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Messages - Lugubert

1
[...]
ETA, there's that IF again. As well as your opinion of costs. Have you done an actual listing of costs and an overall estimate?
"listing of costs"? Probably not.

He has been asked several times how much a setup would cost.

Afdave's Fourth Law: Unanswerable questions are invisible.
2
The latest from my buddy Sundance ...
Quote
[snip gobbledygook]
Dave, can you give us a meaningful summary of what "your buddy Sundance" is even trying to argue for here? What, specifically, his reasoning is? Not "It's all a Nothingburger", "Muh Russia" and other content-free slogans: Explain the actual ARGUMENT that is supposedly being made there. Thx.

It looks like Dave can't summarize (this or any other playhouse quotes).

I think that somebody once said something about what lacking the ability to summarize something in a few words suggests about understanding. Right, Dave?
3
I guess I'm the exception then. In my experience even the ones that don' t speak English that well never systematically leave out the articles

I often translate manuals etc. that are written in "Japanese English". Even from extremely well-known brands, the article use may be erratic, especially when it's obvious that the text was prepared hurriedly. Had the use/non-use been systematic, the number of ambiguities would be lower, but sometimes you wonder if an article omission is an error or is meant to carry information.
4
Lawsuit Filed Against Chuck C. Johnson, Jim Hoft, Paul Nehlen, Gavin McInnes and Others for Falsely Linking Michigan Men to Charlottesville Attack

Quote
After last year's white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, at which counter-protester Heather Heyer was murdered when one of the racists deliberately drove a car into a crowd, we reported that a slew of right wing sites immediately and recklessly rushed out articles identifying the wrong person as the perpetrator of the attack.

These irresponsible bloggers included our old pal Chuck C. Johnson (who is NOT ME, and is not really my "pal") and Jim Hoft (the fabled Stupidest Man on the Internet). And from those two sites the fake story quickly spread throughout the right wing noise network.

Both of these far right bloggers soon deleted their posts, but of course they know very well that once they put this malicious nonsense out on the Internet, the right wing mob will take it and run with it, and there's nothing anyone can do to stop or debunk it from that point; it becomes an article of faith and takes on a life of its own.

...
And this week, they filed a lawsuit against an entire group of these people, including Chuck C. Johnson, Jim Hoft, Gavin McInnes and Paul Ryan's white nationalist primary challenger Paul Nehlen, seeking damages for defamation, invasion of privacy and intentional infliction of emotional distress.
 

Dave gets competition.
5
Here's the hard cold numbers again...

Row crops - 5.4 million sq miles - 3.456 billion acres
Permanent crops - 0.593 million sq miles - 0.379 billion acres
Permanent Pastures - 12.9 million sq miles - 8.256 billion acres
Woodland - 15.4 million sq miles - 9.856 billion acres
TOTAL - 34.3 million sq miles - 21.9 billion acres

If you take out the forested land that leaves about 12 billion Acres which feeds about 7 billion people. So that's about 1.7 billion acres per person on average. If each person consumes an average of 800,000 food calories per year, then that's about 470,000 food calories per acre on average Worldwide.

These are just actual numbers. No Dave Spin.



Dave, does the number for "Permanent Pastures" include the higher slopes of the Himalayas? I'm not convinced that the people who are herding yaks there will think that your method is useful.
6
Aaarghh

You're triggering my pedantry.

Orang utan

Orang - people

Hutan - forest

Well, Wikipedia adds (also spelled orang-utan, orangutang, or orang-utang), and the orangutang spelling is correct in Swedish.

Some years ago, I read an article where a well travelled person said that he never had heard that name in Malay. Anyway, the first part  of the name makes it easy to remember its colour.
7
Oh wait... Did I say destroying our planet? I forgot that people here think that our planet would be just fine if all land surfaces looked like the Sahara Desert... Because hey! The Sahara Desert is a beautiful ecosystem!

Can you cite a post from a single person who has ever said anything remotely resembling that, Dave?

Because I can't.

Why did you lie about this, Dave?  I realise it was an attempt at humour, but that kind of hyperbole is only ever funny if it bears SOME relation to reality.

