Wonder Woman the Way Warners Bros Won't Do It

[Sentinel]

But Westerns didn't invent their plots. They borrowed them from fantasy.

[schneibler elf]

But Westerns didn't invent their plots. They borrowed them from fantasy.

Or from kirosawa (same as lucas did)

[TySixtus]

Westerns are about frontiers, and about how law and order emerge out of chaotic expansion. Where is the frontier in Star Wars? It is pure space-opera/fantasy.

[schneibler elf]

Space is the final frontier. The movie stars off on a planet that reminds you of that.

Eta e.g. http://www.spacewesterns.com/articles/116/

[schneibler elf]

And Lucas pretty much lifted most of its elements from western themes, and movies like this

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hidden_Fortress

[sanshou]

it's based in part on the hidden fortress. kurosawa's samurai movies are very similar to and have inspired many westerns.

eta: damina delete your post

[TySixtus]

Space is the final frontier.

By this logic, any story that takes place in space is a Western, since space is likely never to be completely explored in any fictional universe and will always have some part of it that is empty, uninhabited, or unknown.

Firefly is a Western because it is all about people trying to make their way outside the traditional rules of law and order. It is about individualism and resilience driving people to explore and build a life for themselves outside the strictures imposed by a government.

Star Wars has none of that -- it is about open rebellion, good vs. evil. There is no intentional moral ambiguity (I say intentional because Jedi are really psychopaths in disguise but that's is owed to Lucas' accidental shitty writing), no chronicling of how people live outside the law or away from traditional power structures. Just because Han Solo is modeled after a gunslinger and they visit a cantina does not make it a "Western."

[schneibler elf]

i accept your apology on behalf of that guy you called "a fucking moron"

eta this is not something I or that guy you called "a fucking moron" made up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_W...table_examples

feel free to dig in your heels and disagree!

[TySixtus]

Lol your response makes no sense.

[schneibler elf]

you were wrong, just calm down and this too shall pass

[TySixtus]

i accept your apology on behalf of that guy you called "a fucking moron"

eta this is not something I or that guy you called "a fucking moron" made up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_W...table_examples

feel free to dig in your heels and disagree!

1) It doesn't matter what George Lucas says. I can say I'm trying to write an epic fantasy, but if it comes out as horror then it is horror.

2) Even your own link doesn't call it a space western. What it says is:

George Lucas attributes the character of Boba Fett to the Man with No Name in the DVD commentary on The Empire Strikes Back.[4] Han Solo's original costume and charming rogue gunslinger mannerisms also reflects the Western's influence on Star Wars.

Wow, two characters are like some dudes you might see in a Western! I'm sold!

Try having an original thought for yourself instead of quoting "Spacewesterns.com" and a wikipedia page. Think about the shit you are actually saying.

[TySixtus]

*tries to force it*

[schneibler elf]

eta (that is your hands flailing)

[sanshou]

jesus christ ty

[TySixtus]

Neither one of you has made any kind of argument. You're just posting links.

Why don't you actually construct some kind of reasoning? Can you define what a "Western" is, and why Star Wars is one of them?

[rednoise]

Westerns are about frontiers, and about how law and order emerge out of chaotic expansion. Where is the frontier in Star Wars? It is pure space-opera/fantasy.

i'd give you that "law and order" are pretty integral to a Western story, and those other themes can be common in older westerns, but it doesn't need to be about frontiers or set during Manifest Destiny. the Sam Peckinpah westerns couldn't give less of a shit about romantic frontiers. Breaking Bad and No Country For Old Men have been called modern westerns, and i think there's merit to that beyond them being set in the southwest.

but even so, tBe is pretty much right. i mean, it's a common phrase and thought that space is considered the "final frontier." that cliché pops up with space nerds all the time, and it's a well-known phrase thanks to Star Trek (which could also be considered something of a western by your own criteria, since they actually do go and explore unknown places and are concerned with law and order.) to that point, Star Wars contains a lot of tropes and themes found in westerns, enough to the point that it could be considered a "space western."

[schneibler elf]

my work here is done

[rednoise]

It is about individualism and resilience driving people to explore and build a life for themselves outside the strictures imposed by a government.

lol. and what does this have to do with anything being a western? this doesn't make a movie a western. ayn rand wrote three goddamn books about just that. that doesn't make her fuckin larry mcmurtry all of the sudden.

[TySixtus]

to that point, Star Wars contains a lot of tropes and themes found in westerns,

Like what? For this argument to make sense, it has to contain the central themes of a Western, and it has to contain them to the exclusion of other things.

The "frontier" bit does not really make the case, because as I wrote before under this criteria every single piece of fiction about space would now be classified as a Western. Obviously that can't be the case, because then the term "space western" would have no meaning. The only way to talk about the "frontier" of space is to talk about it in terms of exploring it. Star Wars does not give a shit about uncovering the frontier of space. I'm struggling to think of a single scene in Star Wars that is concerned with exploring the frontier of space, or discovering a new place, or of some resilient folks trying to make their way across it to find a better life.

So if you don't mind, please elaborate on what the themes of a Western are, and how Star Wars contains them.

[TySixtus]

lol. and what does this have to do with anything being a western?

Because this was one of the primary reasons why people moved west? They wanted cheap land, open space, and the chance to live on their own.

[TySixtus]

my work here is done

[sanshou]

whoever would think of 'western' when seeing things like shootouts in saloons and men roaming the dusty landscape with pistols strapped to their thighs. that's just crazy

[schneibler elf]

whoever would think of 'western' when seeing things like shootouts in saloons and men roaming the dusty landscape with pistols strapped to their thighs. that's just crazy

and the mysterious retired mythical lawman living in the wilderness, called back into duty for one last job, culminating in a final duel with the main bad guy witnessed by the entire town

[schneibler elf]

[rednoise]

Because this was one of the primary reasons why people moved west? They wanted cheap land, open space, and the chance to live on their own.

Westerns have moved beyond that, though. I'd say that isn't even integral to being a Western. There were plenty of groups that moved out west as groups and without the purpose of being American Individualists. There are some Westerns that blatantly disregard anything about the individual, in regards to the government. Even the John Wayne flicks where he was playing some rough and tumble sheriff. Beyond that (mixing in books with movies now...) you got Blood Meridian, where these marauders are killing people actively at the request of the American and Mexican governments. In Dances With Wolves, he starts out as an individual, sure, but slowly submits himself to a tribal community that adheres to what Marx would probably call "primitive communism." If you get right down to it, many Westerns are about communities or groups of people or governments themselves. You only get this "individualist" trope, really, if the Western is primarily about the lone wolf bank robber or some mysterious archetype like the Man With No Name, which the more I think about it seem to be relatively rare in the genre.