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Messages - catislava

How do grazing animals avoid getting killed by poisonous plants in nature? For that matter how do they avoid getting diseases?
Dave, did one of your HMG gurus tell you that animals in nature never eat poisonous plants or get diseases? Or is that just one of your own idiotic beliefs? Because it's really idiotic.
Dave, do you think "animals in nature" avoid getting killed by poisonous plants? Have you never seen a horse that's eaten locoweed?
"Locoweed (also crazyweed and loco) is a common name in North America for any plant that produces swainsonine, a phytotoxin harmful to livestock. Worldwide, swainsonine is produced by a small number of species, most in three genera of the flowering plant family Fabaceae: Oxytropis and Astragalus in North America,[1] and Swainsona in Australia. The term locoweed usually refers only to the North American species of Oxytropis and Astragalus, but this article includes the other species as well. Some references may list Datura stramonium as locoweed.[2]

Locoweed is relatively palatable to livestock, and some individual animals will seek it out."
Here's another one that might give you problems, Dave:

"Poison ivy is a member of the Cashew Family (Anacardiaceae). Most Missourians have probably heard of at least three "poison" members of this family: poison ivy (Toxicodendron radicans), poison oak (Toxicodendron toxicarium) and poison sumac (Toxicodendron vernix). However, only poison ivy is common in Missouri. Poison oak is rare, and poison sumac has never been recorded here.

Poison ivy is the most widespread of the three plants. Found from the East Coast to the West Coast and from southern Canada to Mexico, it has been found in every county in Missouri and in every type of terrestrial habitat, including prairies, swamps, forests, fields, and glades. Poison ivy can grow in full sun and in nearly full shade. You might find it in your flower garden or lawn, or along your driveway. Its most preferred habitats are forest edges and recently disturbed open fields."

From the Missouri Department of Conservation (not, apparently, the Missouri Department of the Darwin Club). The good news is that it won't kill you, but it can make your life miserable for a good several weeks. Your cow or goats could brush against it and transfer the oil to your skin. My husband and I have gotten poison ivy from our cats climbing trees where it's growing.

ETA: You think that your cow automatically knows what poison ivy or white snakeweed is? For God's sake, Dave, people died from drinking milk before the connection was made between what the cows were eating and how it poisoned the milk! Read about "milk sickness": It was a huge problem long before agribusiness took over, when people grazed a cow or two on a lot that hadn't ever seen fertilizer or tractors.

You mentioned poisonous plants.

What do you think I should do about them on my land, given the animals that I have?

Sure hope you don't have any white snakeroot on your property, considering that it's indigenous to Missouri.
"Occurs in rich or rocky woods, bottomland forests, bases and ledges of bluffs, clearings, banks of streams and rivers, pastures, old fields, roadsides, waste places and other open, disturbed areas. The common name comes from an old and incorrect belief that this plant could help treat snakebites. Instead, this plant is toxic to mammals and can kill cattle and horses (where the malady is called "trembles") as well as humans, who can be killed by drinking milk from poisoned cattle."
I'm literally owned by Sears.

(THAT is if I want to eat without going on food stamps.)
Will your boss come after you with dogs and guns, drag you back, and chop off your foot if you try to leave? Will the legal system grant him the right to do so? Can he sell your daughter to others? No? You're not "owned" by Sears. You CHOOSE to work there -- you can leave any time you like, as long as you're willing to live without ready cash. Can't you barter some of your goat's milk for food from your neighbors?
I grew up in a small town in NE Pennsylvania. And by "small", I mean that there were more people in my first class at a state university than there were in my ENTIRE town. The county seat, and largest town, had a population of about 1600. I had classmates whom I had known from kindergarten through 12th grade, and there were only 110 people in my graduating class. And I went to one of the largest high schools in the county!

I only ever met ONE black person until I went off to college; never met a Jew before college; never ate Chinese food, had pizza from a pizza place, or ate any kind of ethnic food -- not even tacos!

When my father was in intensive care at a larger hospital 60 miles away (but still in a rural setting), I remarked to my brothers, who only moved a couple of miles away, how ODD it was to be among a lot of people but only see white people. They thought I was the strange one - and asked me what was weird about only having white people around? When one of my nephews was visiting me, and I took him to McDonald's, an African-American man was standing in front of us in line. At the age of five, this nephew had NEVER seen a black person before, and he asked me, very loudly, if that man was made of chocolate.

It's a very conservative, inbred view of life. I cannot begin to count the number of times I've heard "those people are getting a bunch of free stuff, and I have to work for my [food, phone, housing, what-have-you]." I don't know where they get the idea that immigrants don't pay taxes and get a bunch of "free stuff."
The evolution of modern corn has always fascinated me:

"According to a genetic study by Embrapa, corn cultivation was introduced in South America from Mexico, in two great waves: the first, 5000 years ago, spread through the Andes; the second, about 2000 years ago, through the lowlands of South America." -- from Wikipedia
General Discussion / Re: One space or two?
Wordpress may finally cure me of two spaces. I'm finding it a difficult habit to break.

Testy did you take a typing class in school?
I was taught the two space method in typing class in high school, but abandoned it as soon as I finished the class. One space, every time.
How are Betsy and Polly, Dave? Any kids show up yet? Got any chickens? Kittens? Inquiring minds want to know.
Polly and Betsy are doing great. Their stomachs are very big so I am anticipating having kids soon.  Polly kind of dried off by herself about a month ago but Betsy has continued to produce milk and has actually increased in the last couple of weeks. I'm not really sure if I should dry her off before she gives birth or not.  Yes I have chickens now. A rooster and four hens and I'm getting 1 to 2 eggs per day. I think I should be getting about three per day so I'm tweaking my set up a bit.  Yes my cat had kittens and they are a barrel of fun for me and my daughter.   She had them under a brown tarp on a shelf on the goat pen so with all the other animals we have quite a menagerie out there.  I play with them every day prior to milking.  My rabbits are doing great too, although I have not attempted the mobile Rabbit colony scenario again just yet. I decided to back up and slow down on the development process with my rabbit system.  The programmable "RoboPen" has worked out very well and I think will be a long term thing.
Thanks for the update, Dave. When they kid, will you post pictures? I love baby goats!

But how did your pregnant cat get into the goat pen? And what's going to happen once the kittens get older and more playful?
Mine's normal as well.
How are Betsy and Polly, Dave? Any kids show up yet? Got any chickens? Kittens? Inquiring minds want to know.
I was pretty sure that someone was going trot out "people have been raising pastured pigs for millennia."

Which is true.

I was talking about agriculture in America, particularly the horrible changes that have occurred in the past 70 years. 

One would think that a well educated person  who has been following the discussion for years would be able to understand that.  Without me having to restate it explicitly.

But alas no.
But what you WROTE was: "No one had heard of pastures pigs until Walter Jeffries - or whoever he learned it from. But now that concept is gaining popularity."

You didn't say "no one in America" had heard of pastured pigs, or that no one CURRENTLY raising pigs had heard of pastured pigs. 

You have no way of knowing whether anyone raising pigs in the US for the past 70 or so years had heard of pasturing pigs. You're just making random assumptions that support your ideas.
The cool thing about what I know about Holistic Managed Grazing is that I can generate $200 net per acre from a rotationally grazed sheep operation ("The West was won with sheep and lost with cattle") which covers even the most steep rental fee for former row crop land.  (The cropland directly across from my property can be had for $100 per acre)
But...but, Dave, you're not DOING a "rotationally grazed sheep operation". You have goats, which are browsers, not grazers. You have rabbits. You wanted to try pigs, chickens, and a cow.

You can't extrapolate working with sheep to working with ALL farm animals, and they're not "rotationally grazing" -- they're in a cage, all day long, which moves along a predetermined path you've picked out.

Maybe one can generate $200 net per acre with SHEEP that graze in one pasture or another, but that's not at all the same thing as drinking copious quantities of raw goat milk, living in a rustic shed with a tarp for a roof, shitting in a bucket, and supplementing your diet with fast food.
I dare say that I am more interested in feeding hungry children than ANY of you people are.

But I'm not going to do it by stealing YOUR tax dollars. I'm going to do it with MY money.  And it won't be handouts. It will be help of the "teach a man to fish" variety.

What is a government for David?

Seeious question.

One sentence answer.

Ready. Set. Go.
Great question. One which we should all re-examine I think.  I can't come up with a one sentence answer right now, but I can tell you for sure that government is not supposed to be making direct payments to individuals.  If our founders knew that we were doing this, they would turn over in their graves.

So basically what you are saying is that you have no idea what the function of government is.

Why am I not surprised.


So, David, what is the function of government?
Maintain law and order. Punish evildoers. Provide for roads. Coin money. Provide for common defense.

To name a few.
You clearly forgot "promote the general welfare" of "We the People". What do you think that means, Dave? "General welfare" of the people??
No. What I mean is that I've explained it many times before and it just doesn't sink into your brain for whatever reason. So there's no point in explaining it again.  You are happy with your  quasi-religious orthodoxy and that's that.  Facts and evidence cannot change cherished orthodoxy.
Your 'explanation' will be the usual nonsense of two goats being forced to crop pasture evenly because you think it's good for your pasture. If you were in any way able to step back and think clearly, you'd realise how laughable this is. If you had any compassion, you'd realise how harmful your stupid moving cage is, both physically and psychologically for your goats, and for you because you've trained yourself to ignore suffering and defend your own cruelty.

YOU have NO evidence that what you are doing has more positive results than negative ones. Your pasture would be fine and your goats happier if you let both interact naturally. Has it ever occurred to you that the goats, on their own, might choose to forage out weeds and invasive plants that push out the grasses you want to encourage? No, of course it hasn't - you don't know anything about that.
Again. You are an idiot.

Dead baby rabbits
Dead baby pig
New rabbits escaped
Goats deprived of their freedom to move about.
No measurable change to pasture
Still eating mostly grocery food.

A roaring success there princess.
You left out the two male rabbits that refused to get preggers so Bluffy ate them.

There's been others in the past, Bluffy doesn't have a very good record with animals.
I think he's also lost a cat at some point.
I'm interested in knowing whether Polly and Betsy are pregnant, and what Dave intends to do once they have babies. I visited a family farm last month and their young goats were in a fenced-in area that had children's playground equipment in it. Those goats were running, jumping, and playing all OVER the equipment! What will Dave expect his baby goats to do? Stand around all day in a small cage and eat grass?

Dave, are your goats pregnant?

If so, do you know when they're expected to give birth?

What are your plans for milking the mamas while they also try to nurse their young?
Now, Jim, there's nothing to get so upset about.

All you're being asked to do is nothing more than what elementary teachers ask their students to do when presenting claims in science class:




You've given plenty of claims, and some reasoning, but what's your evidence? You can't demand that everyone ELSE provides evidence for your claims.

Or, conversely, you CAN demand that others produce the evidence you say you have but won't share, but that, obviously, isn't working.
At first, I thought we had a new player on the crazy science theories train, then he jumped off just as things were getting interested, but I see he can't resist trying to force people to respond to his mad craziness.

Stay the fuck off this thread if you aren't going to stick to the subject. 
Come on over here and make me, big boy!
Can you IMAGINE what the Time Cube guy would have been like had he taken his ideas to a discussion board instead of just creating a web site?
Wait, is Jim insulting people for not finding what Jim expects? Or rather, is he insulting people for assuming the mainstream rather than his hypothesis, neither with any experimental support?
None of the above. He just wants (hopes) to show us his brilliant intellect by spamming the board with his self-published writings. And is pissed off that no one here recognizes that brilliance.  Instead, it seems to be irrationality we're seeing.
At first, I thought we had a new player on the crazy science theories train, then he jumped off just as things were getting interested, but I see he can't resist trying to force people to respond to his mad craziness.
I don't know about you but no matter if I am shitting in a bucket or in a gold plated throne  with fairies playing violins while I go  ...  I don't consider any part of the process to be "soul food."   No matter how fancy your receptacle is, you cannot escape the fact that you have to pull your pants down and generate significant odor, and then stick your hand down there and wipe.  It's extremely unglamorous no matter how you slice it.
Sometimes the odor is greatly reduced if you rely primarily on vegetables for your food calories instead of a very high fat source of animal milk. And a bidet will eliminate the need for wiping.
80% of my food calories don't come from meat and milk. I don't drink any milk at all, and I'm rather fond of fresh veggies and fruit. Would your "market research" make me want to come live on your leased land? How would living on a leased property be preferable to owning my own?
Pingu, to Hawkins the High Speed Brain, "economics" means living on the cheap. "Economics" as everyone else means it is a science, and therefore anathema to him.
What I mean by "economics" in this context is that "the economics driving people's housing and food purchasing decisions."

I've mentioned a family that may be the second resident of my first "sustainable subdivision."  In order to attract this family, there has to be economic motivation as well as other motivations.  One economic motivation for the wife will be the ability to obtain 100% grass fed cow's milk for $3 a gallon (vs. $15 a gallon in the city) ... or ... for free if her husband agrees to take over the animal chores 1 day out of 7 per week.  A second motivation will be for her to be able to obtain pure , local organic raw honey for free under a similar arrangement.  Ditto for various kinds of meats and eggs.  Now it so happens that this same woman works as a caregiver for my elderly parents so - if my parents really do move out to this house I'm supposedly going to build - then she will be in this house 4 days a week, helping to take care of them ... meaning she will get a front row seat to see what it means to live in one of my "sustainable houses."  So one key goal for me is to build it in such a way as to get her to like it ... because if she does, then she will be "economically motivated" to have her husband build her one just like it ... because it will be so much less expensive than every other house she's ever lived in.

So these are the sorts of things I'm talking about when I talk about "economics."
And if she doesn't drink a lot of milk? Or use raw honey? What then?
You will get your fruits and vegetables and grains from the same place you get them now - the grocery store.  I don't intend to make those focus items in my sustainable subdivisions at least not initially.  The focus items are going to be milk, meat, and eggs.
Why? Some vegetables are simple to grow. With 2 acres of land per family, why aren't you including some vegetable patches? Or an orchard? Why the focus on goat's milk, eggs, and rabbit meat? Or are you including pigs, cows, and chickens in the "meat" category? If so, who butchers them??