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Topic: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World) (Read 144445 times) previous topic - next topic

Fenrir, Martin.au (+ 1 Hidden) and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31225
Lol

Seems like you've mentioned the word render a time or two. Have I mentioned the word Tyvek? Seems like I have a time or two.

Windows? Doors? What on Earth are those? Never heard of them before!

I'll Google a bit to find out what they are and get back to you. Thanks for mentioning them!

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31226
[...]
Windows? Doors? What on Earth are those? Never heard of them before!

I'll Google a bit to find out what they are and get back to you. Thanks for mentioning them!

Considering your general level of knowledge of the world that surrounds you, it is easy to believe that you really mean the quoted part.

  • Pingu
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31227
Lol

Seems like you've mentioned the word render a time or two. Have I mentioned the word Tyvek? Seems like I have a time or two.

Windows? Doors? What on Earth are those? Never heard of them before!

I'll Google a bit to find out what they are and get back to you. Thanks for mentioning them!

Well, you don't have any.  Or didn't the last time you posted pics.  You had plastic sheeting and a blanket.

Without rendering your strawbales, you won't be able to fit draft-proof window and door frames, as you have no doubt discovered.
I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • osmanthus
  • Administrator
  • Fingerer of piglets
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31228
:popcorn:
Truth is out of style

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31229
I don't have time to do any math or data-grabbing myself, but:

Buried flexible tubing can keep the water circulated through them at a comfortable temp. 

I wonder if an insulated box beside the house, (Like a heatpump outside unit) could house a lead free truck radiator and 12VDc electric radiator fan system to act as both a heat exchanger and fan system as a incredibly simple and cheap HVAC?  There would also have to be a circulating pump, perhaps a bilge pump?

Can't mount it in the house because of fan noise, but it would be incredibly cheap, made with off the shelf components that are already set up for a 12VDC.
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Sun Jan 14 2018 19:59:03 GMT-0600 (Central Standard Time)
you suck at truth detection. (And spelling)

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31230
Personally I like Pingu's ideas for cooling ... whole house ventilator fan in the ceiling ... intake from buried earth tubes ... house sealed well enough that air will be sucked from earth tubes rather than through cracks and crevices in house.  Also, I believe that thermal mass on the inside walls would help level out the temperature dips and spikes.

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31231
Quote from: Dave in the other thread
Also I think it's stupid that in my country, kids can inherit huge parcels of land from their parents and they have absolutely no idea what to do with it.
This is stupid. The kids who do choose to take on the family farm usually have worked there most of their lives. Many of the farmers and ranchers I've known went off to college for Ag or business degrees, and are committed to protecting and improving their land.
The mob grazing family here is on the 3rd generation running the ranch.
Your ignorant, easily-refuted statements don't bolster your argument and reflect poorly on your character. 

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31232
Personally I like Pingu's ideas for cooling ... whole house ventilator fan in the ceiling ... intake from buried earth tubes ... house sealed well enough that air will be sucked from earth tubes rather than through cracks and crevices in house.  Also, I believe that thermal mass on the inside walls would help level out the temperature dips and spikes.
Of course you realize those tubes have to be buried at least 3' or 4' down and it's best to use ADS pipe because of the greatly increased surface area. Deeper would be better, pretty much the deeper you go, the better. However, you do not want to use the air in the pipes directly, given the high probability that mold, perhaps toxic mold, will develop in the piping. You also need to effectively screen the intake ends to prevent used by varmits and other pests. Make sure you effectively seal all joints to prevent moisture and soil intrusion.

Best would be to combine the idea about using a radiator in an insulated container, perhaps buried in the ground, with a small solar assisted fan to blow the air through the radiator and cool a medium in a closed pipe system with radiators and fans in the livable areas. Combines with a heat pump this could also be used during the winter, the probably 55F temp at depth (want to be at least 3\ to 4' below the frost line, being better to suck heat out of then the ambient air outside which would be at below freezing temps. 

In fact, with such a system, one could make it all closed loops and go with liquid media on both loops or at least put the liquid loop in the ground and the air loop for exchanger/livable areas. This would eliminate the mold-varmit-pest issues as well as moisture and soil intrusion into the system. Used radiators are everywhere. Or with an all liquid system, it's easy to make an exchanger. A big tank, well insulated, with a bunch of copper tubing coiled about inside works just fine.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31233
Quote from: Dave in the other thread
Also I think it's stupid that in my country, kids can inherit huge parcels of land from their parents and they have absolutely no idea what to do with it.
This is stupid. The kids who do choose to take on the family farm usually have worked there most of their lives. Many of the farmers and ranchers I've known went off to college for Ag or business degrees, and are committed to protecting and improving their land.
The mob grazing family here is on the 3rd generation running the ranch.
Your ignorant, easily-refuted statements don't bolster your argument and reflect poorly on your character. 
I went to school at Cal Poly, SLO, a significant portion of the student population was from farming. They were the guys sought after as marriage material by some of the women at Poly, being they were smart, wealthy, usually pretty fit and healthy, and often lonely. Plus they drove Ford GT40s and Ferraris and such and were a lot of fun.

