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Topic: Oldest Human Remains (Read 19936 times) previous topic - next topic

Dean W (+ 2 Hidden) and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4500
I found this in the supporting material.  Note the much higher pairwise distances among Africans, compared to those of the other continents.  We've seen this observation discussed in other papers about OoA.  It takes time to accumulate differences as I recall.

Quote
Natural selection shaped regional mtDNA variation in humans
Supporting Information


Fig. 4.
Population expansion analysis. Analysis performed by DNASP computer software. (A) African sequences. (B) European sequences. (C) Asian-Native Americans haplogroups A,B,C,D,G,X,Y, and Z. (D) Asian-Native Americans haplogroups A,C,D,G,X,Y, and Z.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4501
As I said, I only want to spend a certain amount on this but here is the following paragraph:
Quote
By contrast, the non-African macrohaplogroup M and N mtDNAs (n = 72) showed a highly significant deviation from neutrality (Tajima's D = −2.43, P < 0.01; Fu and Li D* = −5.09, P < 0.02). This was also true for macrohaplogroup M mtDNAs (Tajima's D = −2.01, P < 0.05) and Fu and Li D* = −3.35 (P < 0.02) and macrohaplogroup N mtDNAs (Tajima's D = −2.54 (P < 0.001) and Fu and Li D* = −4.38 (P < 0.02) when analyzed separately as well. Furthermore, analysis of the pairwise sequence differences of the macrohaplogroup M and N mtDNAs gave a bell-shaped frequency distribution. These results are consistent with population expansions out of Africa having distorted the frequency distribution of mtDNA variation (6, 23).

Yes, but that's what we've been telling you all along.
But it looks like you've finally gotten onboard with OoA.
Congratulations.
Are we there yet?

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4502
As I said, I only want to spend a certain amount on this but here is the following paragraph:
Quote
By contrast, the non-African macrohaplogroup M and N mtDNAs (n = 72) showed a highly significant deviation from neutrality (Tajima's D = −2.43, P < 0.01; Fu and Li D* = −5.09, P < 0.02). This was also true for macrohaplogroup M mtDNAs (Tajima's D = −2.01, P < 0.05) and Fu and Li D* = −3.35 (P < 0.02) and macrohaplogroup N mtDNAs (Tajima's D = −2.54 (P < 0.001) and Fu and Li D* = −4.38 (P < 0.02) when analyzed separately as well. Furthermore, analysis of the pairwise sequence differences of the macrohaplogroup M and N mtDNAs gave a bell-shaped frequency distribution. These results are consistent with population expansions out of Africa having distorted the frequency distribution of mtDNA variation (6, 23).

The mtDNA of M and N seem to be significantly different than the African L haplogroups.
There is something odd going on even if one accepted the Out of Africa theory.
As the researchers said:
"We are currently unable to offer well-founded explanations for these findings"
This evidence seems to be such that the mtDNA is consistent with L3 as the base. We would expect the number of mutations to be different between the one branch of L3 (to M and N) compared to the other branch going into Africa.
So it seems that mtDNA is subject to selection. And one selection factor is climate.
The difference between Africa and outside of Africa.
We would expect the number of mutations to be different between the one branch of L3 (to M and N) compared to the other branch going into Africa. And that seems to be what we see.
This compares to expecting the number of mutations to be roughly the same which people were promoting earlier.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4503
As I said, I only want to spend a certain amount on this but here is the following paragraph:
Quote
By contrast, the non-African macrohaplogroup M and N mtDNAs (n = 72) showed a highly significant deviation from neutrality (Tajima's D = −2.43, P < 0.01; Fu and Li D* = −5.09, P < 0.02). This was also true for macrohaplogroup M mtDNAs (Tajima's D = −2.01, P < 0.05) and Fu and Li D* = −3.35 (P < 0.02) and macrohaplogroup N mtDNAs (Tajima's D = −2.54 (P < 0.001) and Fu and Li D* = −4.38 (P < 0.02) when analyzed separately as well. Furthermore, analysis of the pairwise sequence differences of the macrohaplogroup M and N mtDNAs gave a bell-shaped frequency distribution. These results are consistent with population expansions out of Africa having distorted the frequency distribution of mtDNA variation (6, 23).

The mtDNA of M and N seem to be significantly different than the African L haplogroups.
Which indicates to anybody with half a brain and some knowledge of the subject (as in relevant education, training and experience) that M and N are not siblings to the African haplogroups that descended from L. Cousins, maybe like 2nd cousins. But certainly not the ancestors of the African haplogroups.

It's good that you are finally seeing the light. Perhaps there's hope for you yet.
Are we there yet?

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4504
Interesting that socrates has no citation for any of his speculation.

Guess he really can't help himself out of that "yes, but" stage.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4505
As I said, I only want to spend a certain amount on this but here is the following paragraph:
Quote
By contrast, the non-African macrohaplogroup M and N mtDNAs (n = 72) showed a highly significant deviation from neutrality (Tajima's D = −2.43, P < 0.01; Fu and Li D* = −5.09, P < 0.02). This was also true for macrohaplogroup M mtDNAs (Tajima's D = −2.01, P < 0.05) and Fu and Li D* = −3.35 (P < 0.02) and macrohaplogroup N mtDNAs (Tajima's D = −2.54 (P < 0.001) and Fu and Li D* = −4.38 (P < 0.02) when analyzed separately as well. Furthermore, analysis of the pairwise sequence differences of the macrohaplogroup M and N mtDNAs gave a bell-shaped frequency distribution. These results are consistent with population expansions out of Africa having distorted the frequency distribution of mtDNA variation (6, 23).

The mtDNA of M and N seem to be significantly different than the African L haplogroups.
There is something odd going on even if one accepted the Out of Africa theory.
As the researchers said:
"We are currently unable to offer well-founded explanations for these findings"
This evidence seems to be such that the mtDNA is consistent with L3 as the base. We would expect the number of mutations to be different between the one branch of L3 (to M and N) compared to the other branch going into Africa.
No, it is not consistent with your insanity. Not in the least. If M and N and the African haplogroups were siblings, they would be very close. They aren't. That's what the paper you quoted said, that they are not close at all.

You lose again, sucky.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4506
As I said, I only want to spend a certain amount on this but here is the following paragraph:
Quote
By contrast, the non-African macrohaplogroup M and N mtDNAs (n = 72) showed a highly significant deviation from neutrality (Tajima's D = −2.43, P < 0.01; Fu and Li D* = −5.09, P < 0.02). This was also true for macrohaplogroup M mtDNAs (Tajima's D = −2.01, P < 0.05) and Fu and Li D* = −3.35 (P < 0.02) and macrohaplogroup N mtDNAs (Tajima's D = −2.54 (P < 0.001) and Fu and Li D* = −4.38 (P < 0.02) when analyzed separately as well. Furthermore, analysis of the pairwise sequence differences of the macrohaplogroup M and N mtDNAs gave a bell-shaped frequency distribution. These results are consistent with population expansions out of Africa having distorted the frequency distribution of mtDNA variation (6, 23).

The mtDNA of M and N seem to be significantly different than the African L haplogroups.
There is something odd going on even if one accepted the Out of Africa theory.
As the researchers said:
"We are currently unable to offer well-founded explanations for these findings"
No, they didn't. That's from a different article by different authors. Are you confused or lying?
He's got his lies mixed up.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4507
As I said, I only want to spend a certain amount on this but here is the following paragraph:
Quote
By contrast, the non-African macrohaplogroup M and N mtDNAs (n = 72) showed a highly significant deviation from neutrality (Tajima's D = −2.43, P < 0.01; Fu and Li D* = −5.09, P < 0.02). This was also true for macrohaplogroup M mtDNAs (Tajima's D = −2.01, P < 0.05) and Fu and Li D* = −3.35 (P < 0.02) and macrohaplogroup N mtDNAs (Tajima's D = −2.54 (P < 0.001) and Fu and Li D* = −4.38 (P < 0.02) when analyzed separately as well. Furthermore, analysis of the pairwise sequence differences of the macrohaplogroup M and N mtDNAs gave a bell-shaped frequency distribution. These results are consistent with population expansions out of Africa having distorted the frequency distribution of mtDNA variation (6, 23).

The mtDNA of M and N seem to be significantly different than the African L haplogroups.
There is something odd going on even if one accepted the Out of Africa theory.
As the researchers said:
"We are currently unable to offer well-founded explanations for these findings"
This evidence seems to be such that the mtDNA is consistent with L3 as the base. We would expect the number of mutations to be different between the one branch of L3 (to M and N) compared to the other branch going into Africa.
So it seems that mtDNA is subject to selection. And one selection factor is climate.
The difference between Africa and outside of Africa.
Hey, sucky, are you aware that Africa is a rather large continent (in fact, the second largest) with a lot of climactic zones? Everything from massive deserts (one in each of the North and South desert latitudes (the only continent to feature such) as well as alpine zones, tropical rain forest, temperate forests, high plateau, savanna, steppe, etc. All of which can be found outside of Africa.

What a total twit. You couldn't argue your way out of a single layer of wet tissue. Not even with a chainsaw or two.
Are we there yet?

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4508
Done much scienting today Doug?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4509
As I said, I only want to spend a certain amount on this but here is the following paragraph:
Quote
By contrast, the non-African macrohaplogroup M and N mtDNAs (n = 72) showed a highly significant deviation from neutrality (Tajima's D = −2.43, P < 0.01; Fu and Li D* = −5.09, P < 0.02). This was also true for macrohaplogroup M mtDNAs (Tajima's D = −2.01, P < 0.05) and Fu and Li D* = −3.35 (P < 0.02) and macrohaplogroup N mtDNAs (Tajima's D = −2.54 (P < 0.001) and Fu and Li D* = −4.38 (P < 0.02) when analyzed separately as well. Furthermore, analysis of the pairwise sequence differences of the macrohaplogroup M and N mtDNAs gave a bell-shaped frequency distribution. These results are consistent with population expansions out of Africa having distorted the frequency distribution of mtDNA variation (6, 23).

The mtDNA of M and N seem to be significantly different than the African L haplogroups.
There is something odd going on even if one accepted the Out of Africa theory.
As the researchers said:
"We are currently unable to offer well-founded explanations for these findings"
This evidence seems to be such that the mtDNA is consistent with L3 as the base. We would expect the number of mutations to be different between the one branch of L3 (to M and N) compared to the other branch going into Africa.
So it seems that mtDNA is subject to selection. And one selection factor is climate.
The difference between Africa and outside of Africa.
We would expect the number of mutations to be different between the one branch of L3 (to M and N) compared to the other branch going into Africa. And that seems to be what we see.
What, there are no high plateaus in Africa, no alpine zones, no temperate zones? Or are you arguing that tropical rainforest and desert (where it does get quite cold at times) do not exist outside of Africa?

Not only are you entirely ignorant of nearly all of biology but apparently geography and climatology as well.

Maybe it's true the only thing you know anything about is cleaning toilets.
Are we there yet?

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4510
As I said, I only want to spend a certain amount on this but here is the following paragraph:
Quote
By contrast, the non-African macrohaplogroup M and N mtDNAs (n = 72) showed a highly significant deviation from neutrality (Tajima's D = −2.43, P < 0.01; Fu and Li D* = −5.09, P < 0.02). This was also true for macrohaplogroup M mtDNAs (Tajima's D = −2.01, P < 0.05) and Fu and Li D* = −3.35 (P < 0.02) and macrohaplogroup N mtDNAs (Tajima's D = −2.54 (P < 0.001) and Fu and Li D* = −4.38 (P < 0.02) when analyzed separately as well. Furthermore, analysis of the pairwise sequence differences of the macrohaplogroup M and N mtDNAs gave a bell-shaped frequency distribution. These results are consistent with population expansions out of Africa having distorted the frequency distribution of mtDNA variation (6, 23).

The mtDNA of M and N seem to be significantly different than the African L haplogroups.
There is something odd going on even if one accepted the Out of Africa theory.
As the researchers said:
"We are currently unable to offer well-founded explanations for these findings"
This evidence seems to be such that the mtDNA is consistent with L3 as the base. We would expect the number of mutations to be different between the one branch of L3 (to M and N) compared to the other branch going into Africa.
So it seems that mtDNA is subject to selection. And one selection factor is climate.
The difference between Africa and outside of Africa.
We would expect the number of mutations to be different between the one branch of L3 (to M and N) compared to the other branch going into Africa. And that seems to be what we see.
This compares to expecting the number of mutations to be roughly the same which people were promoting earlier.
Do people remember doing that? And making a very big deal about it.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4511
We would expect the number of mutations to be different between the one branch of L3 (to M and N) compared to the other branch going into Africa. And that seems to be what we see.
This compares to expecting the number of mutations to be roughly the same which people were promoting earlier.
The climatic selection on M and N is not nearly strong enough to account for the huge number of mutations your hypothesis needs to go from L3 to L0.

I have a question for those more knowledgeable (not you, Socrates) If the selection on M and N could be responsible for the differences in the number of mutations between L3 and M and N on one hand and L3 and the rest of the L haplogroups on the other in Socrates' scenario, that selection would have to reduce variation to account for how much closer L3 is to M and N. But from my reading of the paper, the opposite happened, i.e., variation increased in the northbound haplogroups, not decreased. Is that accurate?

(ETA: I apologize if this is unclear or poorly worded. It's difficult to make sense when working in Socrates' scenario.)
  • Last Edit: Today at 04:38:15 PM by Untheist