Skip to main content

TR Memescape

  • TalkRational: Home of the shitty TR Memescape

Topic: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War? (Read 6884 times) previous topic - next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
  • JonF
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #50
"Very first thing"

Why would it matter if I studied that item first or second? At the end of the day I will have studied both items anyway, right?
Wrong.  One way or another you will never get around to reading any or the posted links and information.

We know you too well to fall for that.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #51
"Very first thing"

Why would it matter if I studied that item first or second? At the end of the day I will have studied both items anyway, right?
Wrong.  One way or another you will never get around to reading any or the posted links and information.

We know you too well to fall for that.
Note it's been 5 days since those documents - absolutely central to the nominal subject of this thread STARTED BY HIM - were brought to his attention. In response to a REQUEST FROM HIM.

Let me tell you what I happen to believe about the Civil War because it will shed light on this discussion. I do not believe the Civil War was primarily about slavery but rather it was primarily about industrialization, which in my opinion was and is a newer more subtle form of slavery. The slavery issue was a tool used by the opportunistic hindustrialists to help sway public opinion.
The states that seceded were very clear about why.
Yabbut dave has this gift for knowing what people really meant when they wrote words that seem to say the exact opposite.
What do you think was the reason given for seccession?
The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States
Quote
The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.  ...
but by all means - read the whole thing.
  • Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 06:57:45 AM by VoxRat
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #52
DETAILED TIMELINE OF FT SUMTER CRISIS ...

Quote
Chronology of the Fort Sumter Crisis

<  clip long list that I seriously doubt you even read    >


http://www.jfepperson.org/sumter.htm

Yes?
And... ?

What do you think this tells about "the Primary Cause of the Civil War" ?

:dunno:
I read the list. Every word of it. You should too.

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #53
DETAILED TIMELINE OF FT SUMTER CRISIS ...

Quote
Chronology of the Fort Sumter Crisis

<  clip long list that I seriously doubt you even read    >


http://www.jfepperson.org/sumter.htm

Yes?
And... ?

What do you think this tells about "the Primary Cause of the Civil War" ?

:dunno:
I read the list. Every word of it. You should too.
I have too. And I have the same question.

It describes some unremarkable political and logistical maneuvers, without going into depth for reasons why. None of it answers "primary reasons" for the Civil War.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #54
DETAILED TIMELINE OF FT SUMTER CRISIS ...

Quote
Chronology of the Fort Sumter Crisis

<  clip long list that I seriously doubt you even read    >


http://www.jfepperson.org/sumter.htm

Yes?
And... ?

What do you think this tells about "the Primary Cause of the Civil War" ?

:dunno:
I read the list. Every word of it. You should too.
I did.
It's pretty obvious why anyone interested in "the primary cause of the civil war" should read the fucking Declaration of Causes for secession of the seceding states.
It is by no means obvious what your randomly franoogled chronology of events adds to the discussion.

And from your evasion of the question, I conclude you have no idea, either.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #55
Well my take away from this initial analysis was the following ...

1) Lincoln said nothing about trying to stop slavery in his inaugural address. In fact he was careful to state that he wasn't planning on changing slavery.

2) the proximate cause of the war seems to be the North wanting to hold their rightfully acquired properties such as Fort Sumter and the South not wanting them to do that presumably because in their minds, they were now officially a Sovereign Nation and they probably thought the federal government had no right to hold any property in their state any longer.

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #56
Hindsight is always 20/20, but I think if I were Jefferson Davis, I would have continued to try to negotiate with Lincoln to hand over Fort Sumter to South Carolina peaceably. Seems to me that things moved very quickly and everybody should have taken a chill pill and slowed down.

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #57
I wish you were Jefferson Davis (because you'd be dead)

  • Faid
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #58
Well my take away from this initial analysis was the following ...

1) Lincoln said nothing about trying to stop slavery in his inaugural address. In fact he was careful to state that he wasn't planning on changing slavery.
False. he said he wasn't going to ABOLISH slavery IN THE STATES WHERE IT WAS PRACTICED.

But you know that already, don't you?



