Anti-vaxxers may be required to go to school -

Pingu · 05-22-2016, 04:08 PM

I have to say, Dave's hissy fit over posting in ASS or TIH is pretty revealing. Dave isn't really a YEC or an ecowarrior. He is entirely a DaveHasToBeRightist.

And his sole motivation in posting here seems to be so he can link to a science forum where he imagined he is conducting a Wikipedia reference-link

Simultaneous exhibition with multiple octohatters and leaving them in the dust.

JonF · 05-22-2016, 04:08 PM

:

"Hampers" ...

Has a different meaning in Voxrat Dave World

Or so it would seem

FIFY.

So what's your Davination of "hampers"?

JonF · 05-22-2016, 04:10 PM

:

I guess it's possible that Dave thinks that as long as a microbe isn't from someone who is actively ill with the disease that that microbe can cause then it can induce immunity without causing disease.

Maybe.

Dave?

If yes, can you provide evidence for this? If no, what is it about microbes apart from those from people with "communicable diseases" that you think confers protection against diseases like polio?

I'm afraid that, even after all that homework, digging up and reposting posts relative to the question, the simple answer remains:

:

You don't have a clue, do you?

If you are asking me for the reductionist mechanisms of how the immune system does what it does, then you're right… I don't have a clue. But if you were asking me how to have a healthy immune system that doesn't need vaccinations, then yes I do have a clue. And I'm putting what I know into practice for myself and for my animals. So this is not just pie in the sky theoretical fluff. It's real rubber meets the road knowledge.

Then let's see your clue about how to avoid polio via your methods.

Extra credit: include data.

You won't do either, Davie-dippity-dork.

(BTW, how are you testing your methods on unvaccinated humans?)

JonF · 05-22-2016, 04:12 PM

:

I don't believe my goats will ever be sick again… I know exactly why the one got sick one time and I'm not going to repeat those conditions… And I don't believe I will ever get sick again. I think I have finally achieved a "Weston Price" type diet. Now it would be nice to have some reductionist lab analysis to provide more support for this theory, but even without this I feel it is well supported.

Yeah, 'cause nothing ever makes goats sick except for one thing.

Define your diet and why its a "Weston Price" diet.

Dave Hawkins · 05-22-2016, 04:20 PM

How to avoid polio: proper sanitation but reasonable exposure to pathogens, proper diet, proper lifestyle

My "Weston Price" diet: the "Weston Pricish" part is my tree fed goats milk. Adequate minerals. Adequate fat soluble vitamins.

Pingu · 05-22-2016, 04:27 PM

:

How to avoid polio: proper sanitation but reasonable exposure to pathogens, proper diet, proper lifestyle

Does this "reasonable exposure to pathogens" include "reasonable exposure to the polio virus"?

Dave Hawkins · 05-22-2016, 04:31 PM

I think it holds true for ANY pathogen as long as counts are low.

Pingu · 05-22-2016, 04:31 PM

:

So this is not just pie in the sky theoretical fluff.

Yes, that's exactly what it is. You have a "theory" that "natural immunisation" is effective against polio.

:

It's real rubber meets the road knowledge.

No, it is the opposite. You have presented no empirical evidence ("rubber meets the road") to support your theory at all.

Pingu · 05-22-2016, 04:32 PM

:

I think it holds true for ANY pathogen as long as counts are low.

Two questions:

How do you ensure that "counts are low"?
How do you know that exposure to one pathogen provides immunity to a different pathogen? Or doesn't it?

ETA: because this was unclear to me:

:

Dave's idea of evidence-based belief:

State what is true. Franoogle until you find something with some words that look as though they might support it. Ignore all counter evidence. Ignore all inconsistencies in the adopted position. Whine about global conspiracies when challenged.

No.

1) Start with an evidence based paradigm instead of an Alice in Wonderland paradigm.

2) Ask intelligent questions about Nature based on that paradigm

3) Realize human nature and how that affects research.

4) Google

So how does that methodology lead you to the conclusion that a "better" way of preventing polio than vaccination would be to provide "clean water and proper human waste disposal" AND to avoid hand-washing?

What is "intelligent" about a "paradigm" that says that reducing exposure to pathogens AND increasing exposure to pathogens makes any sense whatsoever as a way of preventing polio?

It's the same logic that says that a person needs SOME exercise (but not too much) every day to stay healthy ... too much becomes too strenuous and stresses the body causing it to become more susceptible to disease.

Ditto for sun exposure. Some is great. Too much can cause great pain.

Ditto for eating.

Ditto for watching TV.

Ditto for having sex.

Ditto for arguing with the yahoos on TR.

Ditto for just about everything I can think of.

The immune system is no different. It needs SOME exercise. But too much under certain circumstances can be overwhelming.

Do you understand that to get "natural" immunity to polio you need exposure to the POLIO virus? Not just any old virus?

Partially true. But I do think that "general immune system exercise" can help the immune system better deal with stuff it has never seen before.

You think that you have to get the exposure "just right"? And then it will confer immunity without causing the disease?

