Dentists, Doctors, Pharma and Toothbrushes Becoming Obsolete? - Part 5 -

JonF · 06-30-2015, 09:54 PM

:

We are actually getting somewhere in this thread.

As if anyone here ever doubted that eliminating sucrose from the diet would dramatically reduce dental caries.

If "we" are getting somewhere, maybe it's because "we" finally figured that out.

Nope. I've known that from the beginning.

Could I interest you in pausing for just a minute and noting the title of this thread?

Notice that we now at long last finally have an admission by Lizzie that this indeed is at least theoretically possible.

THAT'S progress!

Had you presented it as an "in theory" proposal we would be in a very different place. All along you've presented your claims as real-world proven.

Yeah, in theory, with no consideration of practicality, dental caries could be reduced (using much more than just adequate nutrition) significantly. There will never be no need for dentists or doctors, and I can't imagine that brushing will be undesirable.

VoxRat · 06-30-2015, 11:18 PM

:

...

Could I interest you in pausing for just a minute and noting the title of this thread?

Notice that we now at long last finally have an admission by Lizzie that this indeed is at least theoretically possible.

Hey, "Careful Reading" Hawkins.
How about Carefully Reading the title of this thread?

And then Carefully Reading Pingu's post.

Where did anyone say anything about even the "theoretical possibility" that doctors, pharmaceuticals, and toothbrushes are about to become obsolete?

VoxRat · 06-30-2015, 11:55 PM

How hilarious is it that dave thinks "careful reading" makes him a better scientist than...

well, than anyone?

Dave Hawkins · 07-01-2015, 01:34 AM

Already answered.

You would know that if you were a careful reader.

Photon · 07-01-2015, 01:56 AM

:

And as I recall you said that you had fairly bad teeth growing up? Is that correct? if I am remembering that correctly then my analysis would be that you had inadequate mineral absorption for some reason. I will have to review the section where Price talks about animals feeding on mineral-depleted pastures. This is also a concern for vegetable gardens.

But in the interest of fairness, to which minerals exactly do you "analyse" that I had a malabsorptive condition? Please be specific. I might be able to help with your claim. Unless you were just handwaving in a completely non-specific flailing manner.

The fact that you have to ask me this shows me that you have not so much as even skimmed Price's book. Calcium and phosphorus. The material in his book I was referring to yesterday can be found in Chapter 20, entitled "SOIL DEPLETION AND PLANT AND ANIMAL DETERIORATION." Skim read that chapter and you will have the gist of my analysis.

Hey, Dave, you don't need to be an ass. I'm well aware of what minerals are required for healthy dentition, I was just curious which you would focus on.

Let's examine both of your proposals in turn:

Calcium deficiency

Since calcium is an essential for bone and teeth development, here are some symptoms that could arise:

- muscle cramps and aches
- insomnia
- tooth decay
- poor bone density
- confusion, depression, and forgetfulness
- tingling in extremities

So, first of all, I've already indicated that I was a competitive athlete. I had no issues with cramping or muscle aching beyond the normal rigours of exercise, and never had such an event keep me out of a competition.

I am the opposite of an insomniac. I can sit down, close my eyes, and be asleep almost anywhere at anytime. I've fallen asleep in the rear benchrack of an ML military truck, and when it went around a corner, I fell out of the truck, and was caught suspended in the webbing. That's where I woke up. On a night exercise with no moon or lights allowed I fell asleep standing up, my kit and rifle all clattered to the ground, adrenaline and fear woke me up as did the crazy amount of yelling from the section commanders and the CO who was there, but they couldn't find out who it was (no lights, you see). So, no, not an insomniac.

I did have tooth decay, which as you know CAN be contributed by a calcium deficiency, but has other causes too, the oral environment being at the top of the list as you well know.

I have excellent bone density. I was a competitive athlete for about a decade, and in the military for four years in a highly demanding physical job (combat engineering). I never had issues with brittle bones, or lack of strength. I stand 6'2", and have a wide shouldered frame. I played hockey, football, basketball and baseball. I did break my arm once playing hockey, but hey that's hockey. And it wasn't even from a big hit, I was about 12, skating backwards, did a cross-over and fell over, I used my arm to brace my fall, and got a hairline fracture. Still, for all the sports I did, it wasn't bone injuries, but rather soft tissue (ligaments, cartilage) mostly in knees and ankles that did me in. So, no brittle bones.

Confusion - never an issue, I graduated with a Governor General's medal, and made First Class Standing in an Honors Program at university. I teach now, without notes, and have done so for almost 20 years, in many disciplines: physics, calculus, statistics, fluid mechanics, engineering statics, engineering dynamics.

