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Messages - RAFH

5352
Dave constantly confuses properties of things with things.

He still doesn't get that the point of this is to show that the SET of "vehicles" is, or is not, a nested hierarchy.

To do that, he needs to find FEATURES of vehicles that define CATEGORIES, into which all the individual items of the set VEHICLES can be validly placed.

He's not doing this.


I HAVE found features. But reality - Nature or Manmade - doesn't fall into perfect, neat categories. This is why biologists will argue until kingdom come over classification.
They're pretty well agreed on the vast majority. Have you taken a look at this yet?

http://www.onezoom.org/life.html/

Feel free to point out any flaws you can find.

Another fun activity would be to start with say, the Virginia tiger moth...

http://www.onezoom.org/life.html/@=390781?vis=spiral#x411,y-119,w1.4879

...and then just start zooming out, and see just how many levels of branching you have to go back through just to reach the "Butterflies & Moths" branch. (Spoiler alert: it's a lot.) And then try and pick your poison between super-duper-hyper-evolution or a huge ark filled with butterflies and moths. (Or, you know, grow a pair and face reality.)
Nah, all Bluffy has to do is ignore it.
5353
No I really don't know

OK. Well, those words labelling each of your circles - some of them they are features of vehicles that appear outside that circle. The one called "cars" for instance - there are things called cars that fit in the off-road section.

You might find this easier if you a) labelled each circle with a FEATURE, rather than the name of one of the items you are trying to classify and b) made a list of the items you are trying to classify, and then made sure that they can all be accommodated in one of your innermost circles.
No, there are no items called "cars" that fit in the "off road" section.  Unless you change the definition of "car" to something abnormal.  My definition of "car" is a motor vehicle that is street legal and licensed and so on.  An off road vehicle would be a four wheeler not licensed for public roads or a dirtbike and so on.

 So I think your objection fails.

 Do you have any other objections?
Dave, it's not about how you arbitrarily decide to define the items you're classifying. It's about classifying them based on properties they objectively have. What objective properties do the vehicles in your "cars" category share that set them apart from all vehicles outside that category? What objective properties do the vehicles in your "off road" category share that set them apart from all vehicles outside that category? Are you sure there are no vehicles that could conceivably fit into both categories? Where would you put, for example, this vehicle...



...and why?
I'd put it in the carport. Because my GF would thank me in ways I can't even imagine.
5354
Quote
My definition of "car" is a motor vehicle that is street legal and licensed and so on.  An off road vehicle would be a four wheeler not licensed for public roads or a dirtbike and so on. - Dave H
Licensing of these categories varies considerable from country to country, state to state, and even among municipalities.

Your 'davinition' fails.
FYP
5355
Well yes, it's also an issue that his classsifications are essentially teleological. What does "luxury" car mean, anyway? A general increase in quality of materials, reliability and performance of all systems, providing of extra accomodations and services etc. It's a general and rather fluid notion of increased value for the owner of the car, essentially.

It's something like classifying all animals as Good/Not good for husbandry, or all humans as Fit/Not fit for astronauts. Useful? Sure, if THAT's what you want to examine. Is it part of a nested hierarchy successfully describing the whole group?
Even a 5-year old can see that it's not. And I'm dead serious. Dave has an even less understanding of the concept than a small child can instinctively have.
Bluffy has less understanding of the concept than a small rock that's been frozen and then smashed to bits with a really big hammer.
5356
Also, You ARE aware that luxury boats are a thing, right?

And you ARE aware of hovercrafts, right?

Or do you have different "definitions" for all those as well?
Of course, if need be.

General Law of Bluffoonery: Whatever Bluffy wants to be true, is and must be true; whatever Bluffy wants to be false, is and must be false.
5357
No I really don't know

OK. Well, those words labelling each of your circles - some of them they are features of vehicles that appear outside that circle. The one called "cars" for instance - there are things called cars that fit in the off-road section.

You might find this easier if you a) labelled each circle with a FEATURE, rather than the name of one of the items you are trying to classify and b) made a list of the items you are trying to classify, and then made sure that they can all be accommodated in one of your innermost circles.
No, there are no items called "cars" that fit in the "off road" section.  Unless you change the definition of "car" to something abnormal.  My definition of "car" is a motor vehicle that is street legal and licensed and so on.  An off road vehicle would be a four wheeler not licensed for public roads or a dirtbike and so on.

 So I think your objection fails.

