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11-30-2010, 06:01 PM   #1204727  /  #51
Pingu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem for your dreams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Febble
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Requiem for your dreams. Whereas Febble is never right, only sometimes not (yet) wrong.
I rest my case.
It wasn't acquiescence.

hth
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11-30-2010, 06:03 PM   #1204729  /  #52
Requiem
Dubstyle.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Febble
Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem for your dreams.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Febble I rest my case.
It wasn't acquiescence.

hth
that's not true,

hth

11-30-2010, 06:07 PM   #1204733  /  #53
TestyCalibrate
Someone oughta fix the door
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem for your dreams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TestyCalibrate
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Requiem for your dreams. even the proposition just put forward is a whole fucking set of assumptions and asserted connections between them. This is the crux: "there is a perfect truth beyond our capacity to attain." I'll give you as many words and as many rounds as you like to defend that single claim.
Great. I think it is important in context of science more than philosophy but either way. I will write a brief OP either today or tomorrow. (I have real work to try to do this afternoon so I might get bogged down.)
My OP will be shorter than yours. You will have lost before you make your opening argument.

Resolved:
there is a perfect truth beyond our capacity to attain.

Testy to propose, me to reject.

50 words for the OP. Whatever you want for general argument. I just won't read walls of text which do nothing but evade a simple question or challenge, and my single post will consist of little more than that.

Would you like me to go first?

eta: I should like to go first, it will save time.
By all means, save time. I did want to begin with a definition of truth though.
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 11-30-2010, 06:10 PM #1204738  /  #54 Requiem Dubstyle.     Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: i forget Posts: 23,616 Can't the standard definitions suffice? I mean after all, you are defending a definition in itself, the proposition asserts the existence of a truth according to a certain definition anyway. Either way, you should be able to elucidate on any specific definitions as you go along, including your usage of truth. I doubt it will affect my OP. eta: we could end up debating whether the definitions of truth are true or not if you like, but undermining the concept of truth won't help your argument. Last edited by Requiem; 11-30-2010 at 06:12 PM.
11-30-2010, 06:12 PM   #1204741  /  #55
daap-umop-bnp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TestyCalibrate
Quote:
Originally Posted by daap-umop-bnp

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Testy Calibrate and that there is a perfect truth beyond our capacity to attain
I was like uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh...waaaahhhh??!!
I'm not sure why this is such a sticking point actually. We can't count to infinity but we can keep counting for as much time as we have. The modeling corollary is that there is always more data.
It's not the beyond our capacity thing that troubles me. It's the there is a perfect truth, a claim immediately undermined by the phrase that follows.

But we can do this in the peanut gallery thread. Didn't mean to interrupt.
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11-30-2010, 06:41 PM   #1204762  /  #56
TestyCalibrate
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Requiem for your dreams. Can't the standard definitions suffice? I mean after all, you are defending a definition in itself, the proposition asserts the existence of a truth according to a certain definition anyway. Either way, you should be able to elucidate on any specific definitions as you go along, including your usage of truth. I doubt it will affect my OP. eta: we could end up debating whether the definitions of truth are true or not if you like, but undermining the concept of truth won't help your argument.
That was what I hoped to avoid with a brief definition.

Here we go: Truth is a statement that accurately predicts a perceived outcome, or that accurately reflects the outcome of a process of reason. This is separate from fact, a measured value. What I wanted to avoid was the endless regression of "then every fact is based on truths." Hopefully just the idea of first principles is enough to make the distinction meaningful.

Examples of truths,
"There is truth in old wives tales." -they are expressions of outcomes.
"The sunset is beautiful." -a personal truth, arrived at through the process of assigning value to states of being.
"F=ma" -a mathematical truth, usually the fuzzy edge between fact and truth. For my purposes, given to the truth side.
"Evolution is the process by which species diversify into new species."

Examples of facts:
"John Lennon was assassinated."
"I am 6'2" tall."
"an 8' 2x4 is 8' long."
"Humans normally have 10 fingers."

Is that ok?
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11-30-2010, 06:44 PM   #1204764  /  #57
TestyCalibrate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daap-umop-bnp
Quote:
Originally Posted by TestyCalibrate
Quote:
 Originally Posted by daap-umop-bnp I was like uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh...waaaahhhh??!!
I'm not sure why this is such a sticking point actually. We can't count to infinity but we can keep counting for as much time as we have. The modeling corollary is that there is always more data.
It's not the beyond our capacity thing that troubles me. It's the there is a perfect truth, a claim immediately undermined by the phrase that follows.

But we can do this in the peanut gallery thread. Didn't mean to interrupt.
Well, if we're gonna have a debate on whether I have any warrant for my POV, there's no point in pussyfooting around the issue now is there?

I pretty much think Anselm got it right but he was using a religious model so it doesn't translate into contemporary language. That's sometimes called incommensurability.
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11-30-2010, 06:52 PM   #1204773  /  #58
Requiem
Dubstyle.

