tcl.

(Note: I actually use kubuntu, not ubuntu.)

[dug_down_deep]

I have Ubuntu in a dual boot with XP, and I forgot my Ubuntu password. I would just uninstall it, but it's got ahold of my boot process. Anyone know a way of getting out of this problem?

[seebs]

Go in with a live CD and do magic. There is suitable magic, although I don't remember it off the top of my head.

[His Noodly Appendage]

Boot with a live CD, create a user, set a password for it, then copy the crypted password out of /etc/shadow into /etc/shadow on your linux volume on the HD.

[Jet Black]

oops, completely borked ubuntu now, and am faced with the black screen of indifference.

reinstall :D

[Jet Black]

...um, did you type 'wacom ubuntu' into google?

It sent me to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Wacom - which looks useful.

cheers, I was going the wacom linux drivers route.

[His Noodly Appendage]

Install version 7

[Jet Black]

I am...

now this is really nice. I'm installing it as we speak, and using the same computer at the same time. aah, live sessions, something windows could do with.

[ninewands]

I anticipate a couple of weeks work there.

One Xmas my wife bought me a Linux distribution with a intro book (she saw that I had my eye on it).

I mentioned this to an IT friend, and his comment was: "Does she know she's asking for a divorce? You'll never have time for her if you get into Linux."

I think he was only half kidding, but I've not yet really tried to get far into Linux, either.
I disagree. I find I spend MUCH less time on administrivia with Linux than I ever did on Windows, but I've been using Linux 100% since about 1999. Now, back then (Red Hat 5 & 6 days) it was pretty much an all-consuming thing, but it has gotten MUCH better in the last 5-6 years.

[ninewands]

where should I install stuff like tcl?
Your distribution doesn't install it by default?

If not, there are three possibilities for installation locations. The old-fashioned (BSD-style) location would be under /usr/local. Most SysV systems have deprecated that andd state a preference for /opt. Another common practice is to install it in your home directory.

However, I will BET its already installed. Try

$ locate libtcl

I bet its in /usr/lib. You'll probably find "wish" the Tcl/Tk windowing shell in /usr/bin.

[lpetrich]

A better approach might be to create some additional directories, as Fink (http://www.finkproject.org) does. It's a Debian-based package manager with a build system, and its default location is /sw.

The more mainstream Unix approach is to use /usr/local like that, but using it for package contents would mean that both package and directly-installed software would go there.

A good compromise might be:

/usr -- core-OS stuff
/usr/pkg -- stuff in packages
/usr/local -- stuff that's directly user-installed

This has a parallel in how X-window stuff is handled, by placing it in some directory like
/usr/X11R6

[disgracian]

I found Linux Online (http://www.linux.org/lessons/) to be pretty helpful in finding your feet and understanding basic principles.

I downloaded a minimal (and I mean minimal, it didn't even have less or vim) Debian net installation CD and just explored, using the above site and Google as guides.

Cheers,
D.

[Wordy]

Maybe this one look promising for us who fail to do partitions and fail to find drivers for our odd computers despite them being fairly modern. I bought mine 2005 and it still have no drivers for the Intel ChipSet they use 915.

I found the following Linux by accident.
Cooperative Linux is the first working free and open source method for optimally running Linux on Microsoft Windows natively.

More generally, Cooperative Linux (short-named coLinux) is a port of the Linux kernel that allows it to run cooperatively alongside another operating system on a single machine.

For instance, it allows one to freely run Linux on Windows 2000/XP, without using a commercial PC virtualization software such as VMware, in a way which is much more optimal than using any general purpose PC virtualization software.

http://www.colinux.org/

would that one work for me with my odd motherboard? I ahve win XP now and Intel says that it will only work with windows cause they have not provided enough info for the Linux developer to make driver for it. They would need to pay much money to get the licences to make routines for their chipset.

[JamesBannon]

They would need to pay much money to get the licences to make routines for their chipset.
This is the standard problem that all *nix developers (and users) face: stupid companies who will not make their specs available to the specialist developers. It is a perennial problem and one the entire community has been working on for years.

[Wordy]

And this colinux seems to be a beta thing. It is not for noobs.
http://colinux.wikia.com/wiki/CoLinux_FAQ#Q-1._What_is_the_password_for_the_.27root.27_user_.3 F

Readign that page tells me it is too advanced for me. Those who recommend it is not noobs, they are well versed using such beta software.

Very sad cause that was the first time me felt hope I could use linux on my machine.

Ok I could use a Linux emulator but I tried one such and it was incredibly slow.

And the reason one want linux is security and I don't think an emulator of linux really give protection outside of the emulator does it? You would still get infected through the ports in windows while the emulator is running?

[JamesBannon]

Wordy, try Fedora 8. I'm pretty sure that will support the chipset natively out of the box. I have a pretty unusual machine (Asus motherboard with Nvidia chipset, dual graphics cards, the works) and it supports mine without too many problems. Of course, you might have trouble with the graphics but the livna repository should have something you can use.

ETA: Download the i386 LiveCD and boot from that. If it boots then it's pretty certain the machine will run F8 happily enough. You might also want to look in rpm.livna.org to see if they have binary blobs that match your graphics card.

[pSimon]

Been using SUSE for some years. (10.3 at the moment)

About the only driver issues I've got are with VIA machines, and a few odd wifi devices.

I thought most Intel stuff was out of the box, these days?

[Wordy]

I guess me should change my handle from Wordy to Wordy Nooby cause me is noob also on doing DVD writing from downloaded iso files.
I don't trust me is able to do such things. i've tried to burn cd media and failed every time. I'm a loser when it comes to technical things. I have an evil eye or something. Things fall apart when I look at them. Especially computer stuff.

Fedora 8? But doesn't all Linux distros have same kernel. And as far as I know only Linspire claim they have worked with Intel on the 915 chipset so maybe Linspire payed Intel to have a license for doing shutdown cause my computer on its Taiwan homepage says it works solely with WinXp and maybe Vista.

Unfortunately I forgot to bookmark the page but I remember I linked to it or quoted it somewhere but could be in a hidden PM cause when I google it I fail to find it.

I would be happy if it worked but I doubt it very much. Thansk for suggesting things.

One solution me think of is to find out how one could do a kind of soft restart from within linux in a dual boot system and when the reboot take me to the choice of windows or linux I let the windows start up and I shut down the machine from there. That would take care of the proper shutdown and hopefully don't leave things mixing up start cause to do a hard shut down mess up things and one have to use the recovery of windows dvd after each time. Very dangerous, several have lost their software that way they write in forums.

Another thing holding me off from going over to linux is that I have many email accounts which took very long time to set up in email client and that set up is on windows live mail client for desktops and that one works well with hotmail and live.se mail. So that will not be easy to use unless one do a wine or similar from within Linux? I only have 512mb mem so taht maybe will not work with wine does it?

[JamesBannon]

I guess me should change my handle from Wordy to Wordy Nooby cause me is noob also on doing DVD writing from downloaded iso files.
I don't trust me is able to do such things. i've tried to burn cd media and failed every time. I'm a loser when it comes to technical things. I have an evil eye or something. Things fall apart when I look at them. Especially computer stuff.

Fedora 8? But doesn't all Linux distros have same kernel. And as far as I know only Linspire claim they have worked with Intel on the 915 chipset so maybe Linspire payed Intel to have a license for doing shutdown cause my computer on its Taiwan homepage says it works solely with WinXp and maybe Vista.

Unfortunately I forgot to bookmark the page but I remember I linked to it or quoted it somewhere but could be in a hidden PM cause when I google it I fail to find it.

I would be happy if it worked but I doubt it very much. Thansk for suggesting things.

One solution me think of is to find out how one could do a kind of soft restart from within linux in a dual boot system and when the reboot take me to the choice of windows or linux I let the windows start up and I shut down the machine from there. That would take care of the proper shutdown and hopefully don't leave things mixing up start cause to do a hard shut down mess up things and one have to use the recovery of windows dvd after each time. Very dangerous, several have lost their software that way they write in forums.

Another thing holding me off from going over to linux is that I have many email accounts which took very long time to set up in email client and that set up is on windows live mail client for desktops and that one works well with hotmail and live.se mail. So that will not be easy to use unless one do a wine or similar from within Linux? I only have 512mb mem so taht maybe will not work with wine does it?
It will fail is you're using ordinary XP burning as it doesn't produce bootable ISOs (no such problem with Nautilus). There are instructions on the Fedora web site on how to produce bootable ISOs in Windows (or you could get some from TuxDiscs for about £10 UK including postage & packing). There's a section in Fedora for Swedish users IIRC.

Mail accounts shouldn't be a problem, though I don't know if your actual settings will transfer automatically. I use Evolution for mine & it works well enough with Ntlworld, Google & Yahoo (all POP3) as well as Mail-X, IMAP & Sendmail. There are also connectors for Exchange, Lotus Notes etc, though I haven't tried those.

In answer to you question about kernels, not all distributions use the same kernel as many are customised. Many users forgo the customised ones that come with the distros and build their own using the vanilla sources from kernel.org (not a job for beginners, but doable with some technical knowledge & research).

512MB RAM is pushing it a bit for a "standard" desktop (typically KDE or GNOME) but there are many desktops that use less resources; e.g. Enlightenment; OpenBox; PekWM; GnuSTEP; etc. This is just a small selection of the available alternatives. You pick one you like and get to know it well (I use GNOME).

On the other hand, if you're happy with what you have on your current box, then why switch at all? If it's what you're used to and you like it, I see no particular rationale in switching unless it's for monetary reasons.

[Wordy]

What about this option to get Linux without destroying my windows set up?

Ms has a free version of Virtual Server.
About this Software
The following full versions of Virtual Server 2005 R2 SP1 are available for download:

• Virtual Server 2005 R2 SP1 Enterprise Edition (32-bit)
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/virtualserver/software/default.mspx

I use win xp home sp2 and the VS says it is SP1 would that be a problem?

My win xp is a swedish language version would the English version of VS then fail to work?

How could I use it for Linux then. Suppose me download the VS and install it?
How to I get the Ubuntu Linux ISO file loading up from within the Virtual Server?

I'm a wordy noob so I know nothing about such things.

Another important question. The reason me have not installed linux on my box
is due to there are no drivers available for the Intel 915 chipset on my Aopen
MZ915Z but they have such drivers in Linspire for a box that Sears sell
Mirus Linux Box but I fail to find a download of the drivers for their machine
and that one use same Intel 915 chip set as my Aopen does. so it is a mystery.

should I trust that Freespire 2.0 have same intel 915 drivers?

The important thing is that when I am using Linux in Virtual Server
and have to shut down Linux then it should end up within Windows
Desktop and not do a power down of the whole computer.

Cause it is the shut down processes that lack drivers.

[JamesBannon]

You're outside my knowledge now, Wordy. I don't know anything about VS so can't advise. Can't understand why you can't get a distro to support the Intel chipset though.

[Wordy]

I used to have a link to the site answering a support question that the machine I have only works with Windows XP and maybe Vista but that was not warranted they wrote. Maybe Vista was very new when they wrote it. I've googled for hours and failed to find that support page again.

I have tested linux on my machine and the shutdown fails. Hangs and one have to do hard reboot with power button and that corrupt the windows set up so one need to do recovery with the DVD for the machine and such is very scary when one barely get things going daily.

Forums for Linux says that there are companies that don't make drivers for linux. they want somebody to pay them first. Maybe Intel is one such company?

The funny thing is that they maybe get paid for the Sears machine that Aopen built and that one has Linspire on it but Linspire cost money and I don't trust the regular free Freespire has same drivers as the paid version that is specially made for that Sears box with linux preinstalled. And there is no download anyware of that software either.

One would have to buy a 200USD machine or know somebody having one and that way asking him to make a DVD vith the software.

[Wordy]

I thought me could use the Microsoft Virtual Server but one need to have winxp pro and I have home edition.

What about wmware virtual server? Does that one need winxp professional too?

[llanitedave]

Forums for Linux says that there are companies that don't make drivers for linux. they want somebody to pay them first. Maybe Intel is one such company?

.

Intel is pretty supportive of Linux and open-source software, actually. You may have a driver problem, but I doubt that it's coming from Intel.

[Wordy]

As I remember it the guy answering was responsible for having a working WUBI so he must or should know what he talks about unless he just want to give that appearance to us.

Had there been a solution to my hardware he would have proudly given it. that he gave up could indicate my hardware was a lost cause or hopeless case of nobody paying them to do it.