Depression - I'm one of the happiest people I know, though I'm cynical and not optimistic of a lot of things, which is entirely different.

Forgetfulness - No, not an issue, though I do not have a great memory for names specifically. I remember processes extremely well, I am excellent at adapting old concepts to new situations and problems, and I do a lot of reading on current research in many fields, but yeah if you ask me the names of the authors of that research I am likely to not be able to tell you. But ask me what they did, or how they found out what they did, and I'll tell you.

My extremities tingle during a special time in man's life when he loves someone very much...

Suffice it to say, I don't think calcium deficiency is an issue. I drank raw milk every day for the first 16 years of my life, and from cows on a pasture that was never fertilized with commercial fertilizer, yet still produced lots of hay from various species and clover.

VoxRat · 07-01-2015, 01:59 AM

:

How hilarious is it that dave thinks "careful reading" makes him a better scientist than...

well, than anyone?

:

Already answered*.

Indeed.
It has been.

:

You would know that if you were a careful reader.

Oh, believe me dave.
We all do.

ETA:
* also - did anyone miss the "tell"?

Photon · 07-01-2015, 02:10 AM

:

And as I recall you said that you had fairly bad teeth growing up? Is that correct? if I am remembering that correctly then my analysis would be that you had inadequate mineral absorption for some reason. I will have to review the section where Price talks about animals feeding on mineral-depleted pastures. This is also a concern for vegetable gardens.

But in the interest of fairness, to which minerals exactly do you "analyse" that I had a malabsorptive condition? Please be specific. I might be able to help with your claim. Unless you were just handwaving in a completely non-specific flailing manner.

The fact that you have to ask me this shows me that you have not so much as even skimmed Price's book. Calcium and phosphorus. The material in his book I was referring to yesterday can be found in Chapter 20, entitled "SOIL DEPLETION AND PLANT AND ANIMAL DETERIORATION." Skim read that chapter and you will have the gist of my analysis.

Phosphorus deficiency

Symptoms include:

- loss of appetite (nope)
- anxiety (nope, I am calm most always even during medical emergencies with my pets and kids - the only time I am nervous involves situations like singing and playing guitar in front of a crowd, and I'm getting pretty calm about that too)
- bone pain (nope)
- fragile bones (no)
- stiff joints (not when growing up, but I now have rheumatoid arthritis in both knees, especially after I dislocated my kneecap that one time)
- fatigue (not while growing up)
- irregular breathing (no, except at that special time in a man's life...)
- irritability (no, fuck you Dave, was that irritable? Ha ha, I was never irritable, until I had kids)
- numbness (not while growing up)
- weakness (no)
- weight change (not until I quit playing sports, since then I've gained a few)
- decreased growth and poor bone and tooth development (no, no, yes - tooth decay).

Similar to the last one Dave, I had tooth decay but none of the other signs of phosphorus deficiency. It isn't likely to be the cause. None of the plant life on our fam exhibited signs of phosphorus deficiency. But then our land was never used for intensive agricultural purposes (as it is currently defined).

So, I don't think phosphorus or calcium deficiency are the issue. My nutrition was fantastic, and very much in line with your claims of what the Price Diet entails, yet I still had tooth decay.

But when I started brushing regularly, flossing regularly, and using a fluoride toothpaste and having access to a fluoridated water supply, my incidences of dental caries went to almost nil, even with a much less nutritious diet. How do you explain this Dave?

Photon · 07-01-2015, 02:14 AM

:

And as I recall you said that you had fairly bad teeth growing up? Is that correct? if I am remembering that correctly then my analysis would be that you had inadequate mineral absorption for some reason. I will have to review the section where Price talks about animals feeding on mineral-depleted pastures. This is also a concern for vegetable gardens.

But in the interest of fairness, to which minerals exactly do you "analyse" that I had a malabsorptive condition? Please be specific. I might be able to help with your claim. Unless you were just handwaving in a completely non-specific flailing manner.

The fact that you have to ask me this shows me that you have not so much as even skimmed Price's book. Calcium and phosphorus. The material in his book I was referring to yesterday can be found in Chapter 20, entitled "SOIL DEPLETION AND PLANT AND ANIMAL DETERIORATION." Skim read that chapter and you will have the gist of my analysis.

:

Plants deficient in phosphorus are stunted in growth and often have an abnormal dark-green color. Sugars can accumulate and cause anthocyanin pigments to develop, producing a reddish-purple color. This can sometimes be seen in early spring on low phosphorus sites.

