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  • She did look at it and confirmed that I basically fucked everything to the point of no return.

Topic: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War? (Read 7436 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1325
By the way... I have taken everyone off of ignore now. I decided that even the most abominable Liars have useful things to say once in awhile. Those of you that were confined to the dungeon... Welcome back to Freedom!

  • fredbear
  • Militantly Confused
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1326
"The fact remains: he said there were "very fine people" on "both sides".  One of those sides had people marching with torches chanting Nazi slogans."

Apparently not is Trump's mind.  Note his actual words again ...
Quote
TRUMP: Excuse me, they didn't put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group - excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down, of to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.
Now it could be that these "fine people" DID march with the Nazis ... I don't know ... but I find that hard to believe.  YOU certainly have not convinced me of that with anything factual.
What the fuck was he trying to say , then, by "very fine people on both sides"?

I know what it means to me, and to most people. It means that it's ok to stand or march with Nazis and white supremacists if you believe some of the things that the Nazis and white supremacists believe (and that totally doesn't make you racist in any way wink wink).
  • Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 08:06:15 AM by fredbear
"...without considering any evidence at all - that my views are more likely - on average - to be correct.  Because the mainstream is almost always wrong" - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1327
:facepalm:
WHO ARE these "fine people", dave?


inorite?

Hawkins seems to operating under the theory that it is a fact that many "very fine people" were somewhere in Charlottesville in support of the same causes as the "Unite the Right!" event organizers, and the question that remains to be settled is: where were they, physically, at the moment those Nazis, Klanners and allied white supremacists were marching and chanting Nazi slogans.

::)
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1328
Hold on.

Just slow the fuck down.

Back up and slow down.

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1329
What was the original event that triggered all this hoopla in the first place?

Anyone know?

  • Faid
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1330
By the way... I have taken everyone off of ignore now. I decided that even the most abominable Liars have useful things to say once in awhile.
You just realised that you've been responding to me and others for pages now, right? ::)
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Those of you that were confined to the dungeon... Welcome back to Freedom!
...Those are some really weird mental images you have there, dave.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • fredbear
  • Militantly Confused
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1331
What was the original event that triggered all this hoopla in the first place?

Anyone know?
The Civil War? The attack on Fort Sumpter? Slavery?
  • Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 08:21:15 AM by fredbear
"...without considering any evidence at all - that my views are more likely - on average - to be correct.  Because the mainstream is almost always wrong" - Dave Hawkins

  • Faid
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1332
I'm patiently waiting for 'there would have been no problems if people did not protest against the rally in the first place'
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1333
What was the original event that triggered all this hoopla in the first place?

Anyone know?
You're only just asking this?
Were you paying any attention at all during the actual event?

Unite the Right!

ETA:
InB4 "The real cause was GREED!!!1!"
(or junior high school competitive dick-waving)
  • Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 08:26:26 AM by VoxRat
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1334
What was the original event that triggered all this hoopla in the first place?

Anyone know?
The removal of statues of Civil War traitors, many of which were erected in the last century as a giant fuck-you to black people?

Edit: probably a coincidence that the major spikes in Confederate Monument construction were during the "Jim Crow" era, and during the Civil Rights Movement, right?   https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544266880/confederate-statues-were-built-to-further-a-white-supremacist-future
  • Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 08:39:24 AM by entropy
While you were getting your PhD in virology, I got my PhD in truth detection. :wave:  Dave Hawkins

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1335
I'm patiently waiting for 'there would have been no problems if people did not protest against the rally in the first place'
Yeah, I wonder how many Alt-Right talking points Dave will trot out.  We addressed all of these at the time, but I'm sure he will have forgotten by now...
While you were getting your PhD in virology, I got my PhD in truth detection. :wave:  Dave Hawkins

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1336
What was the original event that triggered all this hoopla in the first place?

Anyone know?

Why do you never look for these facts yourself?

There were several alt-right rallys/demonstrations in Charlottesville that summer, all of them organised by well known white supremacists or neo Nazis who used the excuse of the removal of Confederate statues from public lands. You should remember the discussion earlier about WHEN and WHY these mass-produced monuments were erected in the first place - that is, as a form of intimidation and backdrop for the establishment of Jim Crow laws and other anti-black laws.

People in a lot of the towns that had these monuments were quite rightly ashamed of them, given their origin, and in the light of Dylan Roof's massacre of black people at a Bible study group in their church in Charleston (which I hope to God you remember and paid some attention to), they voted to remove them, sometimes into museums or onto private property.

Here are a couple quotes, but you should read the entire wiki article, and in particular pay some attention to the names of the white supremacists and other alt-right groups and leaders in attendance.