 Do you have any other objections?
Yes, why do you believe your davinition is relevant and meaningful to any one besides yourself?
ProTip: It's not.
5358
In reference to why his diagrams do not form a nested hierarchy, Dave wrote:

No I really don't know

How is this possible?  Did you even read the posts between your diagram and this response?
He may have Bluffooniconically scanned them, in his usual method, but, no, he did not read them and it wouldn't have mattered if he did. Bluffy has made up his mind (such as it is) and that's that. His world model is what he wants it to be, it is and must be valid; and any objection to such is and must be invalid. General Law of Bluffoonery.
5359
No I really don't know
What about the several fatal problems that have been pointed out already?

E.g. off-road cars.
electric cars
steam powered cars
turbine powered cars
jet powered cars
cars that are neither luxury nor economy
cars that are both on-road and off-road
railroad cars
funicular cars
the band "The Cars"
Formula 1 cars
RC cars
Slot cars
scale model cars
fantasy cars
flying cars
aquatic cars
????


What a bluffoon.

Funniest part is it's all self-imposed. Intentionally. Bluffy is of the opinion that being different and disagreeing with virtually everyone, misinterpreting even those he claims supports his views, being the maverick, is something cool and wonderful, rather than just being different and foolish. He's like the kid who wants to smoke cigarettes and when asked why insists all the other kids are, but just the opposite, he insists on lying on the railroad tracks and when asked why, he explains none of the other kids are doing it.
5360
Didn't meeps go to Stanford?  How come she doesn't write like that?

I went to a real Ivy.  :stuckup:
Stanford wasn't built on ivy, but rather on the real thing: gold.
5361
what is in santa barbara
A gazillion old rich people like the Reagans.
5362
But Obama is white.
Yabbut he's Muslim which is the new black.
5363
Something that's been bothering me for a while. Where do Ground Effect Vehicles like the Caspian Sea Monster go?  Other than in "awesome"?
How about those diesel powered submarine aircraft carriers, the I-400s, the Japanese built during WW2? They're sea creatures but their young are aerial.
5364
They go in the "totally idiotic" category.
Right up Bluffy's alley, on the way to the Palace of the Great Bluffoon.
5365
You people keep insisting that "manmade items don't nest well" and I'm just not seeing that ... please tell me in the diagram below how it's "not nesting well"????




Ok, so where would you fit a Range Rover in that?

(Luxury, off road...)

You really aren't thinking this through at all, are you?

Come to think of it, what about off road trucks FFS?
How about electric cars, which include both luxury cars and mid level cars?
Steam cars?
5366
Harun Yahya's stuff is totally batshit. I remember the "mayfly" lure. Had a fucking great stainless steel hook poking out of its arse. :rofl:
That was a feature, not a bug. It helped them catch the big ones.
Hey, one big fish like that, and that mayfly's progeny are set for several generations.
5367
This does cause me to ask myself... What have been my biggest successes and my biggest failures so far ...

In the area of food production, my dairy goat system has been a huge success and I'm really enjoying it.  My rabbit colony has not been successful so far in the sense of actually producing meat, but I have learned some things and I'm giving myself a pass because this is my first time to ever raise commercial meat rabbits.  I will be adding the rabbits to my mobile goat pen and I will also be adding chickens.  I have a pretty good idea of how they will be housed so that will be one of my next experiments.  I will probably also experiment with a hog and some sheep this coming spring.  Potato production went pretty well this year with my woodchip garden and I plan to expand that next year.

As for my housing experiment, I'm really happy with it although there are some things that I would do differently.
Self-assessments, especially by renowned narcissists, are not very reliable.
They tend to overstate their accomplishments and understate their failures.
Because they are narcissists.

General Law of Bluffoonery: Whatever Bluffy wants to be true, it is and must be true; whatever Bluffy wants to be false, it is and must be false.
5368
So, it looks like descent with modification from Ark-borne kinds is really scaring Dave.
Nope. That's pretty simple. Read Whitcomb and Morris, then read Shapiro.
Provide the quotes and the citations for such.

BTW: Shapiro was dealing with prokarya. And he's gotten a bit doddy.
5369
OK Mike, you're on... Why DO we group certain animals as "mammals"?  And a related question... Why not group animals according to their habitat... Like water, land, air, etc.?

Possibly because many different organisms inhabit the same habitats. Not to mention it's often pretty difficult to identify a habitat when one finds a fossil. Then again, what does one do with otters, which are both aquatic and terrestrial, or frogs, amphibious. Or birds, are birds that do not fly, but live entirely on the ground, not birds? Or birds that build nests underground. How about ducks, gulls, etc, that live both in the water and in the air and on the ground as well.

