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Old 11-30-2010, 06:01 PM   #1204727  /  #51
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Whereas Febble is never right, only sometimes not (yet) wrong.
I rest my case.
Your acquiescence is graciously received.
It wasn't acquiescence.

hth
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:03 PM   #1204729  /  #52
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I rest my case.
Your acquiescence is graciously received.
It wasn't acquiescence.

hth
that's not true,

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Old 11-30-2010, 06:07 PM   #1204733  /  #53
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even the proposition just put forward is a whole fucking set of assumptions and asserted connections between them.

This is the crux: "there is a perfect truth beyond our capacity to attain."

I'll give you as many words and as many rounds as you like to defend that single claim.
Great. I think it is important in context of science more than philosophy but either way. I will write a brief OP either today or tomorrow. (I have real work to try to do this afternoon so I might get bogged down.)
My OP will be shorter than yours. You will have lost before you make your opening argument.

Resolved:
there is a perfect truth beyond our capacity to attain.

Testy to propose, me to reject.

50 words for the OP. Whatever you want for general argument. I just won't read walls of text which do nothing but evade a simple question or challenge, and my single post will consist of little more than that.

Would you like me to go first?

eta: I should like to go first, it will save time.
By all means, save time. I did want to begin with a definition of truth though.
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:10 PM   #1204738  /  #54
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Can't the standard definitions suffice? I mean after all, you are defending a definition in itself, the proposition asserts the existence of a truth according to a certain definition anyway.

Either way, you should be able to elucidate on any specific definitions as you go along, including your usage of truth. I doubt it will affect my OP.

eta: we could end up debating whether the definitions of truth are true or not if you like, but undermining the concept of truth won't help your argument.

Last edited by Requiem; 11-30-2010 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:12 PM   #1204741  /  #55
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and that there is a perfect truth beyond our capacity to attain
I was like uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh...waaaahhhh??!!
I'm not sure why this is such a sticking point actually. We can't count to infinity but we can keep counting for as much time as we have. The modeling corollary is that there is always more data.
It's not the beyond our capacity thing that troubles me. It's the there is a perfect truth, a claim immediately undermined by the phrase that follows.

But we can do this in the peanut gallery thread. Didn't mean to interrupt.
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:41 PM   #1204762  /  #56
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Originally Posted by Requiem for your dreams. View Post
Can't the standard definitions suffice? I mean after all, you are defending a definition in itself, the proposition asserts the existence of a truth according to a certain definition anyway.

Either way, you should be able to elucidate on any specific definitions as you go along, including your usage of truth. I doubt it will affect my OP.

eta: we could end up debating whether the definitions of truth are true or not if you like, but undermining the concept of truth won't help your argument.
That was what I hoped to avoid with a brief definition.

Here we go: Truth is a statement that accurately predicts a perceived outcome, or that accurately reflects the outcome of a process of reason. This is separate from fact, a measured value. What I wanted to avoid was the endless regression of "then every fact is based on truths." Hopefully just the idea of first principles is enough to make the distinction meaningful.

Examples of truths,
"There is truth in old wives tales." -they are expressions of outcomes.
"The sunset is beautiful." -a personal truth, arrived at through the process of assigning value to states of being.
"F=ma" -a mathematical truth, usually the fuzzy edge between fact and truth. For my purposes, given to the truth side.
"Evolution is the process by which species diversify into new species."

Examples of facts:
"John Lennon was assassinated."
"I am 6'2" tall."
"an 8' 2x4 is 8' long."
"Humans normally have 10 fingers."

Is that ok?
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:44 PM   #1204764  /  #57
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I was like uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh...waaaahhhh??!!
I'm not sure why this is such a sticking point actually. We can't count to infinity but we can keep counting for as much time as we have. The modeling corollary is that there is always more data.
It's not the beyond our capacity thing that troubles me. It's the there is a perfect truth, a claim immediately undermined by the phrase that follows.