Quote
The Unite the Right rally (also known as the Charlottesville rally) was a far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, United States, from August 11-12, 2017.[4][5] Its stated goal was to oppose the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee from Emancipation Park.[6][7] Protesters included white supremacists, white nationalists, neo-Confederates, Klansmen, neo-Nazis, and various militias. Some of the marchers chanted racist and antisemitic slogans, carried semi-automatic rifles, swastikas, Confederate battle flags, anti-Muslim and antisemitic banners, and "Trump/Pence" signs.[7][8][9]

Quote
The rally occurred amidst the backdrop of controversy generated by the removal of Confederate monuments throughout the country in response to the Charleston church shooting in 2015.[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally

You could learn a great deal more by paying attention to the rise of the alt-right, and taking note that the alt-right, the Klan, the neo-Nazis, the right wing violent militias, ALL approve of Trump and believe and state that Trump is 'with them', that 'he gets it', iow, they believe he is also a racist white supremacist just like them, and this emboldens them.

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1337
And the correct answer is...

Removal of statues.

Give that man a prize.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1338
And the correct answer is...

Removal of statues.

Give that man a prize.

read. my. post. #1336.

before you mire yourself in a southern pride confederate history bog.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1339
And the correct answer is...

Removal of statues.
  ::) 

Was that the "Primary Cause" ?

And are you suggesting that all of this unpleasantness could have been avoided if they just left the statues* stay?
Perhaps those offended by them should have been told to stop being such snowflakes?

* Erected during Jim Crow to commemorate treasonous white supremacist slavery defenders and to intimidate black people.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1340
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1341
YOUR RADICAL LEFTIST NAZI AGENDA

:facepalm:

You STILL haven't figured out what Naziism is. 
(And isn't).

Here's a clue, Dave:  when you find yourself on the same side with David Duke, you are probably defending Nazis.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1342
Basically, defending the south's position in the civil war cannot be divorced from the south's causes for engaging in the war which were explicitly given as the right to maintain slavery. Whatever, er, shithole the North might have been is entirely irrelevant since the explicit reasoning for secession and hence the war itself was the right to maintain the institution of chattel slavery. There is no argument that can give the south even a tiny bit of redemption since they fought explicitly to preserve their right to own human beings.
If you really believe what you are saying here, then you are automatically an advocate of World Government.  Which I think will be an even greater evil.  Read Orwell's book "1984"

Several things.

1) 1984 did not state there was a world government (and at most, implies that there may be a possibility of one, if I remember the conversation with O'Brien).

2) 1984 was certainly not about the dangers of a world government. If anything, the closest is that it warned about the dangers of an all-encompassing government - one which decided what was true, what was right, what was given, and what was taken. The closest we have these days probably is North Korea. Which is nowhere near a world government.

3) nothing in Testy's post has to do with a world government - or even an all-encompassing government. The idea that states are allowed to object to the treatment of members of other states in no way implies support for a world government.
You obviously have not read "1984" ... it describes an all encompassing government which controls and manipulates citizens lives.  And if you didn't tow the party line, you got re-educated by the Ministry of Love (i.e. tortured).
You're an idiot. Reread my post and tell me again that I didn't read 1984.
Quote
The United States was set up to be a loose federation of sovereign states, but would-be Big Brothers influenced things over time to give the central government more and more power so that by 1860, it was powerful enough to dictate to the South what they could and couldn't do.  Bad situation.  Never intended by our founders. 
Interesting. Would you consider Thomas Jefferson to be one of those "would-be Big Brothers"?
Quote
Similar situation to the government described in 1984. 
What?

No seriously, what?
Quote
Notice that N. Korea - in contrast to the antebellum South IS truly sovereign.  They can do whatever the hell they want to their citizens and no one invades them and takes over like the North did to the South.  Does this mean they are a good country?  Of course not.  But at least they are sovereign.  And it's more important in our world for countries to maintain their sovereignty than for them to be good.  Let that sink in. 
I've already let it sink in, Dave. It's mind-numbingly stupid.
Quote
Badness can be changed over time. And it can be changed through peaceful means.  Sovereignty on the other hand, once lost, is very hard to regain and what you end up with if you lose sovereignty is a super government which inevitably will go bad and be just like Big Brother described in 1984.  And that I'm afraid ... is where we are headed in our world today ... regardless of who is POTUS.

Interesting. You don't even see the contradiction in the end of your post.

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1343
YOUR RADICAL LEFTIST NAZI AGENDA

:facepalm:

You STILL haven't figured out what Naziism is. 
(And isn't).

Here's a clue, Dave:  when you find yourself on the same side with David Duke, you are probably defending Nazis.

Good catch.

Dave, google the definition of oxymoron. :grin:
A walk through the ocean of most mens souls would scarcely get your feet wet.

  • fredbear
  • Militantly Confused
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1344
Dave, I'm going to repeat this from Borealis' post because it's really really important.

You could learn a great deal more by paying attention to the rise of the alt-right, and taking note that the alt-right, the Klan, the neo-Nazis, the right wing violent militias, ALL approve of Trump and believe and state that Trump is 'with them', that 'he gets it', iow, they believe he is also a racist white supremacist just like them, and this emboldens them.
"...without considering any evidence at all - that my views are more likely - on average - to be correct.  Because the mainstream is almost always wrong" - Dave Hawkins

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1345
Dave, did you read, or just Hawkins Trump's statement? Look again, particularly at the sentence immediately after the part you bolded. He explicitly says you had neo-nazis and white nationalists in that group, along with "many other people". What is that supposed to mean other than these supposed "very fine people" were marching with the fucking Nazis?
Why do I bother?

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1346
Unite The Right Rally:
Quote
Among the far-right groups engaged in organizing the march were the clubs of the neo-Nazi website The Daily Stormer,[24] The Right Stuff,[25] the National Policy Institute,[26] and four groups that form the Nationalist Front:[23] the neo-Confederate League of the South,[23] the Traditionalist Workers Party,[27] Vanguard America,[27] and the National Socialist Movement.[23] Other groups involved in the rally were the Ku Klux Klan,[7] the Fraternal Order of Alt-Knights,[27] Identity Evropa,[28] the Rise Above Movement,[29][30] the American Guard,[31] the Detroit Right Wings,[32] True Cascadia,[33] and Anti-Communist Action.[31]
It was a planning snafu!
There happened to be a Very Fine People march that happened to be scheduled for the same time and place as the Unite the Right event.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • fredbear
  • Militantly Confused
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1347

Quote
Similar situation to the government described in 1984. 
What?

No seriously, what?

This seems to be at the heart of the pathology germane to the current situation, and it's not unique to Dave.

The federal government is eeeeevil! All government is eeeeevil. All taxes are theft!
"...without considering any evidence at all - that my views are more likely - on average - to be correct.  Because the mainstream is almost always wrong" - Dave Hawkins

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1348
I'm not taking your word for any fucking details.  I don't trust you as far as I could throw you.

Trump seems to believe that there were (a) people there peacefully protesting the removal of the statues and that they had honorable reasons - namely, they don't want history to be erased, and (b) there were Nazis that showed up the next day and engaged in a very offensive march - and he rightly condemned them.

So STFU until you can get your facts right.
Trump also used the ridiculously obvious gambit of equivocating statues commemorating the revolutionary war and of those commemorating the war to preserve slavery. Jesus christ you are an idiot. We watched videos of the damn event is how we know what happened. Lots of people actually do pay attention to news outside your little treehouse.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #1349
You obviously have not read "1984" ... it describes an all encompassing government which controls and manipulates citizens lives.
That's all you know about the book, isn't it?
Quote
And if you didn't tow the party line, you got re-educated by the Ministry of Love (i.e. tortured).
And that's what caught your eye while Hawkinsing the Wiki entry.
Quote
The United States was set up to be a loose federation of sovereign states, but would-be Big Brothers influenced things over time to give the central government more and more power so that by 1860, it was powerful enough to dictate to the South what they could and couldn't do.
Really? THAT is what happened?

Why are you lying, dave? You yourself had said (repeatedly) that Lincoln did NOT seek the abolishment of slavery in the Southern states.
Quote
Bad situation.  Never intended by our founders.  Similar situation to the government described in 1984.
:facepalm:
The fact you have not read the book becomes more and more evident.
Quote
Notice that N. Korea - in contrast to the antebellum South IS truly sovereign.  They can do whatever the hell they want to their citizens and no one invades them and takes over like the North did to the South.
The North did not "invade and take over" the South you idiot. We both know that's not how the war stareted.
It seems like the only way to defend your views is to refer to some alternative History that never happened in this reality.
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Does this mean they are a good country?  Of course not.  But at least they are sovereign.  And it's more important in our world for countries to maintain their sovereignty than for them to be good.  Let that sink in.
OK, I'm gonna let that sink in. But I hope you'll maitain the same stance for other countries as well. And see where that LEADS.
Quote
  Badness can be changed over time. And it can be changed through peaceful means.  Sovereignty on the other hand, once lost, is very hard to regain
So turning 'bad' people into 'good' can be achieved "through peaceful means", but oppressed people being freed is much harder? Is THAT what history teaches you, dave?

Perhaps you should check the textbooks again.
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and what you end up with if you lose sovereignty is a super government which inevitably will go bad and be just like Big Brother described in 1984. 
Except 1984 was not about sovereignity of nations, but freedom of the individual.

You have no IDEA what the book is about, do you?

Quote
And that I'm afraid ... is where we are headed in our world today ... regardless of who is POTUS.
We all know your views, dave. Your PMD cult has seen to that.

But tell me: How are you sure Trump is not the Antichrist that will make all that possible? How do you know he's a champion of those fighting against it?

Lol. I just realized he thinks it's about America.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor