ISIS

[teeth!]

that's hard to tell atm. there are a lot of sunnis who have said that they get a better deal with the Islamic State, which is why the IS were able to take a lot of territory without much resistance in major sunni areas. that's not entirely unbelievable, considering how much al-Maliki has completely fucked everything up. of course, the reality is different for Shiites, Yezidis, Christians, etc.

eta. either way -- whether or not they're actually improving services and the standard of living, or whether it's just a strong perception -- the fact that they're being recognizes in this fashion is what is helping them out and helping them control what's going on.

At risk of godwinning the shit out of this thread, a lot of Germans felt that Hitler was good for Germany and was improving the economy and social services for ethnic Germans. Hitler largely did this at great expense to ethnic minorities, who had property expropriated and who were exploited for slave labor in work camps.

When a radical genocidal group is improving the quality of life for one group at the expense of mass murder and slavery, that shouldn't make us question whether ISIS is maybe a little bit good, but rather that the non-combatants supporting them might be a whole lot of shitty.

[rednoise]

At risk of godwinning the shit out of this thread, a lot of Germans felt that Hitler was good for Germany and was improving the economy and social services for ethnic Germans. Hitler largely did this at great expense to ethnic minorities, who had property expropriated and who were exploited for slave labor in work camps.

When a radical genocidal group is improving the quality of life for one group at the expense of mass murder and slavery, that shouldn't make us question whether ISIS is maybe a little bit good, but rather that the non-combatants supporting them might be a whole lot of shitty.

jesus christ. no one is suggesting that the Islamic State is even a little bit good, you doofus. it is helpful to see where the source of ISIS' popularity and strength comes from, especially when you're trying to formulate a policy that is aimed toward defeating them. MOAR BOMBS is not going to defeat ISIS unless you're willing to do it in such a fashion that would basically tear down all the conventions of international law that were set up in the wake of the fall of Nazi Germany.

[ksen]

Maybe we should fund a one-stop website for Sunnis to sign up for social services.

[rednoise]

Maybe we should fund a one-stop website for Sunnis to sign up for social services.

we could get the canadians to set it up.

[gandalf]

im p sure its imp0ssible to assess there p0pularity when theyre telling evry1 to convert or die

Palestinian Parody about ISIS - YouTube

Palestinian Parody about ISIS - YouTube

[TySixtus]

MOAR BOMBS is not going to defeat ISIS unless

There is no component of any solution that does not involve a military defeat for ISIS. There cannot be a political solution. Their leadership -- if not the entire fucking force -- needs to be annihilated. Wiped off the Earth.

But you are absolutely correct with regards to (the perception of) ISIS's willingness to provide for the communities they occupy. That is a big part of it. The problem is, it really doesn't matter now. The only thing it is useful for is acting as a blueprint for any other dumb ass, short-sighted religiously inspired government idiots like al Maliki on what not to do.

[TySixtus]

AP breaking news: 09.02.2014
ISIS Releases YouTube Video Showing Execution of Missing American Journalist Steven Sotloff

msn link

This is authentic, apparently.

[Lion IRC]

One thing you can say about them is they ARE unambiguous.
I'd rather deal with that sort of enemy than one that keeps you guessing.

[teeth!]

But you are absolutely correct with regards to (the perception of) ISIS's willingness to provide for the communities they occupy. That is a big part of it. The problem is, it really doesn't matter now. The only thing it is useful for is acting as a blueprint for any other dumb ass, short-sighted religiously inspired government idiots like al Maliki on what not to do.

To be fair, the Germans were also pretty satisfied with the Nazi persecution of Jews etc because the Nazis seized and redistributed untermenschen property and fueled German economic growth with untermenschen slave labor. Some of the Sunnis in the region are happy with ISIS not in spite of their atrocities, but because of them; killing Christians, Yazidis, and etc means that properties are now available, that goods and possessions can be seized, that captured women can be forces into marriages, etc. Not to mention they can act on latent bigotry without any consequences.

The way we convinced Germany that the Nazis were bad for them was we firebombed the shit out of major German cities, made it goddamned clear that we would annihilate them if Germany continued down that path, and then paraded Nazi atrocities out on the world stage so that the German supporters of the Nazis were climbing over each other to denounce the Nazi philosophy.

Hit ISIS hard. Kill the fuckers. Kill the fuckers giving them shelter.

[daap-umop-bnp]

What we need is a cowboy in the Oval Office who will show those bastards what's what.

[el jefe]

To be fair, the Germans were also pretty satisfied with the Nazi persecution of Jews etc because the Nazis seized and redistributed untermenschen property and fueled German economic growth with untermenschen slave labor. Some of the Sunnis in the region are happy with ISIS not in spite of their atrocities, but because of them; killing Christians, Yazidis, and etc means that properties are now available, that goods and possessions can be seized, that captured women can be forces into marriages, etc. Not to mention they can act on latent bigotry without any consequences.

The way we convinced Germany that the Nazis were bad for them was we firebombed the shit out of major German cities, made it goddamned clear that we would annihilate them if Germany continued down that path, and then paraded Nazi atrocities out on the world stage so that the German supporters of the Nazis were climbing over each other to denounce the Nazi philosophy.