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: i forget
Posts: 23,616

Quote:
Originally Posted by TestyCalibrate
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Requiem for your dreams. Can't the standard definitions suffice? I mean after all, you are defending a definition in itself, the proposition asserts the existence of a truth according to a certain definition anyway. Either way, you should be able to elucidate on any specific definitions as you go along, including your usage of truth. I doubt it will affect my OP. eta: we could end up debating whether the definitions of truth are true or not if you like, but undermining the concept of truth won't help your argument.
That was what I hoped to avoid with a brief definition.

Here we go: Truth is a statement that accurately predicts a perceived outcome, or that accurately reflects the outcome of a process of reason. This is separate from fact, a measured value. What I wanted to avoid was the endless regression of "then every fact is based on truths." Hopefully just the idea of first principles is enough to make the distinction meaningful.

Examples of truths,
"There is truth in old wives tales." -they are expressions of outcomes.
"The sunset is beautiful." -a personal truth, arrived at through the process of assigning value to states of being.
"F=ma" -a mathematical truth, usually the fuzzy edge between fact and truth. For my purposes, given to the truth side.
"Evolution is the process by which species diversify into new species."

Examples of facts:
"John Lennon was assassinated."
"I am 6'2" tall."
"an 8' 2x4 is 8' long."
"Humans normally have 10 fingers."

Is that ok?
Well no really. It's far to labored and complicated.
How about "true is something I can agree with according to the theory and practice of meaning I am currently using"?

 11-30-2010, 06:55 PM #1204779  /  #59 akuaku Nocturnal Member Lord High Coder     Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,047 Objection! What is trufax then? __________________ $\LARGE z_i=z_{i-1}^2+z_0 \hspace{20} \vspace{67}$
11-30-2010, 06:56 PM   #1204781  /  #60
TestyCalibrate
Someone oughta fix the door
dummy

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: I've mistaken blueberries for blueberries!
Posts: 20,320

Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem for your dreams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TestyCalibrate
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Requiem for your dreams. Can't the standard definitions suffice? I mean after all, you are defending a definition in itself, the proposition asserts the existence of a truth according to a certain definition anyway. Either way, you should be able to elucidate on any specific definitions as you go along, including your usage of truth. I doubt it will affect my OP. eta: we could end up debating whether the definitions of truth are true or not if you like, but undermining the concept of truth won't help your argument.
That was what I hoped to avoid with a brief definition.

Here we go: Truth is a statement that accurately predicts a perceived outcome, or that accurately reflects the outcome of a process of reason. This is separate from fact, a measured value. What I wanted to avoid was the endless regression of "then every fact is based on truths." Hopefully just the idea of first principles is enough to make the distinction meaningful.

Examples of truths,
"There is truth in old wives tales." -they are expressions of outcomes.
"The sunset is beautiful." -a personal truth, arrived at through the process of assigning value to states of being.
"F=ma" -a mathematical truth, usually the fuzzy edge between fact and truth. For my purposes, given to the truth side.
"Evolution is the process by which species diversify into new species."

Examples of facts:
"John Lennon was assassinated."
"I am 6'2" tall."
"an 8' 2x4 is 8' long."
"Humans normally have 10 fingers."

Is that ok?
Well no really. It's far to labored and complicated.
How about "true is something I can agree with according to the theory and practice of meaning I am currently using"?
Lol.

Ok. That works fine. Just as long as you don't use the definition to negate unknown truths. i.e. The Navier-Stokes equations are unsolvable.
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 11-30-2010, 06:56 PM #1204782  /  #61 Requiem Dubstyle.     Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: i forget Posts: 23,616 Anyway, I digress. Whatever definitions you want to play with is up to you. I don't think you'll be able to address my OP, but I'll let you go first. 50 words remember, then whatever you like (within reason). Only stipulations: i win when you fail to make a case, you when when you make a case. I'm happy to claim victory but we can go to a poll if you like.
 11-30-2010, 06:58 PM #1204787  /  #62 Requiem Dubstyle.     Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: i forget Posts: 23,616 raven or someone pls make this happen?
 11-30-2010, 06:59 PM #1204788  /  #63 TestyCalibrate Someone oughta fix the door dummy     Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: I've mistaken blueberries for blueberries! Posts: 20,320 so... you want me to go first? in 50 words? Um.. I'll try. __________________ Cabin fever.
11-30-2010, 07:01 PM   #1204794  /  #64
TestyCalibrate
Someone oughta fix the door
dummy

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Posts: 20,320

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Requiem for your dreams. Anyway, I digress. Whatever definitions you want to play with is up to you.
I like your definition. I does the same thing I was trying to do only shorter.
Quote:
 I don't think you'll be able to address my OP, but I'll let you go first. 50 words remember, then whatever you like (within reason).
Got it. You only chose that because you know I can't write short. Damn it. But I'll do it.

Quote:
 Only stipulations: i win when you fail to make a case, you when when you make a case. I'm happy to claim victory but we can go to a poll if you like.
Is that like heads I win tails you lose?
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11-30-2010, 07:05 PM   #1204802  /  #65
Requiem
Dubstyle.

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: i forget
Posts: 23,616

Quote:
Originally Posted by TestyCalibrate
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Requiem for your dreams. Anyway, I digress. Whatever definitions you want to play with is up to you.
I like your definition. I does the same thing I was trying to do only shorter.
Quote:
 I don't think you'll be able to address my OP, but I'll let you go first. 50 words remember, then whatever you like (within reason).
Got it. You only chose that because you know I can't write short. Damn it. But I'll do it.

Quote:
 Only stipulations: i win when you fail to make a case, you when when you make a case. I'm happy to claim victory but we can go to a poll if you like.
Is that like heads I win tails you lose?
Sorry, Freudian slip or something, I'm happy with either of us claiming victory.

 11-30-2010, 07:08 PM #1204804  /  #66 TestyCalibrate Someone oughta fix the door dummy     Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: I've mistaken blueberries for blueberries! Posts: 20,320 me too. __________________ Cabin fever.
11-30-2010, 07:09 PM   #1204805  /  #67
Requiem
Dubstyle.

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: i forget
Posts: 23,616

Quote:
 Originally Posted by TestyCalibrate so... you want me to go first?
Not particularly, but you seemed very keen to. You should be able to set out your stall in 50 words. You just have to make the proposition and say how you intend to demonstrate it.

Quote:
 in 50 words? Um.. I'll try.
I could do it for you if you like.

 11-30-2010, 07:12 PM #1204810  /  #68 Requiem Dubstyle.     Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: i forget Posts: 23,616 ps i wanted to keep the posts short because i prefer a more socratic approach. nobody wants to read walls of text, and if there's an ambiguity or error anywhere it makes for horrible unpacking. if you understand something, you should be able to express it simply. you know who i'm paraphrasing.
11-30-2010, 07:21 PM   #1204828  /  #69
TestyCalibrate
Someone oughta fix the door
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Ok, here's my OP whenever the RR mod wants to set it up:

Quote:
 Perfect truth is simply the knowledge of all that is, was and will be, obviously an impossible goal, though not a contradiction. To deny the necessity of perfect truth is the same as denying that knowledge can increase. Where is the limit? Infinity. Or do you deny infinity?
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 11-30-2010, 07:21 PM #1204832  /  #70 TestyCalibrate Someone oughta fix the door dummy     Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: I've mistaken blueberries for blueberries! Posts: 20,320 48 words motherfuckers. Hmmph. __________________ Cabin fever.
 11-30-2010, 07:27 PM #1204844  /  #71 ravenscape trigger warning Into the West     Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Norton's Empire Posts: 81,531 who is going first? Testy? and (I know...48 words is awesome) what is the resolution in one sentence? 1) Topic/resolution: ? (2) Participants, positions and sequence: Testy (affirmative), Req (negative)? (3) Scope: None? (4) Length in rounds: 5-6 (5) Maximum statement length: 1000 (6) Time limit between statements: One week (7) Start date: Nov 30 (8) Additional criteria: None __________________ It's all good fun until somebody loses an eye.
11-30-2010, 07:35 PM   #1204851  /  #72
TestyCalibrate
Someone oughta fix the door
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by ravenscape who is going first? Testy? and (I know...48 words is awesome) what is the resolution in one sentence? 1) Topic/resolution: there is a perfect truth beyond our capacity to attain. (2) Participants, positions and sequence: Testy (affirmative), Req (negative) (3) Scope: None? (4) Length in rounds: Any. We will wrap it up when it is finished. Probably 3-10 rounds. (5) Maximum statement length: Any. Testy promises to be as concise as possible (6) Time limit between statements: One week (7) Start date: Nov 30 (8) Additional criteria: None
there you go.
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 11-30-2010, 07:43 PM #1204866  /  #73 ravenscape trigger warning Into the West     Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Norton's Empire Posts: 81,531 The debate thread is here. The Rat Ring Gallery is here. Since you are both mods, your posts won't go into the moderation queue. And since there isn't a maximum word count, etc., I think that's fine. __________________ It's all good fun until somebody loses an eye.
 11-30-2010, 07:44 PM #1204868  /  #74 TestyCalibrate Someone oughta fix the door dummy     Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: I've mistaken blueberries for blueberries! Posts: 20,320 Oh. Both me and Req. automatically post in TRR without moderator approval. How should we deal with that? ETA: x-post. nm. __________________ Cabin fever.
11-30-2010, 07:49 PM   #1204877  /  #75
daap-umop-bnp
murder by chair

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Quote:
 Originally Posted by TestyCalibrate 48 words motherfuckers. Hmmph.
I knew you could do it.

Btw, which Anselm work were you referring to?
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