SMS and Testy debate the Problem of evil -

Rathpig · 03-07-2011, 08:00 PM

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You fail to distinguish between theology and mythology.

Theology is merely an attempt to justify believing in myths.
So you are correct, any real distinction is lost on me.

Is theology or religion the business model part? Because that is all that really counts.

TestyCalibrate · 03-07-2011, 08:10 PM

:

I'd say that Xianity is an undoing of the unique absence of the myth of the eternal return found in Judaism.

That has to be the most confusing sentence construction imaginable...

A sad fact I have to live with. I submit without editing. My thought make sense to me but typically need some editing to make sense to anyone else.

What I mean is I think that xianity is more pagan than judaic for the following reasons.

Judaism uniquely among mythic worldviews presents time as linear. I believe that all other mythologies, (I could be missing an exception but I don't know of one) consider time to be cyclic. A periodic destruction and renewal of the universe. A cleansing wash to start again as perfect. We always live in the end times because we are obviously in a far from a perfect world.

Judaism radically split from that tradition and posited a timeline. We can look at events on it as either pleasing or displeasing god but they are all past events. There is no cleansing. The events are instructive. They point toward understanding the universe rather than playing a part destined to be played over and over eternally.

Xianity re-introduced at least a single cleansing and posits that the next cleansing will lead, not to a new cycle of degrading but to the perfect world beneath. Plato's perfect forms.

Or something like that.

:

Judaism was the first and afaik the only mythic worldview to place time as linear and not cyclical. the idea of the messiah and God's kingdom are a step back to pagan cyclical concepts. The idea that what is made dirty through experience can be made clean again.

I am not sure about the 'first and only', or the rest...

The muse of brevity spurns my advances.

Figuer · 03-07-2011, 08:16 PM

:

You fail to distinguish between theology and mythology.

Theology is merely an attempt to justify believing in myths.

No, it has also been about refuting them.

:

So you are correct, any real distinction is lost on me.

Is theology or religion the business model part? Because that is all that really counts.

Get out.

Figuer · 03-07-2011, 08:18 PM

:

I'd say that Xianity is an undoing of the unique absence of the myth of the eternal return found in Judaism.

That has to be the most confusing sentence construction imaginable...

A sad fact I have to live with. I submit without editing. My thought make sense to me but typically need some editing to make sense to anyone else.

What I mean is I think that xianity is more pagan than judaic for the following reasons.

Judaism uniquely among mythic worldviews presents time as linear. I believe that all other mythologies, (I could be missing an exception but I don't know of one) consider time to be cyclic. A periodic destruction and renewal of the universe. A cleansing wash to start again as perfect. We always live in the end times because we are obviously in a far from a perfect world.

Judaism radically split from that tradition and posited a timeline. We can look at events on it as either pleasing or displeasing god but they are all past events. There is no cleansing. The events are instructive. They point toward understanding the universe rather than playing a part destined to be played over and over eternally.

Xianity re-introduced at least a single cleansing and posits that the next cleansing will lead, not to a new cycle of degrading but to the perfect world beneath. Plato's perfect forms.

I am not seeing it...

TestyCalibrate · 03-07-2011, 08:21 PM

:

I'd say that Xianity is an undoing of the unique absence of the myth of the eternal return found in Judaism.

That has to be the most confusing sentence construction imaginable...

A sad fact I have to live with. I submit without editing. My thought make sense to me but typically need some editing to make sense to anyone else.

What I mean is I think that xianity is more pagan than judaic for the following reasons.

Judaism uniquely among mythic worldviews presents time as linear. I believe that all other mythologies, (I could be missing an exception but I don't know of one) consider time to be cyclic. A periodic destruction and renewal of the universe. A cleansing wash to start again as perfect. We always live in the end times because we are obviously in a far from a perfect world.

Judaism radically split from that tradition and posited a timeline. We can look at events on it as either pleasing or displeasing god but they are all past events. There is no cleansing. The events are instructive. They point toward understanding the universe rather than playing a part destined to be played over and over eternally.