What position, or whose position, were you attempting to satirise?

Or have you really misunderstood what people mean by biodiversity quite this badly?
I didn't lie. I perceive this to be your view about the Sahara Desert as best I can determine it from statements you have made.
Where did anyone say that an existing stable ecosystem would work (better, if all, or whatever) were it to displace another system that works well in the previous one's environment? How would you measure the respective biodiversities or any other measurement of success?
8
"I'm skeptical, as I've said, because I think you don't give a rat's arse about what might be "lush" and what might be something that turns out to be poisonous to your animals.  You don't seem to think it matters to know."

Lol

One of our main jobs every day as interns was to run around all over the next paddock each day and put up little warning signs for the cows wherever there were poisonous plants that said "Warning! Do not eat!"

Greg's cows are special... They can read!

And it looks like Greg thinks that it is useful to identify plants... Perhaps he even knows their names.
9
Dave, you seem to be impressed by Mr. Haugen's numbers. He obviously records data. What about impressing us with some actual (not hoped for) data from your operation?
10
What I find really interesting is the numbers Dave doesn't want us to know.

eg: Dave wants all his technological goodies, and suggests that people who make them could work while running the farm. Therefore, the amount of driving is a key point in determining how effective Dave's system is, especially as, in addition to work, there is apparently a reasonable amount of driving around trucking water and presumably other bits and pieces.

So why won't Dave tell us how much driving he does each year. Seems to be a rather important input, and I don't think he's suggested people shouldn't drive under his plan.
Other interesting numbers, that prospective Davinists certainly would like to know, are
  • How much money will be needed
and
  • How much time is required
before a Dave unit is running sustainably.
11
My oldest mentor is Abel, son of Adam, who was a sheep herder.

I wouldn't be surprised if you use Abel's method of breeding spotted and speckled cattle.
You are getting Abel mixed up with Jacob. And I don't know much about that method, but I suspect if I studied it I would find that these guys were a hell of a lot smarter than you are about animal husbandry. And probably a hell of a lot smarter than me too.
I assume that Jacob had learned the method from Abel. Anyway, an early Genetical method?
12
My oldest mentor is Abel, son of Adam, who was a sheep herder.

I wouldn't be surprised if you use Abel's method of breeding spotted and speckled cattle.
13
I don't even remember when I last had a paper jam. Must be better printers as well as buying better paper. There used to be a wire that needed cleaning ever so often (or was that laser printers)? My best/worst memory of printers was when I used a fax machine to copy what was intended to be 40 pages. The output feed roller melted. Nice paper jam ensued.
14
So my food production solution is an absolute no-brainer ... at least to those whose brains are not on Darwinism.

Yeah. No sign of brain activity in your system.
15
Well, if your response is now "whatever", you should be able to turn your attention to other questions. Like:
Oh, and Dave, you still have yet to answer this (since the answer you did give was clearly wrong):
Dave, your analogy, if you think it through well, demonstrates the exact opposite of your point.
Oh?

How's that?
I'll walk you through it.

Why is reading generally necessary? What essential function does it perform?
Dave?

He thinks that reading is a necessary skill for reading can labels and grocery store aisle signs. But in Dave's new world, everybody will make their own food, so there will be neither labelled cans nor grocery stores. No reading skills necessary.
16
But I'm not minimizing  the horrors of human slavery. I am one of the most anti slavery people you will meet.

Echoing Trump on, what was it? feminism?

Quote
I - and Walter - are simply observing the massive amount of energy required to produce food by raping soil. Something like 10 units input for 1 unit output. If we are going to continue to produce food via soil rape, then the energy has to come from somewhere... Either human or fossil fuel.

Again, why do you discard hydroelectric, geothermal, tidal energy, wind or nuclear as alternatives?
17

Quote
As our energy slave of petroleum runs out, we will have to make a choice on whether to re-institute slavery or watch as civilization collapses.
I'm not surprised, Dave, that you like such a binary argument. What about instead enslaving hydroelectric, geothermal, tidal energy, wind or nuclear? We should do that way more, instead of just burning the interesting mix of useful and potentially useful chemicals that crude oil is.
18
I also cringe every time I eat food produced by fossil-fuel slaves ...  pork sausage from Aldi or Corn Flakes and so on. Why do I cringe? Because I am starting to understand the human cost of using 10 units of fossil fuel energy to produce one unit of food energy. Think war in Iraq.
And the list of food consumed by Dave that he hasn't produced himself is expanding.

As this is supposed to be an economy thread, Dave, how much money (and time) will be needed for a person who wants to copy your setup, and how much more money (and time) will be needed before the enterprise will be a no inputs, sustainable operation?
19
For my part, I don't really care if dave accuses me of not being competent at my work. I used to, kinda, but I realized that the scorn of a whiny, grudgy failure with a YUGE chip on their shoulder amounts to nothing but praise.
Seconded; for example being called a liar by Dave is like acquiring a merit badge.
20
No.  You should engage your fucking brain and realize that cows are not designed to eat pure grain diets.

But they are designed to be confined to moving prisons?
21
Quote
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Yesterday at 12:01:09 PM
... truth doesn't care whose lips it comes from.

I should probably rewrite this to better form ... you're not supposed to end sentences with prepositions ...

How about ...

Truth doth not care from whose lips it cometh.
Add Strunk's "The Elements of Style" to the list of nonsense that Dave follows without thinking. This is what you get from the supposed rule:

Quote from: comment at languagelog
     Guy walks into the English building and sees a guy sitting in an office.

    "Where is the English Department at?"
    Second guy (severely): "One cannot end a sentence with a preposition."
    First guy: "Where is the English Department at, asshole."

Fake
Quote from: Churchill
This is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I will not put.

22
Quote
THE head of the US Centres for Disease Control and Prevention resigned overnight -- a day after a report revealed she had bought stock in a tobacco company soon after being nominated to the post last year by President Trump.

Donald Trump's anti-smoking boss Brenda Fitzgerald resigns over tobacco stock investments



Rollin rollin rollin

Yeehah

Wow. You are not actually trying to count that as a head rolling are you? It has absolutely nothing to do with anything we are talking about.

And slightly later
Quote from: HH
Those chips on your shoulder must be getting heavy.

I might be pointing out what's obvious to most participants, but I read the Fenrir quote as directed towards Dave's claim that Dem heads would roll. The closest case of rolling here is one of Trump's people.

As to Pingu's comment, if you find a statement that surprises you and/or is out of character for the author, try looking for satire. Personally, I think this case was obvious.
23
The corners of the triangle are Alicante, Elche and Santa Polo.  The project was called El Triangulo.  They might have dropped that name.  It was about 30 years ago.
(Marks map) Thanks!
24
http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/australian-economy/how-australias-cities-can-move-jobs-to-people-and-fix-our-traffic-nightmare/news-story/c4b66fa5f6b54712e00ebaeda1910730

From a conservative paper too. :D

Yes.

What the article doesn't say is that there is a lot of benefit in having the settlements at the grid crosspoints rather than inside the chess-squares.  Milton Keynes tried to do the chess square thing, and it's horrible.  Well, not very functional anyway.  Feels like there's no there there.

I worked on a project in Spain that tried the other approach - linking existing small settlements into a public transport grid, and building new settlements at the intersections.  With orchards and agriculture in the "chess squares" although they weren't exactly square (although interestingly, sort of squareish, because the existing settlement pattern was Roman).

The area was actually a triangle ("El Triangulo") with two coastal cities and an inland city at the corners. 

It  was an interesting project.  I must go back and see how it's doing.
Tried to Google "el Triangulo". Found no useful Spanish hits. Details, please.
25
I'm not a fan of radical change.  Generally speaking I think we make progress better when we make it incrementally.  Radical solutions often fail to solve problems that traditional solutions solved so well, we forgot they were problems.

So yes, my approach is to nudge things towards the multiple directions in which we want them to change, rather than to adopt some radical solution to one problem only to make others much more intractable and create still more.l
Of course. That's the holistic approach, which often works better than Dave's reductionist suggestion in Reply 5911.