Did Christianity help science develop?

[osmanthus]

Your position is really sad dave, because one of the things that Christianity has bough us in many ways is the idea that the universe is consistent and not arbitrary. Prior to Christianity, there really was a lot of this arbitrary God-did-it thought - The sun moves across the sky because a god drags it, there is lightning because a god hits a hammer, ships sink at sea because a god is angry. The world was arbitrary and unknowable and that was a real barrier to knowledge. Christianity very much turned the world into a series of created things that were knowable, and now you are claiming that they are not knowable. That's a real step backwards.

I'm not sure this is entirely true. The bit about Christianity, that is. There may have been a lot of bog basic superstitious thought before Christianity, but there has been an awful lot of it since the advent of Christianity too.

There was also a lot of good thinking, and some bloody good engineering, well before Christianity arrived on the scene.

I do agree that Dave's position is a step backwards though, if one is capable of taking steps backwards while one's head is firmly inserted in one's rectum, which I think would make the whole MJ moon walking process quite physically challenging.

[Jet Black]

I'm not sure this is entirely true. The bit about Christianity, that is. There may have been a lot of bog basic superstitious thought before Christianity, but there has been an awful lot of it since the advent of Christianity too.

There was also a lot of good thinking, and some bloody good engineering, well before Christianity arrived on the scene.

I do agree that Dave's position is a step backwards though, if one is capable of taking steps backwards while one's head is firmly inserted in one's rectum, which I think would make the whole MJ moon walking process quite physically challenging.

I think it would make an interesting discussion actually. I'm not saying we have Christianity to thank for Science or anything (after all, a lot of things like optics and mathematics are of muslim and arabic origin) but the mindset that it allows has been helpful. (not that people have always followed that particular mindset - there is still scope within christianity to apply goddidit to everything, as we see the idiots claim whenever a storm floods a city or whatever)

[osmanthus]

I think it would make an interesting discussion actually. I'm not saying we have Christianity to thank for Science or anything (after all, a lot of things like optics and mathematics are of muslim and arabic origin) but the mindset that it allows has been helpful.

Ok, but what, exactly, is this mindset that Christianity supposedly allows, and that is not allowed by any other religion?

[Testycalibrated]

Ok, but what, exactly, is this mindset that Christianity supposedly allows, and that is not allowed by any other religion?

That the world operates according to god's laws rather than gods' interventions. Although I think some sorts of polytheistic perspectives can be useful. Small gods can be powerful ways to understand and accept the weird shit that goes on.

[osmanthus]

That the world operates according to god's laws rather than gods' interventions.

But that isn't an exclusively Christian position (ie: non-Christian origin of large chunks of optics and mathematics) nor is it consistently upheld by Christianity (ie: Catholicism's belief in miracles).

[Jet Black]

That the world operates according to god's laws rather than gods' interventions. Although I think some sorts of polytheistic perspectives can be useful. Small gods can be powerful ways to understand and accept the weird shit that goes on.

Just imagine if some of the polytheistic religions like the Romans and Greeks had somehow come across QM - we'd have Quantum Gods. how cool would that be?

[Jet Black]

But that isn't an exclusively Christian position (ie: non-Christian origin of large chunks of optics and mathematics) nor is it consistently upheld by Christianity (ie: Catholicism's belief in miracles).

oh true, but there is more of a framework there than there is with other religions as Testy says.

[Jet Black]

I've given this its own thread. Not sure which forum.... THC or Phil

[Testycalibrated]

Just imagine if some of the polytheistic religions like the Romans and Greeks had somehow come across QM - we'd have Quantum Gods. how cool would that be?

My geek side thinks that would be so cool I might not be able to stand it. My cool guy side thinks it'd be pretty alright.

[Dave Hawkins]

Here's my blog article on this topic ... http://truthmatters.info/fundies-fou...odern-science/

[osmanthus]

Nobody gives a fuck about your blog.

[Testycalibrated]

I do. I think it's great when people try to communicate.

[Testycalibrated]

I though joseph priestley made a heck of a blog about religion. Well, I guess they didn't call them blogs back then.

[Hobo Brett]

Well I agree it's not necessarily Christianity that is unique in this regard, Christianity just happened to be in power while certain scientific research and advancements occurred. Dudes like Pascal and Aquinas did not view science as competing with religion, they viewed science as something of a subset of theology. Science and math were methods of understanding God's natural laws, not a competing method of understanding reality. I find Aquinas particularly interesting because he accepted Aristotle's teachings - pagan teachings! - and adapted them through the lens of Catholicism. iow, the same thing that Christianity did with science.

[JonF]

oh true, but there is more of a framework there than there is with other religions as Testy says.

There was some pretty good stuff in early Islam.

[Brother Daniel]

I've given this its own thread. Not sure which forum.... THC or Phil

It could work in HASH, too.

[osmanthus]

Well I agree it's not necessarily Christianity that is unique in this regard, Christianity just happened to be in power while certain scientific research and advancements occurred.

Yup. And Islam just happened to be in power while certain other scientific research and advancements occurred.

And, in both cases, what was allowed to occur depended on which interpretation of the religion was favoured by the PTB at the time, and what was being researched.

Incidentally, I've also seen Indians grumbling that some of the stuff attributed to the Religion of Pieces was actually nicked from them.

[gib]

Well I agree it's not necessarily Christianity that is unique in this regard, Christianity just happened to be in power while certain scientific research and advancements occurred. Dudes like Pascal and Aquinas did not view science as competing with religion, they viewed science as something of a subset of theology. Science and math were methods of understanding God's natural laws, not a competing method of understanding reality. I find Aquinas particularly interesting because he accepted Aristotle's teachings - pagan teachings! - and adapted them through the lens of Catholicism. iow, the same thing that Christianity did with science.

tldr

[Testycalibrated]

tldr

dr

[Hobo Brett]

[Barsac]

Never heard of Copernicus and Galileo Galilei ?

[Pingu]

Ok, but what, exactly, is this mindset that Christianity supposedly allows, and that is not allowed by any other religion?

I think monotheism fosters the view that the universe is self-consistent.

You can't invoke random spirits and demons to account for specific phenomena.

[Barbarian]

I think monotheism fosters the view that the universe is self-consistent.

You can't invoke random spirits and demons to account for specific phenomena.

Either the universe has an outside operator or it is self-consistent. God-believers can only do science during the periods when they forget about their God-belief. You were a scientist even back when you were a Christian; did you ever do science and worship God at the same time?

Also
>Christianity
>monotheism
Pick one.

[Pingu]

Either the universe has an outside operator or it is self-consistent. God-believers can only do science during the periods when they forget about their God-belief. You were a scientist even back when you were a Christian; did you ever do science and worship God at the same time?

Yes.

At least in the sense I think you mean.

Also
>Christianity
>monotheism
Pick one.

Well, the first is a subset of the second.

[Barbarian]

Yes.

At least in the sense I think you mean.

Let me clarify, then. When you were squeezing your brain for a way to, say, construct a simulation model in Mathlab which would be realistic enough to matter but fast enough to finish running, odds are you weren't thinking of the tenets of your faith. You did not seek help from the Ten Commandments, nay, not even from the Psalms. You simply did not function as a religious person in those moments. Or did you?

Well, the first is a subset of the second.

I disagree with this, because I do not regard trinitarian Christians as monotheists, and they are the majority. All the babble going into explaining away how the Trinity is not three separate gods is just that, meaningless babble; they waste entire libraries' worth of books "explaining" it, then conclude that the faithful should just shut up and believe IOW "a mystery of faith". It's like Dave Hawkins' "overwhelming evidence" for a global Noachian flood, it doesn't actually exist but its existence is constantly asserted. It's just that it became politically correct to treat all the Christian theology surrounding the issue as some sort of sophisticated attempt to clarify difficult issues rather than the primitive squid ink it really is.