Xianity re-introduced at least a single cleansing and posits that the next cleansing will lead, not to a new cycle of degrading but to the perfect world beneath. Plato's perfect forms.

I am not seeing it...

this

ETA: Unless you really care, I don't recommend reading it. It is an excellent investigation and analysis on a specific element of comparative religions but it's about as dry and boring as is possible for academic writing to achieve.

Figuer · 03-07-2011, 08:31 PM

:

this

ETA: Unless you really care, I don't recommend reading it. It is an excellent investigation and analysis on a specific element of comparative religions but it's about as dry and boring as is possible for academic writing to achieve.

Sounds interesting, but presently I am not buying books, but rather selling my library ( keeping the art/architecture section, and a few necessary works from other sections).

TestyCalibrate · 03-07-2011, 08:37 PM

I understand. I have too many books myself. I will be divesting soon hopefully.

Figuer · 03-07-2011, 08:39 PM

Mainly:

I don't think that it is a Jewish invention. Seems like one of those ideas taken from Babylon-Persia.

I don't see how Christianity is non-lineal.

I don't see how Greek Paganism differed in a time conception from Hebrew religion. Both held a time progression where the same patterns were repeated, but on different scales.

There is much repetition in Hebrew mythology. The Egyptian exile seems to be a purposeful construction to make the Babylonian exile seem like a recurrence, in order to maintain hope.

TestyCalibrate · 03-07-2011, 08:42 PM

I don't type fast enough to answer that Figuer. All good points. But I still think Judaism was a distinct break and that it stands alone on that issue. If you care, that book is truly a milestone in Comparative Religion. Don't be fooled by the impostors.

Figuer · 03-07-2011, 08:46 PM

:

I don't type fast enough to answer that Figuer. All good points. But I still think Judaism was a distinct break and that it stands alone on that issue. If you care, that book is truly a milestone in Comparative Religion. Don't be fooled by the impostors.

I am tempted. Eliade seems like my kind, from a picture I saw of him dressed in classical attire, and some of his ideas.

Preno · 03-07-2011, 08:47 PM

:

I am tempted. Eliade seems like my kind

Yeah, he was an anti-Semite alright.

Figuer · 03-07-2011, 08:54 PM

Just saw a picture of Eliade's apartment building in Bucharest. It has the same art deco lines and window/balcony disposition of the apartment building I used to live in San Juan. Probably the local architect copied some international prototype. It had been built in 1939 and the tile work had swastikas. I loved that apartment.

TestyCalibrate · 03-07-2011, 08:59 PM

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I am tempted. Eliade seems like my kind

Yeah, he was an anti-Semite alright.

everyone has their issues...

Figuer · 03-07-2011, 09:11 PM

:

I am tempted. Eliade seems like my kind

Yeah, he was an anti-Semite alright.

everyone has their issues...

or rather non issues...

TestyCalibrate · 03-07-2011, 09:23 PM

Everyone has their non-issues too.

SMS · 03-07-2011, 09:57 PM

:

Length: 3-5 rounds. I'd say 4 with an opener, 2 arguments and a closer but whatever SMS wants is fine.

Word count: Not too many but no restrictions.

Timing: All posts must be posted within 2 days (not counting weekends) of the previous post.

SMS, do you agree with these terms?

:

Same reference, Figgy. Presume I speak of the omnigod.

Brahman? The problem of evil applies not to it, since it isn't defined within anthropomorphic moral limits.

Such is the problem of the anthropomorphic deities, such as Zeus or Yaweh.

The god of classical theism is far from anthropomorphic. Heck, we cannot even predicate something or some property to him in the literal sense.

OMG! WTF?

SMS! Think man! Think!

I was stating a historical fact.

TestyCalibrate · 03-07-2011, 10:05 PM

Holy shit SMS. You have your categories fucked up I think. You provided a frame, an analysis, not a fact.

ETA: Also you just undid all of western theology.

Figuer · 03-07-2011, 10:11 PM

:

I was stating a historical fact.

No, you were stating unhistorical nonsense.