Plant & Soil Sciences eLibraryPRO

Photon - do you recall a lot of stunted plants with abnormal dark-green, or reddish purple color on the family farm of your youth?

No, not at all. There might be lower yield overall (compared to other farmers), because my dad never used commercial fertilizer on any of his property. But nothing exhibiting signs of a nutrient deficiency.

Dave Hawkins · 07-01-2015, 04:41 AM

"Confusion - never an issue ..."

Really?

LOL

Pingu · 07-01-2015, 07:21 AM

Shame about Photon's rotten teeth. He sounds quite a catch, otherwise.

Pingu · 07-01-2015, 07:23 AM

:

ETA:
* also - did anyone miss the "tell"?

I do notice that whenever Dave is accused of something, it joins his repertoire of things he accuses others of.

Photon · 07-01-2015, 08:16 AM

:

"Confusion - never an issue ..."

Really?

LOL

That's your substantive response?

Photon · 07-01-2015, 08:20 AM

:

Shame about Photon's rotten teeth. He sounds quite a catch, otherwise.

They are all quite beautiful now, dear Pingu. Thanks to interventionist dentistry, a bit of orthodontics, and a health plan that actually helped pay for it. It also helps to take oral health seriously now too.

Unlike some here who may think brushing and flossing are optional, yet fill their own cavities with a home dentistry epoxy. But they shall remain nameless.

Pingu · 07-01-2015, 08:22 AM

I don't know if it's been posted before, but there's a good article here:

Diet, nutrition and the prevention of dental diseases

:

Abstract
Oral health is related to diet in many ways, for example, nutritional influences on craniofacial development, oral cancer and oral infectious diseases. Dental diseases impact considerably on self-esteem and quality of life and are expensive to treat. The objective of this paper is to review the evidence for an association between nutrition, diet and dental diseases and to present dietary recommendations for their prevention. Nutrition affects the teeth during development and malnutrition may exacerbate periodontal and oral infectious diseases. However, the most significant effect of nutrition on teeth is the local action of diet in the mouth on the development of dental caries and enamel erosion. Dental erosion is increasing and is associated with dietary acids, a major source of which is soft drinks.

Despite improved trends in levels of dental caries in developed countries, dental caries remains prevalent and is increasing in some developing countries undergoing nutrition transition. There is convincing evidence, collectively from human intervention studies, epidemiological studies, animal studies and experimental studies, for an association between the amount and frequency of free sugars intake and dental caries. Although other fermentable carbohydrates may not be totally blameless, epidemiological studies show that consumption of starchy staple foods and fresh fruit are associated with low levels of dental caries. Fluoride reduces caries risk but has not eliminated dental caries and many countries do not have adequate exposure to fluoride.

It is important that countries with a low intake of free sugars do not increase intake, as the available evidence shows that when free sugars consumption is <15–20kg/yr (~6–10% energy intake), dental caries is low. For countries with high consumption levels it is recommended that national health authorities and decision-makers formulate country-specific and community-specific goals for reducing the amount of free sugars aiming towards the recommended maximum of no more than 10% of energy intake. In addition, the frequency of consumption of foods containing free sugars should be limited to a maximum of 4 times per day. It is the responsibility of national authorities to ensure implementation of feasible fluoride programmes for their country.

VoxRat · 07-01-2015, 10:21 AM

:

ETA:
* also - did anyone miss the "tell"?

I do notice that whenever Dave is accused of something, it joins his repertoire of things he accuses others of.

Yes - the IKYABWAI thing most kids grow out of by age twelve.

But I was talking about the clipped ambiguous grammar thing ...

:

Already answered.

... when he's bluffing.

Notice the absence of a subject?
Notice the absence of any obvious referent?

He's already answered... something, somewhere...
No not the thing you might think...
That other thing...
That you can't call him on.
Because whatever you guess it is...
It's that other thing.

Dave Hawkins · 07-01-2015, 12:48 PM

Photon, I wouldn't expect you to have those other symptoms you mention if you have a calcium or phosphorus deficiency because my understanding is that the body will pull calcium and phosphorus from the bones and teeth if it needs to in order to prevent those problems you mention. My front runner theory for why you had bad teeth as a youngster is still ... low mineral absorption as a result of mineral depleted soil on the farm, combined perhaps with too much phytic acid in the diet. I think by the time you moved to the city, "town food" was being fortified with minerals to a much greater extent than in Price's day. Also, I do think the fluoride helped although I view this as a "second best" option vs. having proper nutrition in your food.