Bluffy's characterization simply reflects that his world view is entirely a construct based upon his utter lack of connection with reality. He needs for those kids of farmers to be unfamiliar with farm life, regardless of how completely irrational that belief would be, so he can be the down and out maverick who saves agriculture (and thus the world).
Are we there yet?

  • fredbear
  • Militantly Confused
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31234
.... Plus they drove Ford GT40s and Ferraris and such ...
?

This seems unlikely.
"...without considering any evidence at all - that my views are more likely - on average - to be correct.  Because the mainstream is almost always wrong" - Dave Hawkins

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31235
Quote from: Dave in the other thread
Also I think it's stupid that in my country, kids can inherit huge parcels of land from their parents and they have absolutely no idea what to do with it.
This is stupid. The kids who do choose to take on the family farm usually have worked there most of their lives. Many of the farmers and ranchers I've known went off to college for Ag or business degrees, and are committed to protecting and improving their land.
The mob grazing family here is on the 3rd generation running the ranch.
Your ignorant, easily-refuted statements don't bolster your argument and reflect poorly on your character. 

I suspect this is Dave extrapolating from one or two anecdotes he heard or read somewhere, something he does ll the time. I live in a pretty small geographical area, in less than optimal farming climate, yet between here and the tiny province of PEI we manage to support two agricultural colleges. Somebody's taking those classes. It's very rare that you could buy farmland here, it's mostly being farmed, and not by the fabled 'Big Ag', too small an area for that. Last time you could buy cheap old farms was the late 60s early 70s. Cause I would buy one if they were cheap.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31236
.... Plus they drove Ford GT40s and Ferraris and such ...
?

This seems unlikely.

I dunno ferraris, but lots of farm families are relatively wealthy. Obviously, some are not, and bad luck/bad planning/bad weather can have significant impacts, but modern farmers have things like crop insurance. It is often a very high stress job, of course, but many jobs are.

It's interesting - in the 60s, the  farm families I knew who owned good land (as opposed to marginal land my relatives mostly owned) were just making ends meet. Those farmers now are very prosperous, all their kids went to university, the farms are thriving, and many are very involved politically.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31237
.... Plus they drove Ford GT40s and Ferraris and such ...
?

This seems unlikely.
Unlikely, perhaps, but it's what was. There were three GT40s on campus. Two parked in the lot outside Z-Lab and The Jungle, where I also parked and walked by them.
Are we there yet?

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31238
Personally I like Pingu's ideas for cooling ... whole house ventilator fan in the ceiling ... intake from buried earth tubes ... house sealed well enough that air will be sucked from earth tubes rather than through cracks and crevices in house.  Also, I believe that thermal mass on the inside walls would help level out the temperature dips and spikes.
Of course you realize those tubes have to be buried at least 3' or 4' down and it's best to use ADS pipe because of the greatly increased surface area. Deeper would be better, pretty much the deeper you go, the better. However, you do not want to use the air in the pipes directly, given the high probability that mold, perhaps toxic mold, will develop in the piping. You also need to effectively screen the intake ends to prevent used by varmits and other pests. Make sure you effectively seal all joints to prevent moisture and soil intrusion.

Best would be to combine the idea about using a radiator in an insulated container, perhaps buried in the ground, with a small solar assisted fan to blow the air through the radiator and cool a medium in a closed pipe system with radiators and fans in the livable areas. Combines with a heat pump this could also be used during the winter, the probably 55F temp at depth (want to be at least 3\ to 4' below the frost line, being better to suck heat out of then the ambient air outside which would be at below freezing temps. 

In fact, with such a system, one could make it all closed loops and go with liquid media on both loops or at least put the liquid loop in the ground and the air loop for exchanger/livable areas. This would eliminate the mold-varmit-pest issues as well as moisture and soil intrusion into the system. Used radiators are everywhere. Or with an all liquid system, it's easy to make an exchanger. A big tank, well insulated, with a bunch of copper tubing coiled about inside works just fine.
Have you priced copper tubing lately?
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31239
Personally I like Pingu's ideas for cooling ... whole house ventilator fan in the ceiling ... intake from buried earth tubes ... house sealed well enough that air will be sucked from earth tubes rather than through cracks and crevices in house.  Also, I believe that thermal mass on the inside walls would help level out the temperature dips and spikes.
Of course you realize those tubes have to be buried at least 3' or 4' down and it's best to use ADS pipe because of the greatly increased surface area. Deeper would be better, pretty much the deeper you go, the better. However, you do not want to use the air in the pipes directly, given the high probability that mold, perhaps toxic mold, will develop in the piping. You also need to effectively screen the intake ends to prevent used by varmits and other pests. Make sure you effectively seal all joints to prevent moisture and soil intrusion.