Quote
2) the proximate cause of the war seems to be the North wanting to hold their rightfully acquired properties such as Fort Sumter and the South not wanting them to do that presumably because in their minds, they were now officially a Sovereign Nation and they probably thought the federal government had no right to hold any property in their state any longer.
Oh no. You won't weasel your way out of this.
No one cares about the "proximate cause", that is what led to the enactment of hostilities. This thread is about the PRIMARY CAUSE. Remember?
The secession had already occured. What was the reason for it?
  • Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 08:05:23 AM by Faid
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Faid
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #59
Hindsight is always 20/20, but I think if I were Jefferson Davis, I would have continued to try to negotiate with Lincoln to hand over Fort Sumter to South Carolina peaceably. Seems to me that things moved very quickly and everybody should have taken a chill pill and slowed down.
If only they had dave to show them the Way!
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #60
Hindsight is always 20/20, but I think if I were Jefferson Davis, I would have continued to try to negotiate with Lincoln to hand over Fort Sumter to South Carolina peaceably. Seems to me that things moved very quickly and everybody should have taken a chill pill and slowed down.
Who cares?

  • JonF
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #61
DETAILED TIMELINE OF FT SUMTER CRISIS ...

Quote
Chronology of the Fort Sumter Crisis

<  clip long list that I seriously doubt you even read    >


http://www.jfepperson.org/sumter.htm

Yes?
And... ?

What do you think this tells about "the Primary Cause of the Civil War" ?

:dunno:
I read the list. Every word of it. You should too.
Sell me. I see no relevance in that list.

Read the declarations of causes.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #62
Hindsight is always 20/20, but I think if I were Jefferson Davis, I would have continued to try to negotiate with Lincoln to hand over Fort Sumter to South Carolina peaceably. Seems to me that things moved very quickly and everybody should have taken a chill pill and slowed down.
Who cares?

Because then, we might still have the glorious right to own black people. :stuckup:
A walk through the ocean of most mens souls would scarcely get your feet wet.

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #63
In fact, the same question applies to this whole thread. Who cares whether slavery was a "primary cause" of the Civil War? What, exactly, is that supposed to affect?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #64
Notice the date of Lincoln's inauguration ... March 4, 1861 ... Lincoln made it very clear he would not try to stop slavery. Does anyone here question this?  Then A BIT OVER A MONTH LATER ... April 12, 1861 ... Confederates bombarded Ft. Sumter.  Surely you will not try to tell me that the Confederates heard the speech, concluded that they were going to lose their slaves, and started bombing?  Surely you will not take that position?  Will you?

Notice also this paragraph in the Wiki article on Lincoln's inaugural address ... "Use of force: Lincoln promised that there would be no use of force against the South, unless it proved necessary for him to fulfill his obligation to "hold, occupy, and possess the property and places" belonging to the federal government, and to collect legal duties and imposts. However, if the South chose to actively take up arms against the Government, their insurrection would meet a firm and forceful response."
Bluffy, surely you accept that South Carolina had already seceded from the Union, on December 20,1860, a week short of four months previous to the bombardment on April 12, 1861. And as was stated in the "Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina" Slavery was one of, if not they primary cause.

With the above in mind, reread Lincoln's speech again, the parts about holding on to federal property and continuing to collect taxes and duties and regulate access as a reason to use force as necessary. That should clear things up right away.
Are we there yet?

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #65
Well my take away from this initial analysis was the following ...

1) Lincoln said nothing about trying to stop slavery in his inaugural address. In fact he was careful to state that he wasn't planning on changing slavery.
Lincoln - and the political party he headed - had a long history on the issue of slavery. The statements in his inaugural address have very little to do with it. The die was cast when he won the election - months before he was inaugurated.

Quote
2) the proximate cause of the war seems to be the North wanting to hold their rightfully acquired properties such as Fort Sumter ...
This thread is entitled "Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War". 
Are you confused about the relationship between "primary cause" and "proximate cause"?

The proximate cause of WWII was the German invasion of Poland.
Is it your understanding that that was the primary cause?
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Faid
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #66
This thread is entitled "Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War".  Are you confused about the relationship between "primary cause" and "proximate cause"?
He's not confused. he's deliberately obfuscating. It's rather silly.

My guess is that he did read Declaration of Causes, he realized he goofed, and he's looking for a way out.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #67
In fact, the same question applies to this whole thread. Who cares whether slavery was a "primary cause" of the Civil War? What, exactly, is that supposed to affect?