VoxRat · 07-01-2015, 01:02 PM

:

Photon, I wouldn't expect you to have those other symptoms you mention if you have a calcium or phosphorus deficiency because my understanding is that the body will pull calcium and phosphorus from the bones and teeth if it needs to in order to prevent those problems you mention.

And where did you get that idea, pray tell? The body starts pulling calcium and phosphorus from the bones when the blood levels of calcium or phosphorus are low. Unless there's a parathyroid abnormality or something like that. In either case, it's not compatible with what Photon reported about his general health and athletic abilities as a youngster.

:

My front runner theory for why you had bad teeth as a youngster is still ... low mineral absorption as a result of mineral depleted soil on the farm, combined perhaps with too much phytic acid in the diet. I think by the time you moved to the city, "town food" was being fortified with minerals to a much greater extent than in Price's day. Also, I do think the fluoride helped although I view this as a "second best" option vs. having proper nutrition in your food.

The only "evidence" you have to support your "front runner theory for why you had bad teeth as a youngster" is that that is your only theory to start with.
Conclusion-first thinking. YEC thinking.
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest "mineral depleted soil on the farm".

My "front runner theory" is poor dental hygiene + lack of fluoride + possibly genetic &/or microbiome susceptibilities. All of which there's either direct evidence of, or good reason to suspect.

JonF · 07-01-2015, 01:05 PM

:

Photon, I wouldn't expect you to have those other symptoms you mention if you have a calcium or phosphorus deficiency because my understanding is that the body will pull calcium and phosphorus from the bones and teeth if it needs to in order to prevent those problems you mention.

Your made-up fantasy is wrong. You really think that nobody has the documented symptoms of calcium deficiency? that's even more moronic than usual.

The body is going to pull calcium from bones and teeth to add calcium to bones? Ever think of conservation of mass?

JonF · 07-01-2015, 01:06 PM

:

Photon, I wouldn't expect you to have those other symptoms you mention if you have a calcium or phosphorus deficiency because my understanding is that the body will pull calcium and phosphorus from the bones and teeth if it needs to in order to prevent those problems you mention. My front runner theory for why you had bad teeth as a youngster is still ... low mineral absorption as a result of mineral depleted soil on the farm, combined perhaps with too much phytic acid in the diet. I think by the time you moved to the city, "town food" was being fortified with minerals to a much greater extent than in Price's day. Also, I do think the fluoride helped although I view this as a "second best" option vs. having proper nutrition in your food.

The only "evidence" you have to support your "front runner theory for why you had bad teeth as a youngster" is that that is your only theory to start with.
Conclusion-first thinking. YEC thinking.
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest "mineral depleted soil on the farm".

And quite a bit that strongly suggests plenty of available minarals.

VoxRat · 07-01-2015, 01:13 PM

It's well known that when blood calcium levels are low (or parathyroid hormone is out of balance) calcium is mobilized from bones.

From teeth? I'm no so sure about that.
Certainly not from tooth enamel.

JonF · 07-01-2015, 01:41 PM

:

It's well known that when blood calcium levels are low (or parathyroid hormone is out of balance) calcium is mobilized from bones.

From teeth? I'm no so sure about that.
Certainly not from tooth enamel.

Yeah, but scavenging calcium from bones to add calcium to bones?

Dave Hawkins · 07-01-2015, 01:55 PM

:

Photon, I wouldn't expect you to have those other symptoms you mention if you have a calcium or phosphorus deficiency because my understanding is that the body will pull calcium and phosphorus from the bones and teeth if it needs to in order to prevent those problems you mention.

And where did you get that idea, pray tell? The body starts pulling calcium and phosphorus from the bones when the blood levels of calcium or phosphorus are low. Unless there's a parathyroid abnormality or something like that. In either case, it's not compatible with what Photon reported about his general health and athletic abilities as a youngster.

:

My front runner theory for why you had bad teeth as a youngster is still ... low mineral absorption as a result of mineral depleted soil on the farm, combined perhaps with too much phytic acid in the diet. I think by the time you moved to the city, "town food" was being fortified with minerals to a much greater extent than in Price's day. Also, I do think the fluoride helped although I view this as a "second best" option vs. having proper nutrition in your food.

The only "evidence" you have to support your "front runner theory for why you had bad teeth as a youngster" is that that is your only theory to start with.
Conclusion-first thinking. YEC thinking.
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest "mineral depleted soil on the farm".

My "front runner theory" is poor dental hygiene + lack of fluoride + possibly genetic &/or microbiome susceptibilities. All of which there's either direct evidence of, or good reason to suspect.