Hit ISIS hard. Kill the fuckers. Kill the fuckers giving them shelter.

but at the same time, don't let al maliki continue pushing iraqi sunnis into their arms. i can't believe all those people are simply for or against isis. i assume it's a spectrum and some are near the fence and go back and forth, and in particular that some would be against isis if the al maliki government had made that a realistic option.

the solution is to give their supporters a carrot and a stick, not just stick, stick, stick all the time. i don't see that precluding hitting the organization itself, its leadership, and anyone who helps or hides them as hard as we can, and wiping them out.

[daap-umop-bnp]

ISIS isn't a territory-based nation. The comparisons to Germany seem a bit flimsy.

[Pavlov's Dog]

ISIS isn't a territory-based nation. The comparisons to Germany seem a bit flimsy.

The Nazis weren't a territory-based nation. The only difference is the Nazis came to power in Germany mostly politically. ISIS came to power in Iraq mostly militarily.

[teeth!]

but at the same time, don't let al maliki continue pushing iraqi sunnis into their arms. i can't believe all those people are simply for or against isis. i assume it's a spectrum and some are near the fence and go back and forth, and in particular that some would be against isis if the al maliki government had made that a realistic option.

the solution is to give their supporters a carrot and a stick, not just stick, stick, stick all the time. i don't see that precluding hitting the organization itself, its leadership, and anyone who helps or hides them as hard as we can, and wiping them out.

Realistically, the solution is to support the creation of a strong, independent Kurdistan, and if the Sunnis want independence from the Shiites, then let them have that too. The divisions are deep enough that the Shiites and Sunnis are not going to share power more than ceremonially, so coming up with strategies that pretend this is possible is going to be a failing proposition.

And if the Sunnis want an ISIS-like government, then we bomb them until they change their mind.

[TySixtus]

Also, I wonder when these fucking idiots are going to figure out that governing through their religious identities is causing them nothing but strife.

[daap-umop-bnp]

The Nazis weren't a territory-based nation. The only difference is the Nazis came to power in Germany mostly politically. ISIS came to power in Iraq mostly militarily.

But ISIS isn't in control of Iraq. Nazis were the government of Germany. And if the comparison teeth is making is intending to suggest we should do a Dresden to convince everyone how bad ISIS is, the comparison is even more ridiculous.

[ksen]

ty, persecution means you're right so the only sane response is to double down.

[el jefe]

The Nazis weren't a territory-based nation. The only difference is the Nazis came to power in Germany mostly politically. ISIS came to power in Iraq mostly militarily.

i don't know exactly what you guys mean by "territory-based nation", but i can't immediately think of a definition that distinguishes between isis and the nazis

some notable differences between the two are that germany was a major industrial power, with a large population, situated close to the capitals of several other major world powers. all of those factors amplified enormously the threat they posed. otoh, isis controls a worthless swath of desert with a few bedouins on camels, hundreds of miles from anything that matters.

it is easy to imagine containing isis and then pushing them back, with comparatively little effort. it wouldn't require, e.g., a lot of messy, urban combat like we had to do in the sunni triangle. also, not a lot of trees and bushes for them to hide their guys and equipment, etc.

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

What we need is a cowboy in the Oval Office who will show those bastards what's what.

Will a mom-jeans wearing one do?

[Pavlov's Dog]

But ISIS isn't in control of Iraq.

They are in control of a large portion of northern Iraq militarily, politically and bureaucratically. They have been governing the areas they control just like any other government.

[daap-umop-bnp]

i don't know exactly what you guys mean by "territory-based nation", but i can't immediately think of a definition that distinguishes between isis and the nazis

I mean what we in academia call a "country".

it is easy to imagine containing isis and then pushing them back, with comparatively little effort.

Abracadabra.

[daap-umop-bnp]

Will a mom-jeans wearing one do?

I should annihilate you just for asking that question.

[rednoise]

im p sure its imp0ssible to assess there :airquote: p0pularity :airquote: when theyre telling evry1 to convert or die

they're not telling the Sunnis to do that, which is the reason for their "popularity" (imagined or otherwise) in Sunni majority areas. pay attention, you retard.

[Pavlov's Dog]

they're not telling the Sunnis to do that, which is the reason for their "popularity" (imagined or otherwise) in Sunni majority areas. pay attention, you retard.

Well they are a little draconian for even a majority of the Sunni. The reason they are so popular with Sunnis is because the Sunnis were getting shitted upon for so long they consider them the lesser of two evils.

[steve_bnk]

Hitler's Brown Shits were a paramilitary force. Assassination, beatings, and intimidation. Brutalizing Jews. There were multiple violent factions when Hitler started out.

As he secured his political power he turned on them killing the leadership that could potentially challenge him in the future.

On a personal level Hitler was no less a psychopath than ISIS leaders.

Nazi and ISIS are not too far apart as a comparison. Different cultures and scenarios. Beheadings instead of concentration camps and gas chambers. Forced conformity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung

The latter stages of Hitler's rise to power had the outer trappings of a legal political process.