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Topic: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers (Read 276 times) previous topic - next topic

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Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
This is a dense paper with some massive implications:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25167?sf177120987=1

Basically cell cycle arrest (which is what most chemo attempts to do) can also trigger cancer cells to acquire a stem-like identity with dramatically increased proliferation rates if they manage to exit cell cycle arrest. This is nutso stuff.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #1
Depressing stuff is what that is.

Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #2
Well, yes and no. The issue is that current chemo regimens are perhaps part of the problem when it comes to aggressive recurrent cancers. There may be ways of either modifying current chemo approaches or combining them with next-gen antibody therapies to get around this problem. But now at least we know that what we've been doing isn't necessarily best practice.

Which s good to know, though sad.

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #3
this paper is terrible news regardless of whether the conclusion holds up.  if it's right, we've been doing chemo wrong and killing people.  if it's wrong, every anti-science idiot will believe it anyway and refuse chemo, which under this assumption would still be a life-saving treatment.

Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #4
The issue isn't really chemo alone. Chemo has saved many, many lives and in combination with aggressive treatments (e.g. surgery, radiation, etc) is extremely effective, particularly with early-stage cancers. If anything, this suggests that recent efforts to reduce the duration of chemo and reduce the use of aggressive surgery and/or radiation to kill tumors is misguided and will cause more trouble than it's worth.

The big problem here is really in dispersed cancers (e.g. leukemia or lymphoma) that cannot be easily treated with radiation therapy or surgery. Unfortunately, this seems to be the kind of cancer where this is readily observed.

As far as anti-science idiots, who cares. This isn't like anti-vax where they're harming herd immunity. Refusing cancer treatment only harms their own health.

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #5
it still bothers me.  stupidity shouldn't be a death sentence.

Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #6
It's not stupidity. it is betting that you know more than your doctor. I'm fine about letting people bet that they're smarter than their doctor. Sometimes they actually are. Sometimes they're not. That's how it goes.

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #7
it still bothers me.  stupidity shouldn't be a death sentence.
And yet it so often is
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #8
Chemo is very dangerous--that's news??

It's just it's the only game in town against a tumor that has spread.  If a tumor bounces back stronger than before the patient is still better off than if the cancer hadn't been knocked down in the first place.

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #9
It's just it's the only game in town against a tumor that has spread. 
No.that isn't true

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #10
Chemo is very dangerous--that's news??

Chemo is traditionally seen as being difficult on the body because chemo drugs are a range of cytotoxins that affect mitotic tissue. In addition to killing cancer cells, this means you're doing substantial damage to stem cell reservoirs throughout the body that are necessary for regenerating immune cells as well as tissue with a generally high rate of turnover (e.g. gut lining, skin, nail bases, hair follicles, etc). As a result, you end up with digestive problems, suppressed immune system, and diminished healing ability, all which contribute to the known risks of chemo.

This paper is showing that chemo is actually directly causing some subset of cancer cells to upregulate processes that drive metastasis as well as increased proliferation. This is not because the chemotherapy is acting as a selective agent on the population of cancer cells in the body, but because the chemotherapy is directly activating cell processes which are associated with acquisition of stem-cell-like characteristics in those cancer cells, which drives both proliferative activity as well as invasiveness. In other words, the chemo makes the cancer itself change to become more dangerous. That is different from the known risks of chemotherapy.

Quote
It's just it's the only game in town against a tumor that has spread.  If a tumor bounces back stronger than before the patient is still better off than if the cancer hadn't been knocked down in the first place.

If the cancer is metastasizing, there are unfortunately not a lot of good options in general besides taking a bunch of tissue and then hitting the body with a ton of chemicals to try to kill it. However, for earlier-stage cancers, there are a lot of options that do not necessarily involve chemotherapy, and there are a range of possible chemotherapy cocktails and treatment regimens. So recurrence as a concern can be factored in when designing chemo protocols and mixing chemo with other drugs.

Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #11
It's just it's the only game in town against a tumor that has spread. 
No.that isn't true

Ok, what other game is there?

Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #12
pong

Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #13
mariocart

Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #14
overwatch

  • fredbear
  • Militantly Confused
Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #15
The issue isn't really chemo alone. Chemo has saved many, many lives and in combination with aggressive treatments (e.g. surgery, radiation, etc) is extremely effective, particularly with early-stage cancers. If anything, this suggests that recent efforts to reduce the duration of chemo and reduce the use of aggressive surgery and/or radiation to kill tumors is misguided and will cause more trouble than it's worth.

The big problem here is really in dispersed cancers (e.g. leukemia or lymphoma) that cannot be easily treated with radiation therapy or surgery. Unfortunately, this seems to be the kind of cancer where this is readily observed.

As far as anti-science idiots, who cares. This isn't like anti-vax where they're harming herd immunity. Refusing cancer treatment only harms their own health.
I had a fairly advanced case of non-hodgkins. Chemo cured me in rather dramatic fashion, with relatively few lingering side effects.

Anecdotes are shit, though, so ...
"...without considering any evidence at all - that my views are more likely - on average - to be correct.  Because the mainstream is almost always wrong" - Dave Hawkins

  • MSG
Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #16
As shit anecdotes go, that's a good one
braying among the ruins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #17
I had a fairly advanced case of non-hodgkins. Chemo cured me in rather dramatic fashion, with relatively few lingering side effects.

Anecdotes are shit, though, so ...
If you had adhered to a Price-like diet you wouldn't have had that cancer in the first place.


This post dedicated to the memory of Nine Wands
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: Chemotherapy can induce aggressive recurrence in some cancers
Reply #18