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Topic: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways? (Read 257 times) previous topic - next topic

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How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
How and why can people ignore their God's immoral ways?

I find it quite strange that Christian, Muslims and Jews can ignore the immoral ways that their God is shown to have in the Bible, Qur'an and Talmud.

If you have read any of the critical books on God, you will have seen God described with some rather disingenuous terms that, if applied to a man, would see that man executed by any moral government in quick order. The Buddhist saying that if you ever meet God, kill him seems quite fitting. Frankly, I think killing him without making him suffer for a time would be too good for him. If hell were real, that would be a better end for him as mankind would surely need to see that torture to gain real closure for God's crimes against humanity. This aside.

I can appreciate the value for society of local churches, mosques and temples but cannot fathom why lying priests, preachers and imams try to sell their God as a good God, when he is obviously more satanic than Satan. Perhaps scripture speak at least one truth in that the whole world would be deceived by Satan and his lying preachers and imams. Not that I believe in Satan.

As a Gnostic Christian, my focus has been to try to become a Parfait, a perfected moral man, using the methods Jesus taught. It has been a long climb up Jacob's ladder and apotheosis put me up one rung and I have tried to climb higher, but seem to have stalled due to my inability to find arguments that are persuasive enough to loosen Satan's grip on the minds of Christians, Muslims and Jews. Their need of fellowship is stronger than their work on their moral sense and they stay in their religions even though they know that their God is immoral and not worthy of their idol worship. This Gnostic Christian truth is not a flattering epithet for God, which is likely what cause their destruction by Inquisition.

The truth hurts the religious even when given with a loving touch. I am not that good at that but have seen good honest lovers of Christ get verbally abused by theists. They think hate is motivating those who speak against their God even when love is the motivator. Hate is born of love, and the Gnostic hate of God is justified on moral grounds, and the attempted correction of a believers moral sense and their thinking is done out of love. They forget that that is how Jesus was and how that love driven expression of hate with what he saw around him almost got him killed at the hands of the Jews. So the myth says.

The fact that I have had many theists resist entering into moral argument of their God indicates that they know that their God is immoral. I can appreciate that once a person accepts the fellowship that his tribal nature seeks, and he can survive without having better morals, he is loath to jeopardize the comfort zone he has created for himself. The problem is that theists are living in self-deception and for one who seeks or has attained Gnosis, a deeper knowing of himself, self-deception is basically not allowed. That is why I have to bother fighting a fight that is almost un-winnable.

If you have an answer to the question I posed at the onset, please enlighten me as I am quite disappointed to see so many living in self-deception and without Gnosis, and following Gods who are demonstrably more Satan like than God like.

In the terrible days that we will face from environmental degradation that will soon be upon us, a new and moral God will be required and we presently do not have one.

I recognize that our tribal and fellowship needs are quite strong and a part of our basic instincts. Do you have any idea as to how we can break Satan's hold on Christians, Muslims and Jews and change their fellowship and tribal needs to a need for a God with decent moral values?

Regards
DL

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #1
What are ya gonna do, tell God what to do?
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • ToThePoint
  • search & destroy
Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #2
What are ya gonna do, tell God what to do?

Yes, this is the core issue: control.

Can we exert our own cognitive control over the motivational control of a supernatural being?

Or is our perceived control of the social control of our environment, limited by the situational control, the best we can expect?

Because (in the end), regulating the thoughts, emotions & impulses of our ego control depends upon it.

"This is your life and it's ending one minute at a time."

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #3
Talk to the Calvinists, GIA. They have the answer to your question, but you're not gonna like it. Even the Calvinists don't like it, but whaddaya gunna do?

  • Fenrir
Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #4
Sithrak is the answer.
It's what plants crave.

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #5
Talk to the Calvinists, GIA. They have the answer to your question, but you're not gonna like it. Even the Calvinists don't like it, but whaddaya gunna do?

Show the answer as I do not know where you found what you recommend I seek.

Regards
DL

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #6
What are ya gonna do, tell God what to do?

Yes, this is the core issue: control.

Can we exert our own cognitive control over the motivational control of a supernatural being?


The scriptures say yes but theists are ignoring their moral sense for their tribalism.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Regards
DL

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #7
Talk to the Calvinists, GIA. They have the answer to your question, but you're not gonna like it. Even the Calvinists don't like it, but whaddaya gunna do?

Show the answer as I do not know where you found what you recommend I seek.

Regards
DL

I am serious. You should talk to an erudite, theologically educated Calvinist about the meaning of the word 'holy' as applied to God. I'm not really equipped to sufficiently explain. I will say that at its core is the understanding that what is called God is not human, and cannot be understood by humans, and that its morality (as such) is not human nor even describable as morality in human terms. Morals are for humans, not for God.

God as imagined by Calvin's followers is so far removed from the humans it created that humans cannot in any way imagine the real purposes, thoughts, or powers of God, or perceive anything of God unless God intends it. And nothing a human does can in even the slightest regard change what God has, does, and will intend.

See Monergism for an aspect of this perception of God:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monergism

Now, I am an agnostic person with an interest in theology, it is a hobby. So from that position, when I see you rail against various aspects of theism, I see that you are not very well versed in some of the truly esoteric doctrines that underlie (and of which most theists are ignorant, because really clerics do not discuss them much with congregations, or even pay much attention to them themselves, because a great deal of it is quite disturbing when contemplated) the Abrahamic faiths, and perhaps Christianity in particular.

So because I see you thusly, you appear as a little bird battering against a window, thinking it is air because you can't see it. You are angry with the end product, one might even call it the waste product, of theology, because you have failed to understand how truly desolate is the philosophy that lies behind the outward aspects of religious behaviour.

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #8
Talk to the Calvinists, GIA. They have the answer to your question, but you're not gonna like it. Even the Calvinists don't like it, but whaddaya gunna do?

Show the answer as I do not know where you found what you recommend I seek.

Regards
DL

I am serious. You should talk to an erudite, theologically educated Calvinist about the meaning of the word 'holy' as applied to God. I'm not really equipped to sufficiently explain. I will say that at its core is the understanding that what is called God is not human, and cannot be understood by humans, and that its morality (as such) is not human nor even describable as morality in human terms. Morals are for humans, not for God.

God as imagined by Calvin's followers is so far removed from the humans it created that humans cannot in any way imagine the real purposes, thoughts, or powers of God, or perceive anything of God unless God intends it. And nothing a human does can in even the slightest regard change what God has, does, and will intend.

See Monergism for an aspect of this perception of God:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monergism

Now, I am an agnostic person with an interest in theology, it is a hobby. So from that position, when I see you rail against various aspects of theism, I see that you are not very well versed in some of the truly esoteric doctrines that underlie (and of which most theists are ignorant, because really clerics do not discuss them much with congregations, or even pay much attention to them themselves, because a great deal of it is quite disturbing when contemplated) the Abrahamic faiths, and perhaps Christianity in particular.

So because I see you thusly, you appear as a little bird battering against a window, thinking it is air because you can't see it. You are angry with the end product, one might even call it the waste product, of theology, because you have failed to understand how truly desolate is the philosophy that lies behind the outward aspects of religious behaviour.

You have many assumptions of me which are mostly wrong.

As an esoteric ecumenist, my belief system is all about the esoteric. I seldom bother discussing it with theists as they do not have a clue about that. One of my favorite esoteric and allegorical teachers is Bill Donahue. He and I have the same type of temperament which I like. I also think him quite entertaining. I like to compare.

Who is your favorite esoteric personality?

Regards
.DL

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #9
This Bill Donahue?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Donohue

If so, I think he's often a rather horrible person with horrible ideas. He has defended the sexual abuse of children by priests, is a homophobe, regards marriage as solely for producing children (though himself a divorced Catholic), and has other reprehensible views.

I haven't got any favourite esoteric personalities. I have found that it is common for people to select 'gurus' that appeal to them, or that mirror their own opinions in some manner. But having found such a person, they let themselves be bound to whatever issues forth from that person's sayings or writings, and soon enough you have cultish thinking that subverts individual truth seeking and makes the mind lazy.

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #10
This Bill Donahue?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Donohue

If so, I think he's often a rather horrible person with horrible ideas. He has defended the sexual abuse of children by priests, is a homophobe, regards marriage as solely for producing children (though himself a divorced Catholic), and has other reprehensible views.

I haven't got any favourite esoteric personalities. I have found that it is common for people to select 'gurus' that appeal to them, or that mirror their own opinions in some manner. But having found such a person, they let themselves be bound to whatever issues forth from that person's sayings or writings, and soon enough you have cultish thinking that subverts individual truth seeking and makes the mind lazy.

No. This Bill.

Ihad to take the prefix off to show it. Just add it in to get the full address.
 
youtube.com/channel/UCinvwSeMdmuuzyMWrS0tGTg

As to your commentary.
It would be strange indeed to pick a guru that one did not like.

Your vagueness indicates that you do not know much of the esoteric world or you would likely have a guru that you liked, or at least preferred.

Regards
DL



Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #11
Talk to the Calvinists, GIA. They have the answer to your question, but you're not gonna like it. Even the Calvinists don't like it, but whaddaya gunna do?

Show the answer as I do not know where you found what you recommend I seek.

Regards
DL

I am serious. You should talk to an erudite, theologically educated Calvinist about the meaning of the word 'holy' as applied to God.

Guess that rules ksen out. 🤣

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #12
This Bill Donahue?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Donohue

If so, I think he's often a rather horrible person with horrible ideas. He has defended the sexual abuse of children by priests, is a homophobe, regards marriage as solely for producing children (though himself a divorced Catholic), and has other reprehensible views.

I haven't got any favourite esoteric personalities. I have found that it is common for people to select 'gurus' that appeal to them, or that mirror their own opinions in some manner. But having found such a person, they let themselves be bound to whatever issues forth from that person's sayings or writings, and soon enough you have cultish thinking that subverts individual truth seeking and makes the mind lazy.

No. This Bill.

Ihad to take the prefix off to show it. Just add it in to get the full address.
 
youtube.com/channel/UCinvwSeMdmuuzyMWrS0tGTg

As to your commentary.
It would be strange indeed to pick a guru that one did not like.

Your vagueness indicates that you do not know much of the esoteric world or you would likely have a guru that you liked, or at least preferred.

Regards
DL



Lol. Wow. Be careful little bird. Do not get a run at the glass.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #13
No, DL. I truly believe it is a bad idea to follow personalities. I read very widely and have since I learned to read. Most of the people you refer to are men, and ime, most of them have at least some beliefs that collide with mine.

Can you link me to something written? I can't currently watch videos and don't like them much anyway.

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #14
No, DL. I truly believe it is a bad idea to follow personalities. I read very widely and have since I learned to read. Most of the people you refer to are men, and ime, most of them have at least some beliefs that collide with mine.

Can you link me to something written? I can't currently watch videos and don't like them much anyway.

Apologies, I cannot do better than your own use of google.

Bill does have transcripts though. This site does not work well for me but might be ok for your system.

www.hiddenmeanings.com

Regards
DL


  • Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 12:08:59 PM by Greatest Iam

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #15
Sithrak is the answer.
q
Sithrak is the answer.
Absolutely!

If you can't love the god you hate,
try loving the god that hates you.

Well maybe it just doesn't give a shit about you,
but you'll still go to hell.
  • Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 12:33:06 PM by RAFH
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #16
What are ya gonna do, tell God what to do?

Yes, this is the core issue: control.

Can we exert our own cognitive control over the motivational control of a supernatural being?


The scriptures say yes but theists are ignoring their moral sense for their tribalism.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Regards
DL

Why would you accept the word of a god you don't revere?
Are we there yet?

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #17
What are ya gonna do, tell God what to do?

Yes, this is the core issue: control.

Can we exert our own cognitive control over the motivational control of a supernatural being?


The scriptures say yes but theists are ignoring their moral sense for their tribalism.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Regards
DL

Why would you accept the word of a god you don't revere?

Even the vilest God, like Yahweh, will sometimes give good advice.

As an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian, I am charged to be a perpetual seeker after God, so that I might become a Parfait.
I have to cherry pick from all ideologies so as to find the best rules and laws to live by.

As has been said, the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian and we are perpetually redefining what good is.

You have heard that from a Parfait WIP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ptNcSYo7k4
 
Regards
DL
  • Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 06:07:04 AM by Greatest Iam

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #18
Gnostics are worse than filthy muslims. Take my advice, don't trust them alone with children and don't hire them as valet car parkers.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #19
No, DL. I truly believe it is a bad idea to follow personalities. I read very widely and have since I learned to read. Most of the people you refer to are men, and ime, most of them have at least some beliefs that collide with mine.

Can you link me to something written? I can't currently watch videos and don't like them much anyway.

Apologies, I cannot do better than your own use of google.

Bill does have transcripts though. This site does not work well for me but might be ok for your system.

www.hiddenmeanings.com

Regards
DL




I can use the site. It is terribly organised and every third or fourth thing you look at is a beggar's bowl asking for monetary support

What attracts you to this person's views? I haven't looked at a lot of it, but it appears to be a collection of New Age truisms and photos cadged from all over the internet. Much of it is very trite, and some of it sounds distressingly like the material used by Divine Light Mission (afterwards Elan Vital), an exploitive Indian cult that swept North America and Britain in the 70s. What am I missing, that you see?

  • Fenrir
Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #20
Embrace Sithrak, the god who hates you unconditionally.
It's what plants crave.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #21
Sithrak? Is that another name for Crom?

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #22
Gnostics are worse than filthy muslims. Take my advice, don't trust them alone with children and don't hire them as valet car parkers.

Thanks for showing us your ignorance of Gnostic Christianity.

Regards
DL

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #23
No, DL. I truly believe it is a bad idea to follow personalities. I read very widely and have since I learned to read. Most of the people you refer to are men, and ime, most of them have at least some beliefs that collide with mine.

Can you link me to something written? I can't currently watch videos and don't like them much anyway.

Apologies, I cannot do better than your own use of google.

Bill does have transcripts though. This site does not work well for me but might be ok for your system.

www.hiddenmeanings.com

Regards
DL




I can use the site. It is terribly organised and every third or fourth thing you look at is a beggar's bowl asking for monetary support

What attracts you to this person's views? I haven't looked at a lot of it, but it appears to be a collection of New Age truisms and photos cadged from all over the internet. Much of it is very trite, and some of it sounds distressingly like the material used by Divine Light Mission (afterwards Elan Vital), an exploitive Indian cult that swept North America and Britain in the 70s. What am I missing, that you see?

His esoteric views and how he interprets scriptures from that esoteric and allegorical POV.

Not all of them but most of the ones that I have seen him speak about on you tube. A pity you cannot view those.

Regards
DL

  • Fenrir
Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #24
Sithrak? Is that another name for Crom?

looky here

Don't read any other pages tho. It's rood! And crass!
It's what plants crave.

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #25
Gnostics are worse than filthy muslims. Take my advice, don't trust them alone with children and don't hire them as valet car parkers.

Thanks for showing us your ignorance of Gnostic Christianity.

Regards
DL
Oh, I'm not ignorant. Some of my good friends are gnostics.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #26
Oh lol, Oglaf of course. Shouldda remembered.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #27
No, DL. I truly believe it is a bad idea to follow personalities. I read very widely and have since I learned to read. Most of the people you refer to are men, and ime, most of them have at least some beliefs that collide with mine.

Can you link me to something written? I can't currently watch videos and don't like them much anyway.

Apologies, I cannot do better than your own use of google.

Bill does have transcripts though. This site does not work well for me but might be ok for your system.

www.hiddenmeanings.com

Regards
DL




I can use the site. It is terribly organised and every third or fourth thing you look at is a beggar's bowl asking for monetary support

What attracts you to this person's views? I haven't looked at a lot of it, but it appears to be a collection of New Age truisms and photos cadged from all over the internet. Much of it is very trite, and some of it sounds distressingly like the material used by Divine Light Mission (afterwards Elan Vital), an exploitive Indian cult that swept North America and Britain in the 70s. What am I missing, that you see?

His esoteric views and how he interprets scriptures from that esoteric and allegorical POV.

Not all of them but most of the ones that I have seen him speak about on you tube. A pity you cannot view those.

Regards
DL


Okay.

No, DL. I truly believe it is a bad idea to follow personalities. I read very widely and have since I learned to read. Most of the people you refer to are men, and ime, most of them have at least some beliefs that collide with mine.

Can you link me to something written? I can't currently watch videos and don't like them much anyway.

Apologies, I cannot do better than your own use of google.

Bill does have transcripts though. This site does not work well for me but might be ok for your system.

www.hiddenmeanings.com

Regards
DL




I can use the site. It is terribly organised and every third or fourth thing you look at is a beggar's bowl asking for monetary support

What attracts you to this person's views? I haven't looked at a lot of it, but it appears to be a collection of New Age truisms and photos cadged from all over the internet. Much of it is very trite, and some of it sounds distressingly like the material used by Divine Light Mission (afterwards Elan Vital), an exploitive Indian cult that swept North America and Britain in the 70s. What am I missing, that you see?

His esoteric views and how he interprets scriptures from that esoteric and allegorical POV.

Not all of them but most of the ones that I have seen him speak about on you tube. A pity you cannot view those.

Regards
DL


Okay, I've managed to skim several videos. I think his interpretations are no worse than many others. I'd prefer he was a bit more etymologically rigorous and didn't wander off into what I consider forced numerology.

I do understand how his views might appeal to someone who starts out with a view of the Bible as inerrantly historic when the allegory is not blatantly obvious.

But I don't think the Bible is entirely allegorical or entirely about spirituality. There are bits of history, bits of legend, campfire folklore, songs, stories taken from other cultures, tragedy, politics, humour, cultural information, and a lot of very human stories mixed in with the set of spiritual memes that permeate the whole. Very much what one would expect from a cobbled together collection of very old texts.

Consider the story of Absalom, banished from the king's city and anxious to get back there and be in the king's good books again. He can't go there himself, so he pesters his brother, a farmer busy with harvest, to go and petition for him. His brother puts it off until Absalom is so frustrated that he sets his brother's fields on fire. His brother comes to him from his burning crops and asks what he did that for. At which point Absalom repeats his request and his brother heads out to do it.

Now I could do a Donahue on that story and make it all about spirituality, how we put off important spiritual acts in favour of petty earthly concerns and so on.

But I think this is a small story fragment in the midst of a jumbled very old political story that is meant to be humourous, to describe a relationship between brothers. Consider being told this story, and the storyteller acting out Absalom's frustrated pacing, his setting the fires, the exasperation of his brother and his capitulation to his crazy brother Absalom's political ambitions. It would be funny.

Because there have always been storytellers, in every age and every culture. And while stories may be co-opted by priests and preachers, the storytellers' purposes were probably much more directed by their human nature rather than their urge to present unfathomable spiritual messages full of numerical puzzles and word derivations.

Also, Donahue is completely wrong about the derivation of Yeshua; he could have looked it up and discovered its etymological origins in ten minutes and left the Greeks out of it after that.

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Reply #28
my focus has been to try to become a Parfait

First a thin layer granola, then whipped topping, yogurt, sliced strawberries/blueberries.
Repeat layers of granola, whipped topping, yogurt.
Add a little whipped topping on top, then fruit.
For granola I like to use strawberry flavored.

I also like the light and fit yogurt.


Good on camping trips because you can whip up a serving for 4 in 10 minutes and it's delicious.
Good Luck and tell me how it turns out. :)