Best would be to combine the idea about using a radiator in an insulated container, perhaps buried in the ground, with a small solar assisted fan to blow the air through the radiator and cool a medium in a closed pipe system with radiators and fans in the livable areas. Combines with a heat pump this could also be used during the winter, the probably 55F temp at depth (want to be at least 3\ to 4' below the frost line, being better to suck heat out of then the ambient air outside which would be at below freezing temps. 

In fact, with such a system, one could make it all closed loops and go with liquid media on both loops or at least put the liquid loop in the ground and the air loop for exchanger/livable areas. This would eliminate the mold-varmit-pest issues as well as moisture and soil intrusion into the system. Used radiators are everywhere. Or with an all liquid system, it's easy to make an exchanger. A big tank, well insulated, with a bunch of copper tubing coiled about inside works just fine.
Have you priced copper tubing lately?
Pricey, but it does simplify the construction of a heat exchanger. Seems like everything is pricey these days. At least in the US.
Are we there yet?

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31240
A 50 foot coil of 1/2 inch aluminum goes for $56 from ac&r suppliers.  I would hate to go direct burial, but it's cheap and recycle able. These could be joined or terminated with AN fittings.  Copper is better for burial and can be soldered, but it's twice as much.
  • Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 02:17:21 PM by Seven Popes
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Sun Jan 14 2018 19:59:03 GMT-0600 (Central Standard Time)
you suck at truth detection. (And spelling)

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31241
Maybe go to pex for the transition from coil to intercooler to drop price, and offer a little insulation for the transition. Air flow would involve suction from high spot and flow from low side with flexible duct, which is cheap.  At season change,excange the duct connection at the box to have it suck from the low side and flow from the high. 
  • Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 02:24:22 PM by Seven Popes
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Sun Jan 14 2018 19:59:03 GMT-0600 (Central Standard Time)
you suck at truth detection. (And spelling)

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31242
The pipe I will be experimenting with is already buried probably six feet deep and it's about 8 inches in diameter. It's a water drain pipe. Not one of my higher priority projects though because I have already had good success with a small window unit air conditioner powered by solar panels. Only downside for that system is noise but it's really not that big a deal.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31243
A 50 foot coil of 1/2 inch aluminum goes for $56 from ac&r suppliers.  I would hate to go direct burial, but it's cheap and recycle able. These could be joined or terminated with AN fittings.  Copper is better for burial and can be soldered, but it's twice as much.
I'm not suggesting using copper throughout, nor would I suggest using aluminum, just for the heat exchanger/storage tank. The rest can be galvanized iron pipe, or pex or whatever. What you lose in efficiency, given the source is free other than capital costs, you can make up for with quantity. Of course, metal will be more efficient and so less pipe and less trench to dig and fill in. It becomes a matter of costs more to purchase, install and life/maintenance.
Are we there yet?

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31244
Here's my latest addition to the farm... these are from a line of hair sheep developed over the past 20 years by Joe Hopping ... approximately 1/2 Katahdin, 1/4 Dorper, and 1/4 Florida native. The goal with these is meat production. A good ewe will produce twins her second pregnancy and beyond ... approximately 70 pounds of packaged meat potential per year per ewe. So if all goes well, 280 pounds of meat per year from these four. I probably should have done this 2 years ago, but I really wanted to see if I could develop a mobile colony rabbit system which required no commercial feed. I got close on that goal but my dog proved to be my undoing. Maybe another year I will try again.


  • Martin.au
  • Thingyologist
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31245
What are we looking at there? Is this your trailer?
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)

  • Fenrir
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31246
What are we looking at there?

Blood for the blood god.
It's what plants crave.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31247
Here's my latest addition to the farm... these are from a line of hair sheep developed over the past 20 years by Joe Hopping ... approximately 1/2 Katahdin, 1/4 Dorper, and 1/4 Florida native. The goal with these is meat production. A good ewe will produce twins her second pregnancy and beyond ... approximately 70 pounds of packaged meat potential per year per ewe. So if all goes well, 280 pounds of meat per year from these four. I probably should have done this 2 years ago, but I really wanted to see if I could develop a mobile colony rabbit system which required no commercial feed. I got close on that goal but my dog proved to be my undoing. Maybe another year I will try again.


Poor fuckers...
While you were getting your PhD in virology, I got my PhD in truth detection. :wave:  Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31248
What are we looking at there?

Blood for the blood god.
Wool for the Wool Throne...
Why do I bother?

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #31249
Here's my latest addition to the farm... these are from a line of hair sheep developed over the past 20 years by Joe Hopping ... approximately 1/2 Katahdin, 1/4 Dorper, and 1/4 Florida native. The goal with these is meat production. A good ewe will produce twins her second pregnancy and beyond ... approximately 70 pounds of packaged meat potential per year per ewe. So if all goes well, 280 pounds of meat per year from these four. I probably should have done this 2 years ago, but I really wanted to see if I could develop a mobile colony rabbit system which required no commercial feed. I got close on that goal but my dog proved to be my undoing. Maybe another year I will try again.



Where's your meat packaging setup?
Or are you paying someone else to do all that?  If so, how much raw warm goat's milk is he/she charging?