Rathpig · 03-07-2011, 10:21 PM

I'm really looking forward to this debate.
You guys should wear Mexican wrestling costumes and post Utub vidyas.

Figuer · 03-07-2011, 10:31 PM

:

I'm really looking forward to this debate.
You guys should wear Mexican wrestling costumes and post Utub vidyas.

Considering the content of your posts in this thread, I assume you'll be the water boy.

Rathpig · 03-07-2011, 10:35 PM

and you, Figgy, can be the ring-girl.

Figuer · 03-07-2011, 10:38 PM

:

and you, Figgy, can be the ring-girl.

I am too butch for that... but I can massage the fighters.

Rathpig · 03-07-2011, 10:54 PM

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... but I can massage the fighters.

That would probably be just Testy. The other guy works overtime massaging himself.

SMS · 03-07-2011, 11:45 PM

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Holy shit SMS. You have your categories fucked up I think. You provided a frame, an analysis, not a fact.

ETA: Also you just undid all of western theology.

no. it's a historical fact that its conception is how i said it was and that you cannot predicate something to it.

TestyCalibrate · 03-08-2011, 03:24 AM

Source?

03-07-2011, 08:37 PM	#1329984 / #82
TestyCalibrate Someone oughta fix the door dummy : Sep 2008 : I've mistaken blueberries for blueberries! : 20,320	I understand. I have too many books myself. I will be divesting soon hopefully. __________________ Cabin fever.

03-07-2011, 08:39 PM	#1329992 / #83
Figuer Senior Member : Apr 2009 : 28,265	Mainly: I don't think that it is a Jewish invention. Seems like one of those ideas taken from Babylon-Persia. I don't see how Christianity is non-lineal. I don't see how Greek Paganism differed in a time conception from Hebrew religion. Both held a time progression where the same patterns were repeated, but on different scales. There is much repetition in Hebrew mythology. The Egyptian exile seems to be a purposeful construction to make the Babylonian exile seem like a recurrence, in order to maintain hope. __________________ *Raven's Bane...*

03-07-2011, 08:42 PM	#1329995 / #84
TestyCalibrate Someone oughta fix the door dummy : Sep 2008 : I've mistaken blueberries for blueberries! : 20,320	I don't type fast enough to answer that Figuer. All good points. But I still think Judaism was a distinct break and that it stands alone on that issue. If you care, that book is truly a milestone in Comparative Religion. Don't be fooled by the impostors. __________________ Cabin fever.

03-07-2011, 08:54 PM	#1330018 / #87
Figuer Senior Member : Apr 2009 : 28,265	Just saw a picture of Eliade's apartment building in Bucharest. It has the same art deco lines and window/balcony disposition of the apartment building I used to live in San Juan. Probably the local architect copied some international prototype. It had been built in 1939 and the tile work had swastikas. I loved that apartment. __________________ *Raven's Bane...*

03-07-2011, 09:23 PM	#1330069 / #90
TestyCalibrate Someone oughta fix the door dummy : Sep 2008 : I've mistaken blueberries for blueberries! : 20,320	Everyone has their non-issues too. __________________ Cabin fever.

03-07-2011, 10:05 PM	#1330142 / #92
TestyCalibrate Someone oughta fix the door dummy : Sep 2008 : I've mistaken blueberries for blueberries! : 20,320	Holy shit SMS. You have your categories fucked up I think. You provided a frame, an analysis, not a fact. ETA: Also you just undid all of western theology. __________________ Cabin fever.

03-07-2011, 10:21 PM	#1330160 / #94
Rathpig Senior Member : Mar 2008 : 21,659	I'm really looking forward to this debate. You guys should wear Mexican wrestling costumes and post Utub vidyas.

03-07-2011, 10:35 PM	#1330175 / #96
Rathpig Senior Member : Mar 2008 : 21,659	and you, Figgy, can be the ring-girl.

03-08-2011, 03:24 AM	#1330495 / #100
TestyCalibrate Someone oughta fix the door dummy : Sep 2008 : I've mistaken blueberries for blueberries! : 20,320	Source? __________________ Cabin fever.

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