Just off the top of my head, I would suggest that whitewashing the primary cause of the US Civil war as 'Northern Aggression' or 'states' rights' or other, as opposed to the established and wealth-producing practice of slavery, allows Americans to ignore the real history of their nation, and likewise ignore the reverberations of that history to the present day.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #68
Notice the date of Lincoln's inauguration ... March 4, 1861 ... Lincoln made it very clear he would not try to stop slavery. Does anyone here question this?
Sigh. No, dave. In fact, it probably was not the first time Lincoln (or the Republican party) had  said that.
Quote
Then A BIT OVER A MONTH LATER ... April 12, 1861 ... Confederates bombarded Ft. Sumter.  Surely you will not try to tell me that the Confederates heard the speech, concluded that they were going to lose their slaves, and started bombing?  Surely you will not take that position?  Will you?
:facepalm:

No dave. We won't. I don't think anyone will.

Are you under the impression that that speech was the ONE AND ONLY time slavery was discussed? And ONLY in the context of abolishing it from the states that practiced it?

have you ever studied your own nation's history?
At the time Bluffy was supposed to be learning something in High School, he was perfecting his Hawkinzing methodology.

Quote
Notice also this paragraph in the Wiki article on Lincoln's inaugural address ... "Use of force: Lincoln promised that there would be no use of force against the South, unless it proved necessary for him to fulfill his obligation to "hold, occupy, and possess the property and places" belonging to the federal government, and to collect legal duties and imposts. However, if the South chose to actively take up arms against the Government, their insurrection would meet a firm and forceful response."
Uh-huh.

You DO know the secession had already occured, right?
Not necessarily. Depends on the current davinition of "know".
Are we there yet?

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #69
In fact, the same question applies to this whole thread. Who cares whether slavery was a "primary cause" of the Civil War? What, exactly, is that supposed to affect?

Just off the top of my head, I would suggest that whitewashing the primary cause of the US Civil war as 'Northern Aggression' or 'states' rights' or other, as opposed to the established and wealth-producing practice of slavery, allows Americans to ignore the real history of their nation, and likewise ignore the reverberations of that history to the present day.
This is more a question for Dave; there's a point I'm hoping to get to with it. So Dave: why do you care about the "primary cause"?

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #70
In fact, the same question applies to this whole thread. Who cares whether slavery was a "primary cause" of the Civil War? What, exactly, is that supposed to affect?

Just off the top of my head, I would suggest that whitewashing the primary cause of the US Civil war as 'Northern Aggression' or 'states' rights' or other, as opposed to the established and wealth-producing practice of slavery, allows Americans to ignore the real history of their nation, and likewise ignore the reverberations of that history to the present day.
This is more a question for Dave; there's a point I'm hoping to get to with it.

Good luck.

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #71
In fact, the same question applies to this whole thread. Who cares whether slavery was a "primary cause" of the Civil War? What, exactly, is that supposed to affect?

Just off the top of my head, I would suggest that whitewashing the primary cause of the US Civil war as 'Northern Aggression' or 'states' rights' or other, as opposed to the established and wealth-producing practice of slavery, allows Americans to ignore the real history of their nation, and likewise ignore the reverberations of that history to the present day.
As John Green's schoolteacher said "A State's Right to what, sir?"

Dave, Watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNmeOOJCDY
Why do I bother?

Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #72
Okay Voxrat I'm ready to dive into the individual states and their stated reasons for seceding.

In the opening paragraph I linked to a debate one of The Debaters States the following...

"Only four of the Seceded States' Ordinances of Secession even mentioned Slavery, while all of them had some reference to the encroachment upon the reserved rights of the States."

There were 11 states that seceded.

So I would like to look into this Debaters statement to see if this is true or not.

I still have no idea why this thing capitalizes random words. Smh

  • fredbear
  • Militantly Confused
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #73
Okay Voxrat I'm ready to dive into the individual states and their stated reasons for seceding.

Translation:

I have sufficiently inoculated myself against all possible evidence that contradicts my a priori belief with some horrible racist screed I just read.
"...without considering any evidence at all - that my views are more likely - on average - to be correct.  Because the mainstream is almost always wrong" - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Was the Slavery Issue the Primary Cause of the Civil War?
Reply #74
Okay Voxrat I'm ready to dive into the individual states and their stated reasons for seceding.

In the opening paragraph I linked to a debate one of The Debaters States the following...

"Only four of the Seceded States' Ordinances of Secession even mentioned Slavery, while all of them had some reference to the encroachment upon the reserved rights of the States."

There were 11 states that seceded.

So I would like to look into this Debaters statement to see if this is true or not.
And if it turns out that is true, what will it tell you?

Hint: The Declarations of Causes and the Ordinances of Secession were not the same things.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins