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Topic: Thread for self righteous men (Read 6207 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #775
Woohoo was an appropriate comment in the context I used it. But you've got to use your brain.

First of all, I have no idea why I am getting involved in this, but here goes anyway:

Dave, I think your woohoo was inappropriate, but I also think it was probably not meant in an overtly evil sense, that some people here, but not all, are accusing you of.

Maybe if you will try to understand their point of view, they will try to understand yours, as I do think there is room for finding some common ground.

A young girl being bought for marriage to a much older man is a combination of slavery, pedophilia and sexual exploitation, all rolled into one despicable bag. When FGM is added into the mix, it is hard to imagine a situation that can be any worse for that young child. It doesn't matter if she appeared to be "happy" to some outside observer as she was probably culturally conditioned since she was a toddler to accept that this would be her fate.

If you were to actually think about that, you should admit your woohoo was out of place, apologize for it and withdraw it, and I am sure everyone here would applaud you for doing so.

Now, I also want to consider your point of view here. You feel that your woohooing was appropriate because you were applauding the old guy's virility in taking on a young bride, and you were not cheering for the evils of child marriage that I just mentioned. OK, in that context, your woohoo was not a terrible thing to do, but it was still uncalled for because you should have given thought to the other undesirable aspects of the situation.

Summing up, I don't think you had any evil intent when you made your remark but by continuing to defend it, you are behaving like an insensitive clod.

Why not just admit you made a faux pas, say "excuse me" and move on? Can you agree that is the right thing to do?




Bl;uffy is not usually capable of "evil intent". He's just too stupid to form that sort of "intent", but just stupid enough to think he might have. The perfect posterboy for DK with militant ignorance.
  • Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 10:06:23 AM by RAFH
Are we there yet?

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #776
Many, maybe most, men are constantly dealing with conflicting signals from the brain and the balls.

Are they, though? This is one of those ideas that loads of people seem to take for granted, that they treat as self-evident. We also used to take for granted that women constantly received irrational impulses from their wombs, and that this explained that they were simply not as suitable for positions of authority and responsibility, so we still use the word hysteria to describe a lack of rational control.

Why is it that when we look for an explanation for standards of male behavior, we are so comfortable saying "Ah well, you know. Men will be men, because Testicles!" as if that explains anything?

It is always tempting to explain the status quo as a sort of biological inevitability. But in this case that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It is not sexual attraction that is the problem. It is the way men feel entitled to express it. My balls are plenty active, but I do not think that they are transmitting the message that it is OK to press my advances on anyone. It is not like I am receiving a complex set of instructions from them, or from wherever my sex-drive comes from.

I get the feeling that what we are doing is a bit like pretending that experiencing a craving for cheeseburgers is just natural and inevitable. Superficially that may seem true enough, while still being too simplistic an explanation to be useful, with the added drawback that it makes cheeseburgers seem like the only possible outcome.

Because strictly speaking, what we crave is fat. We have learned to *associate* cheeseburgers with fat, hence the mere image of a cheeseburger can make us hungry.

But the impulse itself is not towards cheeseburgers, and the existence of this impulse does not make cheeseburgers somehow inevitable. The cheeseburger is a cultural thing, a recipe for something that satisfies an appetite, but it is not the only possible one. It is just that we have been allowed, by ourselves and others, to be lazily unhealthy, and this has resulted in some unfortunate conditioning.

Are we not kind of doing the same thing when we say "Ah well. Men will always receive conflicting messages from their balls and their brains"? Pretending that the conditioning is the same as the impulse, because it makes for a convenient way to explain the status quo?

Reposting because this is the truth that Dave and men like him refuse to acknowledge.

Blaming a person's gonads, be they male or female, for bad or antisocial behaviour, is bullshit. A man can have a strong sex drive, be very very horny, and very turned on by a person he find sexually appealing, but the vast, vast majority of men don't feel the need to immediately objectify, accost, or assault that person.

I have a great deal more respect for men than Dave does. I don't expect men to act on the messages their balls send them; I expect most of them to use judgement and thought and empathy in their interactions, including when it comes to their sex lives. When some men don't, I don't assume all men are like that. I assume those men are scum, or at best ignorant and immature teenagers.

Long ago, I cited a large study of date rape and rape on campuses in the US. Despite the confusion re consent that is much whined about by MRA types and touted by some feminists as a necessary educational effort, that study found that only 6% of all university men committed 80% of all assaults. IOW, most of these guys are serial offenders and there aren't that many of them. Their actions aren't impulsive, they are calculated and predatory.

Male privilege and sexist culture is in many ways a separate issue, but it enables that six % (or whatever that % is when all of society is figured into the equation). We are hearing about lots of powerful men who've used their money and position to act, with impunity, in a sexually predatory manner. We aren't hearing about all the equally powerful rich men who aren't evil assholes and have never acted like this. Some of those men, though, have been part of the culture that made it easy for the Weinsteins and Cosbys.

I have known and been alone with thousands of men in my life, and only a handful acted inappropriately, in spite of my being for most of those years a stereotypically attractive woman. That handful had an outsized impact on me, because it is traumatic to be assaulted, even if you are a big strong young woman who fights back enough to cause that kind of man to retreat quickly. I was lucky.

So Dave, you have a far worse opinion of men than I do. And you seem to think men behaving badly is normal. It isn't.


  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #777
Many, maybe most, men are constantly dealing with conflicting signals from the brain and the balls.

Are they, though? This is one of those ideas that loads of people seem to take for granted, that they treat as self-evident. We also used to take for granted that women constantly received irrational impulses from their wombs, and that this explained that they were simply not as suitable for positions of authority and responsibility, so we still use the word hysteria to describe a lack of rational control.

Why is it that when we look for an explanation for standards of male behavior, we are so comfortable saying "Ah well, you know. Men will be men, because Testicles!" as if that explains anything?

It is always tempting to explain the status quo as a sort of biological inevitability. But in this case that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It is not sexual attraction that is the problem. It is the way men feel entitled to express it. My balls are plenty active, but I do not think that they are transmitting the message that it is OK to press my advances on anyone. It is not like I am receiving a complex set of instructions from them, or from wherever my sex-drive comes from.

I get the feeling that what we are doing is a bit like pretending that experiencing a craving for cheeseburgers is just natural and inevitable. Superficially that may seem true enough, while still being too simplistic an explanation to be useful, with the added drawback that it makes cheeseburgers seem like the only possible outcome.

Because strictly speaking, what we crave is fat. We have learned to *associate* cheeseburgers with fat, hence the mere image of a cheeseburger can make us hungry.

But the impulse itself is not towards cheeseburgers, and the existence of this impulse does not make cheeseburgers somehow inevitable. The cheeseburger is a cultural thing, a recipe for something that satisfies an appetite, but it is not the only possible one. It is just that we have been allowed, by ourselves and others, to be lazily unhealthy, and this has resulted in some unfortunate conditioning.

Are we not kind of doing the same thing when we say "Ah well. Men will always receive conflicting messages from their balls and their brains"? Pretending that the conditioning is the same as the impulse, because it makes for a convenient way to explain the status quo?

Reposting because this is the truth that Dave and men like him refuse to acknowledge.

Blaming a person's gonads, be they male or female, for bad or antisocial behaviour, is bullshit. A man can have a strong sex drive, be very very horny, and very turned on by a person he find sexually appealing, but the vast, vast majority of men don't feel the need to immediately objectify, accost, or assault that person.

I have a great deal more respect for men than Dave does. I don't expect men to act on the messages their balls send them; I expect most of them to use judgement and thought and empathy in their interactions, including when it comes to their sex lives. When some men don't, I don't assume all men are like that. I assume those men are scum, or at best ignorant and immature teenagers.

Long ago, I cited a large study of date rape and rape on campuses in the US. Despite the confusion re consent that is much whined about by MRA types and touted by some feminists as a necessary educational effort, that study found that only 6% of all university men committed 80% of all assaults. IOW, most of these guys are serial offenders and there aren't that many of them. Their actions aren't impulsive, they are calculated and predatory.

Male privilege and sexist culture is in many ways a separate issue, but it enables that six % (or whatever that % is when all of society is figured into the equation). We are hearing about lots of powerful men who've used their money and position to act, with impunity, in a sexually predatory manner. We aren't hearing about all the equally powerful rich men who aren't evil assholes and have never acted like this. Some of those men, though, have been part of the culture that made it easy for the Weinsteins and Cosbys.

I have known and been alone with thousands of men in my life, and only a handful acted inappropriately, in spite of my being for most of those years a stereotypically attractive woman. That handful had an outsized impact on me, because it is traumatic to be assaulted, even if you are a big strong young woman who fights back enough to cause that kind of man to retreat quickly. I was lucky.

So Dave, you have a far worse opinion of men than I do. And you seem to think men behaving badly is normal. It isn't.


Bluffy thinks he's normal, and Missouri is normal.
Are we there yet?

  • Faid
Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #778
Woohoo was an appropriate comment in the context I used it. But you've got to use your brain.
you really should learn to read my mind!

After your "woo hoo" comment, I'm not sure I want to.
Oh come on.  Cut the moralistic crap.

It's not much different from YOUR mind in this respect ... which naturally thinks sexual thoughts upon seeing a shapely woman displaying her curves (whether she's 15 or 50) ... all that matters is puberty ... when the curves start to develop, men notice.  Period.  End of story. If you deny that you have these thoughts, then you are lying (or you are gay).  It's a quite natural physiological response in most men ... much as male dog responds to a female dog in heat.  And it forms the basis of the "sex sells" industry in the marketing world.  Come on, man.  Be real.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Photon
  • I interfere with myself
Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #779
Maybe Dave watched Mad Men, and is holding it up as some kind of documentary of modern day business practice?

Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #780
Alfonso, Dave has already explained that *in this culture*, girls that age are probably not yet ready to be woo-hooed.

In other cultures they may be fair game. It would help if you could get some woman to approve of the impending woohoo first though.
Personally, I would be very careful about woo hooing anything about a woman's physical appearance to a her face in any culture.  She may be the type that enjoys that sort of thing, but she may not be.

Alfonso, Dave has already explained that *in this culture*, girls that age are probably not yet ready to be woo-hooed.

In other cultures they may be fair game. It would help if you could get some woman to approve of the impending woohoo first though.
Personally, I would be very careful about woo hooing anything about a woman's physical appearance to a her face in any culture.  She may be the type that enjoys that sort of thing, but she may not be.

Well Dave, this particular 12 year seems to enjoy it as she smiled at me after I 'woo-hoo'd'.  I asked a nice white lady next to me if the 12 year old seemed happy and she said that she did (so the happiness of the 12 year old is without doubt).
That was when the father punched me.  Why, I do not know, because as you said, this is normal manly behaviour.

Now, if I could somehow get her into slavery, at least I'd have the biblical god on my side.

Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #781

Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #782

Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #783

Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #784
"displaying her wares"

They aren't wares Dave. 


To many women, they are. And they know how to use them to manipulate and control men.

  • Pingu
Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #785
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #786
"displaying her wares"

They aren't wares Dave. 


To many women, they are. And they know how to use them to manipulate and control men.

Women?  I thought you were talking any age like you said earlier?

Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #787
No Borealis I don't have a low opinion of men. I have a realistic view of men because I am one. And once in awhile I run across women who also have a realistic view of men. I had a business partner one time who had a wife like this. She understood that men are more visually oriented than women and she made sure to meet that need for him in some pretty creative ways. You have misjudged me and if you are like most women, you have misjudged all men. There are very few women on the face of the Earth who really understand men properly and on the flip side there are very few men who truly understand women. This might explain why a pastor friend recently confided in me that he believe that half of all marriages split up and of the half that stay together only half of those are truly happy.

Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #788
Also let me say that it is one thing to look. But it is quite another thing to act. Especially if you have no indication that those actions are desired. I would be the first to join any of you in harshly condemning any man or woman that pushes for something that's not desired or in any way uses their authority to get sexual favors.

Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #789
No Borealis I don't have a low opinion of men. I have a realistic view of men because I am one. And once in awhile I run across women who also have a realistic view of men. I had a business partner one time who had a wife like this. She understood that men are more visually oriented than women and she made sure to meet that need for him in some pretty creative ways. You have misjudged me and if you are like most women, you have misjudged all men. There are very few women on the face of the Earth who really understand men properly and on the flip side there are very few men who truly understand women. This might explain why a pastor friend recently confided in me that he believe that half of all marriages split up and of the half that stay together only half of those are truly happy.

No Dave.  What you should be having is a low opinion of yourself.

  • Pingu
Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #790
No Borealis I don't have a low opinion of men. I have a realistic view of men because I am one. And once in awhile I run across women who also have a realistic view of men. I had a business partner one time who had a wife like this. She understood that men are more visually oriented than women and she made sure to meet that need for him in some pretty creative ways. You have misjudged me and if you are like most women, you have misjudged all men. There are very few women on the face of the Earth who really understand men properly and on the flip side there are very few men who truly understand women. This might explain why a pastor friend recently confided in me that he believe that half of all marriages split up and of the half that stay together only half of those are truly happy.

What a bitter person you are, Dave. 
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #791
Here's a quick tip for you, Dave, if you have any desire left to actually believe and say things that are true: From now on, when you find yourself thinking about typing the word "men," replace it with "Dave Hawkins." You will immediately become closer to speaking truth if you do that.

Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #792
Bitter?

That's an odd comment.

Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #793
to be fair every Nazi I've met has been a bitter person

Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #794
"The painful truth is that really great marriages exist, but they are rare."

https://qz.com/254477/its-time-to-accept-this-fact-a-really-great-marriage-is-rare/

I don't think I'm being bitter... I certainly don't feel bitter... I think I'm just being a realist.

Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #795
to be fair every Nazi I've met has been a bitter person
YOU  Valor ... are one person i WOULD charactrrize as "bitter."  I've not seen the likes of the Venom you spew coming from any other person here at TR.

So maybe that makes you a Nazi?

  • Pingu
Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #796
Bitter?

That's an odd comment.

Not odd in response to this post:

No Borealis I don't have a low opinion of men. I have a realistic view of men because I am one. And once in awhile I run across women who also have a realistic view of men. I had a business partner one time who had a wife like this. She understood that men are more visually oriented than women and she made sure to meet that need for him in some pretty creative ways. You have misjudged me and if you are like most women, you have misjudged all men. There are very few women on the face of the Earth who really understand men properly and on the flip side there are very few men who truly understand women. This might explain why a pastor friend recently confided in me that he believe that half of all marriages split up and of the half that stay together only half of those are truly happy.

That kind of extrapolation from your own negative experiences to the entirety of men and the entirety of women seems like  textbook case of bitterness to me.

#notallmen #notallwomen
I have a Darwin-debased mind.


Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #798
I'm not extrapolating. Look at the researchers who research this stuff.

Re: Thread for self righteous men
Reply #799
to be fair every Nazi I've met has been a bitter person
YOU  Valor ... are one person i WOULD charactrrize as "bitter."  I've not seen the likes of the Venom you spew coming from any other person here at TR.

So maybe that makes you a Nazi?

"Every cat is an animal, therefore every animal is a cat."
- Dave Hawkins