But we can do this in the peanut gallery thread. Didn't mean to interrupt.
Well, if we're gonna have a debate on whether I have any warrant for my POV, there's no point in pussyfooting around the issue now is there?

I pretty much think Anselm got it right but he was using a religious model so it doesn't translate into contemporary language. That's sometimes called incommensurability.
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:52 PM   #1204773  /  #58
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Originally Posted by TestyCalibrate View Post
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Can't the standard definitions suffice? I mean after all, you are defending a definition in itself, the proposition asserts the existence of a truth according to a certain definition anyway.

Either way, you should be able to elucidate on any specific definitions as you go along, including your usage of truth. I doubt it will affect my OP.

eta: we could end up debating whether the definitions of truth are true or not if you like, but undermining the concept of truth won't help your argument.
That was what I hoped to avoid with a brief definition.

Here we go: Truth is a statement that accurately predicts a perceived outcome, or that accurately reflects the outcome of a process of reason. This is separate from fact, a measured value. What I wanted to avoid was the endless regression of "then every fact is based on truths." Hopefully just the idea of first principles is enough to make the distinction meaningful.

Examples of truths,
"There is truth in old wives tales." -they are expressions of outcomes.
"The sunset is beautiful." -a personal truth, arrived at through the process of assigning value to states of being.
"F=ma" -a mathematical truth, usually the fuzzy edge between fact and truth. For my purposes, given to the truth side.
"Evolution is the process by which species diversify into new species."

Examples of facts:
"John Lennon was assassinated."
"I am 6'2" tall."
"an 8' 2x4 is 8' long."
"Humans normally have 10 fingers."

Is that ok?
Well no really. It's far to labored and complicated.
How about "true is something I can agree with according to the theory and practice of meaning I am currently using"?
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:55 PM   #1204779  /  #59
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Objection! What is trufax then?
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:56 PM   #1204781  /  #60
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Quote:
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Quote:
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Can't the standard definitions suffice? I mean after all, you are defending a definition in itself, the proposition asserts the existence of a truth according to a certain definition anyway.

Either way, you should be able to elucidate on any specific definitions as you go along, including your usage of truth. I doubt it will affect my OP.

eta: we could end up debating whether the definitions of truth are true or not if you like, but undermining the concept of truth won't help your argument.
That was what I hoped to avoid with a brief definition.

Here we go: Truth is a statement that accurately predicts a perceived outcome, or that accurately reflects the outcome of a process of reason. This is separate from fact, a measured value. What I wanted to avoid was the endless regression of "then every fact is based on truths." Hopefully just the idea of first principles is enough to make the distinction meaningful.

Examples of truths,
"There is truth in old wives tales." -they are expressions of outcomes.
"The sunset is beautiful." -a personal truth, arrived at through the process of assigning value to states of being.
"F=ma" -a mathematical truth, usually the fuzzy edge between fact and truth. For my purposes, given to the truth side.
"Evolution is the process by which species diversify into new species."

Examples of facts:
"John Lennon was assassinated."
"I am 6'2" tall."
"an 8' 2x4 is 8' long."
"Humans normally have 10 fingers."

Is that ok?
Well no really. It's far to labored and complicated.
How about "true is something I can agree with according to the theory and practice of meaning I am currently using"?
Lol.

Ok. That works fine. Just as long as you don't use the definition to negate unknown truths. i.e. The Navier-Stokes equations are unsolvable.
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:56 PM   #1204782  /  #61
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Anyway, I digress. Whatever definitions you want to play with is up to you.

I don't think you'll be able to address my OP, but I'll let you go first. 50 words remember, then whatever you like (within reason).