VoxRat · 05-22-2016, 04:43 PM

:

How to avoid polio: proper sanitation but reasonable exposure to pathogens, proper diet, proper lifestyle

Vacuous.
Completely meaningless.

Proper sanitation for most people, for instance, includes hand-washing after toiletting.
But obviously you have different, unstated, ideas.

Similarly for "reasonable"

Vacuous.
Completely meaningless.

:

My "Weston Price" diet:

There's no such thing as a "Weston Price" diet. He never spelled one out, AFAICT. He just noted different diets of different "primitive" peoples.

:

the "Weston Pricish" part is my tree fed goats milk. Adequate minerals. Adequate fat soluble vitamins.

You have no data on the mineral or fat-soluble vitamin content. You're just guessing.

Pingu · 05-22-2016, 04:43 PM

So let me see if I've got this right:

Dave thinks that small doses of lots of pathogens confers immunity to each of those pathogens without causing the disease.

But that the dose of polio virus you'd get from the bodily wastes of someone with active illness would be Too Much.

Is that about right, Dave?

VoxRat · 05-22-2016, 04:44 PM

:

I think it holds true for ANY pathogen as long as counts are low.

Since it is completely vacuous and without meaning, it holds equally true for any pathogen. I'll grant you that.

Pingu · 05-22-2016, 04:48 PM

:

How to avoid polio: proper sanitation but reasonable exposure to pathogens, proper diet, proper lifestyle

Vacuous.
Completely meaningless.

Proper sanitation for most people, for instance, includes hand-washing after toiletting.
But obviously you have different, unstated, ideas.

Similarly for "reasonable"

Vacuous.
Completely meaningless.

:

My "Weston Price" diet:

There's no such thing as a "Weston Price" diet. He never spelled one out, AFAICT. He just noted different diets of different "primitive" peoples.

:

the "Weston Pricish" part is my tree fed goats milk. Adequate minerals. Adequate fat soluble vitamins.

You have no data on the mineral or fat-soluble vitamin content. You're just guessing.

He is also getting a far greater proportion of his calories from saturated fats and has a far larger daily consumption of saturated fats than recommended on the basis of evidence-based studies for avoidance of CHD.

But back to "better ways" of avoiding polio than vaccines....

Or, better still, to the topic of this thread, which is educating parents about the vaccinations against childhood diseases that are required of children in the Canadian school system, including polio, measles, mumps and rubella, but not AFAIK including seasonal flu, before giving them exemption.

Everything else should be moved to the other thread.

And perhaps breast-feeding to its own thread. Dave still owes me a reply on that.

Dave Hawkins · 05-22-2016, 05:03 PM

:

So this is not just pie in the sky theoretical fluff.

Yes, that's exactly what it is. You have a "theory" that "natural immunisation" is effective against polio.

:

It's real rubber meets the road knowledge.

No, it is the opposite. You have presented no empirical evidence ("rubber meets the road") to support your theory at all.

No it's not pie in the sky. There are (or were) many cultures all over the world living this way.

Dave Hawkins · 05-22-2016, 05:05 PM

:

So let me see if I've got this right:

Dave thinks that small doses of lots of pathogens confers immunity to each of those pathogens without causing the disease.

But that the dose of polio virus you'd get from the bodily wastes of someone with active illness would be Too Much.

Is that about right, Dave?

I'm not sure how close to the edge of the sheer cliff I can walk without falling off. I'd feel a bit safer having a safety margin.

VoxRat · 05-22-2016, 05:07 PM

:

So this is not just pie in the sky theoretical fluff.

Yes, that's exactly what it is. You have a "theory" that "natural immunisation" is effective against polio.

:

It's real rubber meets the road knowledge.

No, it is the opposite. You have presented no empirical evidence ("rubber meets the road") to support your theory at all.

No it's not pie in the sky. There are (or were) many cultures all over the world living this way.

And where is the data on their infectious disease incidence?

The remnant of the Wai Wai people (just for instance), I would wager, would have dwindled to zero if they had rejected vaccination against smallpox, polio, measles, etc.

Dave Hawkins · 05-22-2016, 05:08 PM

"Two questions"

1) By living in accordance with Nature's designs.
2) Because I am exposed constantly to many pathogens on a daily basis yet I don't get sick.

Dave Hawkins · 05-22-2016, 05:10 PM

"Saturated fats"

True but the Omega 6 / Omega 3 ratio is balanced.

Thus ... No problem.

VoxRat · 05-22-2016, 05:12 PM

:

"Two questions"

1) By living in accordance with Nature's designs.
2) Because I am exposed constantly to many pathogens on a daily basis yet I don't get sick.

I notice Hawkins did not quote the actual questions. There is a reason for that.
Here are the questions:

:

I think it holds true for ANY pathogen as long as counts are low.

Two questions:

How do you ensure that "counts are low"?
How do you know that exposure to one pathogen provides immunity to a different pathogen? Or doesn't it?

Notice that his "answers" do not answer those questions.

VoxRat · 05-22-2016, 05:15 PM

:

"Two questions"

1) By living in accordance with Nature's designs.

Meaningless.

:

2) Because I am exposed constantly to many pathogens* on a daily basis yet I don't get sick.

What pathogens are you exposed to on a daily basis? You have no idea.

You certainly are NOT exposed to polio, measles, mumps, rubella... i.e. pathogens for which childhood vaccinations are recommended. I.e. the pathogens that are the subject of this thread

ETA:.

* So now you agree there is such a thing as a "pathogen".
I guess that's progress.

VoxRat · 05-22-2016, 05:17 PM

:

"Saturated fats"

True but the Omega 6 / Omega 3 ratio is balanced.

Thus ... No problem.

A. You have no idea what the Ω3 or Ω6 content of your diet is.
B. "balanced" has no meaning without context.

Pingu · 05-22-2016, 05:20 PM

:

So this is not just pie in the sky theoretical fluff.

Yes, that's exactly what it is. You have a "theory" that "natural immunisation" is effective against polio.

:

It's real rubber meets the road knowledge.

No, it is the opposite. You have presented no empirical evidence ("rubber meets the road") to support your theory at all.

No it's not pie in the sky. There are (or were) many cultures all over the world living this way.

And did they get polio?

Pingu · 05-22-2016, 05:24 PM

:

I think it holds true for ANY pathogen as long as counts are low.

Two questions:

How do you ensure that "counts are low"?
How do you know that exposure to one pathogen provides immunity to a different pathogen? Or doesn't it?

:

"Two questions"

1) By living in accordance with Nature's designs.
2) Because I am exposed constantly to many pathogens on a daily basis yet I don't get sick.

Do you honestly think these responses are answers to my questions?

If so, you really are stupider than I thought. You appear unable even to understand simple English.

Pingu · 05-22-2016, 05:24 PM

:

"Two questions"

1) By living in accordance with Nature's designs.
2) Because I am exposed constantly to many pathogens on a daily basis yet I don't get sick.

I notice Hawkins did not quote the actual questions. There is a reason for that.
Here are the questions:

:

I think it holds true for ANY pathogen as long as counts are low.

Two questions:

How do you ensure that "counts are low"?
How do you know that exposure to one pathogen provides immunity to a different pathogen? Or doesn't it?

Notice that his "answers" do not answer those questions.

I wonder if he even intended them to be. They bear no relation to either.

Dave Hawkins · 05-22-2016, 05:28 PM

:

So this is not just pie in the sky theoretical fluff.

Yes, that's exactly what it is. You have a "theory" that "natural immunisation" is effective against polio.

:

It's real rubber meets the road knowledge.

No, it is the opposite. You have presented no empirical evidence ("rubber meets the road") to support your theory at all.

No it's not pie in the sky. There are (or were) many cultures all over the world living this way.

And where is the data on their infectious disease incidence?

The remnant of the Wai Wai people (just for instance), I would wager, would have dwindled to zero if they had rejected vaccination against smallpox, polio, measles, etc.

Perhaps.

Or ... Contact could have been made gradually instead of abruptly.

My goat got sick because of an abrupt change.

05-22-2016, 04:08 PM	#2653050 / #101
Pingu I did. F. Poste. GLaDOS : Mar 2008 : UK : 60,846	I have to say, Dave's hissy fit over posting in ASS or TIH is pretty revealing. Dave isn't really a YEC or an ecowarrior. He is entirely a DaveHasToBeRightist. And his sole motivation in posting here seems to be so he can link to a science forum where he imagined he is conducting a Simultaneous exhibition with multiple octohatters and leaving them in the dust. __________________ Join me at The Skeptical Zone

05-22-2016, 04:43 PM	#2653065 / #111
Pingu I did. F. Poste. GLaDOS : Mar 2008 : UK : 60,846	So let me see if I've got this right: Dave thinks that small doses of lots of pathogens confers immunity to each of those pathogens without causing the disease. But that the dose of polio virus you'd get from the bodily wastes of someone with active illness would be Too Much. Is that about right, Dave? __________________ Join me at The Skeptical Zone

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Messages:

05-22-2016, 04:20 PM	#2653054 / #105
Dave Hawkins Senior Member : Mar 2008 : Kansas City, MO Area : 29,025	How to avoid polio: proper sanitation but reasonable exposure to pathogens, proper diet, proper lifestyle My "Weston Price" diet: the "Weston Pricish" part is my tree fed goats milk. Adequate minerals. Adequate fat soluble vitamins.

05-22-2016, 04:31 PM	#2653058 / #107
Dave Hawkins Senior Member : Mar 2008 : Kansas City, MO Area : 29,025	I think it holds true for ANY pathogen as long as counts are low.

05-22-2016, 05:08 PM	#2653071 / #117
Dave Hawkins Senior Member : Mar 2008 : Kansas City, MO Area : 29,025	"Two questions" 1) By living in accordance with Nature's designs. 2) Because I am exposed constantly to many pathogens on a daily basis yet I don't get sick.

05-22-2016, 05:10 PM	#2653072 / #118
Dave Hawkins Senior Member : Mar 2008 : Kansas City, MO Area : 29,025	"Saturated fats" True but the Omega 6 / Omega 3 ratio is balanced. Thus ... No problem.