"poor dental hygiene" ... Price says

:

Some of the current theories of the chemistry of tooth decay place the responsibility on the local condition in the mouth as affected by the contributing factors provided by sugars and starches which enhance the growth of acid producing organisms. A phase of this has been closely related to the slogan that a clean tooth cannot decay. Among the difficulties in applying this interpretation is the physical impossibility of keeping teeth bacteriologically clean in the environment of the mouth. http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200251h.html

"Lack of fluoride" ... I do agree that incidence of caries is lower when water is fluoridated. "genetics" ... doubtful ... Price surveyed a wide range of genetics. "Microbiome" ... perhaps. But is this not controlled largely by diet?

VoxRat · 07-01-2015, 01:55 PM

:

It's well known that when blood calcium levels are low (or parathyroid hormone is out of balance) calcium is mobilized from bones.

From teeth? I'm no so sure about that.
Certainly not from tooth enamel.

Yeah, but scavenging calcium from bones to add calcium to bones?

Yeah.
No.
That's not going to work, is it?

Dave Hawkins · 07-01-2015, 01:56 PM

:

It's well known that when blood calcium levels are low (or parathyroid hormone is out of balance) calcium is mobilized from bones.

From teeth? I'm no so sure about that.
Certainly not from tooth enamel.

Yeah, but scavenging calcium from bones to add calcium to bones?

Oh Lord.

VoxRat · 07-01-2015, 02:04 PM

:

"poor dental hygiene" ... Price says

:

Some of the current theories of the chemistry of tooth decay place the responsibility on the local condition in the mouth as affected by the contributing factors provided by sugars and starches which enhance the growth of acid producing organisms. A phase of this has been closely related to the slogan that a clean tooth cannot decay. Among the difficulties in applying this interpretation is the physical impossibility of keeping teeth bacteriologically clean in the environment of the mouth.

That's pretty dumb.
There's a difference between "keeping teeth bacteriologically clean", and brushing to disrupt the formation of plaque.
Did Price really, somewhere in print, advocate NOT brushing your teeth???
Like you have???
If so, he's more of a crank than I thought.

:

"Lack of fluoride" ... I do agree that incidence of caries is lower when water is fluoridated.

But you think it doesn't matter if "nutrition is adequate" (in some undefined way.)

:

"genetics" ... doubtful ... Price surveyed a wide range of genetics.

Oh, bullshit.
The tools available to study genetics in any meaningful way didn't exist then.
The closest he could conceivably get to "surveying a wide range of genetics" is looking at different "races". Which is not close at all.

:

"Microbiome" ... perhaps. But is this not controlled largely by diet?

No.

07-01-2015, 07:21 AM	#2526891 / #35
Pingu I did. F. Poste. GLaDOS : Mar 2008 : UK : 60,846	Shame about Photon's rotten teeth. He sounds quite a catch, otherwise. __________________ Join me at The Skeptical Zone

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Messages:

06-30-2015, 11:55 PM	#2526838 / #28
VoxRat Senior Member : Mar 2008 : 46,746	How hilarious is it that dave thinks "careful reading" makes him a better scientist than... well, than anyone?

07-01-2015, 01:34 AM	#2526854 / #29
Dave Hawkins Senior Member : Mar 2008 : Kansas City, MO Area : 29,025	Already answered. You would know that if you were a careful reader.

07-01-2015, 04:41 AM	#2526874 / #34
Dave Hawkins Senior Member : Mar 2008 : Kansas City, MO Area : 29,025	"Confusion - never an issue ..." Really? LOL

07-01-2015, 12:48 PM	#2526912 / #41
Dave Hawkins Senior Member : Mar 2008 : Kansas City, MO Area : 29,025	Photon, I wouldn't expect you to have those other symptoms you mention if you have a calcium or phosphorus deficiency because my understanding is that the body will pull calcium and phosphorus from the bones and teeth if it needs to in order to prevent those problems you mention. My front runner theory for why you had bad teeth as a youngster is still ... low mineral absorption as a result of mineral depleted soil on the farm, combined perhaps with too much phytic acid in the diet. I think by the time you moved to the city, "town food" was being fortified with minerals to a much greater extent than in Price's day. Also, I do think the fluoride helped although I view this as a "second best" option vs. having proper nutrition in your food.

07-01-2015, 01:13 PM	#2526919 / #45
VoxRat Senior Member : Mar 2008 : 46,746	It's well known that when blood calcium levels are low (or parathyroid hormone is out of balance) calcium is mobilized from bones. From teeth? I'm no so sure about that. Certainly not from tooth enamel.