Only stipulations: i win when you fail to make a case, you when when you make a case. I'm happy to claim victory but we can go to a poll if you like.
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:58 PM   #1204787  /  #62
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raven or someone pls make this happen?
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:59 PM   #1204788  /  #63
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so... you want me to go first? in 50 words? Um.. I'll try.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:01 PM   #1204794  /  #64
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Quote:
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Anyway, I digress. Whatever definitions you want to play with is up to you.
I like your definition. I does the same thing I was trying to do only shorter.
Quote:
I don't think you'll be able to address my OP, but I'll let you go first. 50 words remember, then whatever you like (within reason).
Got it. You only chose that because you know I can't write short. Damn it. But I'll do it.

Quote:
Only stipulations: i win when you fail to make a case, you when when you make a case. I'm happy to claim victory but we can go to a poll if you like.
Is that like heads I win tails you lose?
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:05 PM   #1204802  /  #65
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Anyway, I digress. Whatever definitions you want to play with is up to you.
I like your definition. I does the same thing I was trying to do only shorter.
Quote:
I don't think you'll be able to address my OP, but I'll let you go first. 50 words remember, then whatever you like (within reason).
Got it. You only chose that because you know I can't write short. Damn it. But I'll do it.

Quote:
Only stipulations: i win when you fail to make a case, you when when you make a case. I'm happy to claim victory but we can go to a poll if you like.
Is that like heads I win tails you lose?
Sorry, Freudian slip or something, I'm happy with either of us claiming victory.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:08 PM   #1204804  /  #66
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me too.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:09 PM   #1204805  /  #67
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so... you want me to go first?
Not particularly, but you seemed very keen to. You should be able to set out your stall in 50 words. You just have to make the proposition and say how you intend to demonstrate it.

Quote:
in 50 words? Um.. I'll try.
I could do it for you if you like.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:12 PM   #1204810  /  #68
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ps i wanted to keep the posts short because i prefer a more socratic approach. nobody wants to read walls of text, and if there's an ambiguity or error anywhere it makes for horrible unpacking.

if you understand something, you should be able to express it simply. you know who i'm paraphrasing.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:21 PM   #1204828  /  #69
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Ok, here's my OP whenever the RR mod wants to set it up:

Quote:
Perfect truth is simply the knowledge of all that is, was and will be, obviously an impossible goal, though not a contradiction.


To deny the necessity of perfect truth is the same as denying that knowledge can increase. Where is the limit? Infinity. Or do you deny infinity?
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:21 PM   #1204832  /  #70
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48 words motherfuckers. Hmmph.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:27 PM   #1204844  /  #71
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who is going first? Testy? and (I know...48 words is awesome) what is the resolution in one sentence?

1) Topic/resolution: ?
(2) Participants, positions and sequence: Testy (affirmative), Req (negative)?
(3) Scope: None?
(4) Length in rounds: 5-6
(5) Maximum statement length: 1000
(6) Time limit between statements: One week
(7) Start date: Nov 30
(8) Additional criteria: None
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:35 PM   #1204851  /  #72
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who is going first? Testy? and (I know...48 words is awesome) what is the resolution in one sentence?

1) Topic/resolution: there is a perfect truth beyond our capacity to attain.
(2) Participants, positions and sequence: Testy (affirmative), Req (negative)
(3) Scope: None?
(4) Length in rounds: Any. We will wrap it up when it is finished. Probably 3-10 rounds.
(5) Maximum statement length: Any. Testy promises to be as concise as possible
(6) Time limit between statements: One week
(7) Start date: Nov 30
(8) Additional criteria: None
there you go.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:43 PM   #1204866  /  #73
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The debate thread is here.

The Rat Ring Gallery is here.

Since you are both mods, your posts won't go into the moderation queue. And since there isn't a maximum word count, etc., I think that's fine.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:44 PM   #1204868  /  #74
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Oh. Both me and Req. automatically post in TRR without moderator approval. How should we deal with that?

ETA: x-post. nm.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:49 PM   #1204877  /  #75
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48 words motherfuckers. Hmmph.
I knew you could do it.

Btw, which Anselm work were you referring to?
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