Just another aspect of your thinking it's all good to have diesels in more than one category.

You are just a bluffoon.
5370
Accomplishments? 

On track for producing about 500,000 "real food" calories produced sustainably with no inputs except for a mineral block and very little labor.

Making plans for at least 1 million calories next year.
Yeah, Bluffy, you've been saying that for over a year now. Got any baby rabbits yet? How about baby goats? Chickens? Trees? Anything?
5371
That's funny. Exactly the same thing happened to me last night too.

Odd. Most odd.
Showing up in two places at once, PROOF POSITIVE of the existence of Jesus.


Or at least his ghost.
5372
Dave, do you realise that your preferred fantasy, namely the whole Fludde/Ark/kinds story, also requires nested hierarchies of critters that have a sequence of transitional forms?
No, no, no, it doesn't! Doesn't, doesn't, doesn't!!!
5373
Ok why?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

What's your explanation?
Subcontracting!  God created life: cells, organelles, metabolism, mitosis, meiosis, etc.  He then contracted out different groups of organisms: Gabriel worked on mammals, Michael worked on birds, etc.  Of course Gabriel subcontracted for Carnivora, Chiroptera, etc.  God liked what Gabriel was doing with mammals, and especially what some of the sub-sub-sub-contractors were doing with apes, so He modified a chimpanzee into Adam.

There you go, nested hierarchy, simple.
 :devil3:
Peez
impossible to get deliverables from multiple subcontractors to arrive on 1 day.  Maybe that's what evolution is, subcontractors delivering right before you have to take them to court.
Reminds me of the old joke about the Engineer that died and upon reaching the Pearly Gates was informed his life had not been exemplary enough and he was to take the elevator down. Upon arriving in Hell, he found it was even worse than the worst reports. Unbearably hot, atmosphere filled with acrid fumes, burning lakes of fire, demons torturing the damned, water polluted, no amenities whatsoever. He noticed even the demons were miserable. So he requested an audience with the Dark Lord himself. That was a real eye opener, because even the Devil's quarters were horrible. So he proposed fixing things. The Devil was dubious, but figured what the Heaven. So the Engineer went to work. Drained the lakes of fire into underground cisterns where they were then used to provide power. That did a lot to clear up the air. Used the power to run the AC system, cooling things down to a nice 72F. The condensate off the AC units was directed into the empty beds of the Lakes of Fire further moderating the temps and making the whole place much nicer. Even managed to import some trout for a bit of fly fishing. Then he worked on the sewer and water systems, and pretty soon he was getting swimming pools and hot tubs built. Along with pretty nice villas on the lake shores. Trees began to grow, fed by light from the Lakes of Fire cisterns and piped around with fiber optics. Pretty soon there were Country Clubs and Club Meds, the Devil even mellowed out. Regular raves and massive parties reigned.

By and by, God heard about all this and called up the Devil asked what was going on. The Devil explained and God, realizing Hell was now nicer than Heaven, demanding the Devil give back the Engineer. "Nothing doing" was the Devil's response. At which point God said he'd sue. The Devil replied, "Good luck with that, where you going to get a lawyer?" and hung up.
5374
True science does not involve things that we WANT to be true ... it involves things that ARE true.
Heh.
General Law of Bluffoonery: Whatever Bluffy The Bluffoon of Bluffoonylvania wants to be true, it is and must be true; whatever Bluffy The Bluffoon of Bluffoonylvnia wants to be false, it is and must be false.

If you disagree with Bluffy's wants, then you must and will be designated (by Bluffy The Bluffoon of Bluffoonylvania, he being the Head of State of Bluffoonylvania) a Reverse Swahili Pig Latin speaking, Octohat wearing, Darwinian poopy-head and you are officially exiled from Bluffoonylvania. As far as Bluffy is concerned, you have been officially "Ignored" and for all intents and purposes, you no longer exist, though Bluffy may, being he's The Bluffoon of Bluffoonyvania, refer to you and anything you post by terms he has davined as derogatory which just goes to show how much you do not understand Science.
5375
You cannot any more drop an automobile diesel engine into a boat as you can drop a whale flipper onto a fish without some modification in both cases.  You guys are seriously brain-damaged.
Modifications? Such as?
People do it all the time Bluffy, particularly in developing countries. And, no, they don't need to modify the engine itself. The May modify the exhaust manifold, to accommodate a heat exchanger, possibly the injector pumps or the oil & fuel filters. But not the engine itself.