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Topic: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World) (Read 211332 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39750
Voxrat ... do you acknowledge that it was a very good thing that the Christian SIL missionaries achieved peace between the Peruvian government and the Matses people?  Or do you think that the Peruvian government NAPALMING their villages is a good thing that should have continued?  (No I'm not asking you to agree that everything the SIL missionaries did was a good thing ... I myself think that if they did in fact encourage larger settlements, then that was not a good thing.)

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39751
Oh, I don't think everything the outsiders do is a bad thing.
If SIL facilitated ending the horrific actions of the Peruvian government - of course that's a good thing!
And if your dad's group helped organize vaccination programs* , that was a good thing!

It's just these zealots who are sure they have The Answer you gotta be very wary of.

* did they?
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39752
Well it's a good thing that I'm not a zealot who is sure that he has The Answer.  It's good that I am a careful scientist who tests things thoroughly and achieves consensus with all stakeholders before launching projects and who launches small projects first to work the bugs out before increasing their size.

:wave:

I'm not sure about vaccinations.  I would guess that they got some, yes.  We had a nurse at the mission station.  I don't recall any talk about vaccinations.  What I remember is just various sicknesses that people had from time to time like malaria.  I myself got malaria once and I remember getting stuck in the butt with a not very sharp needle and also being made to drink something called "Aralin" which was the most bitter substance I've ever had.  Our nurse was a great lady and I remember she had this curious way of sticking her tongue out while jabbing the needle into your butt.  She held the needle like someone throwing darts.  Lol

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39753
I'm not a zealot who is sure that he has The Answer.
So HMG isn't going to Save Agriculture (Thereby Saving the World)?

I am a careful scientist who tests things thoroughly

:rofl:
:rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

  • Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 06:47:52 AM by VoxRat
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39754
Yeah I knew I was asking for it with that statement.  It's kinda fun to trigger you sometimes.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39755
When people laugh at Bozo the Clown, has he "triggered" them?
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39756
In other news, this is very bad ... Trump is essentially promoting commodity agriculture ... corn, soybeans, wheat ... which means more beautiful grasslands like that 138 acres close to me that I was lamenting about will be converted to destructive row cropping.

We need some local laws prohibiting this sort of thing.

Wow.  Lots of work to be done!


Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39757
For the most part, we don't have "Great American Farmers" ... we have CEO's of commodity production factories (which use giant John Deere machines which are too expensive for them to own so the bank owns them and rents them to the "farmers" ) who turn beautiful land into moonscapes for industrial production of commodities we don't need.  (Rather we don't need nearly so much of them).

Sad!

  • Fenrir
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39758
I'm sure thats just part of his cunning 8d plan to make merka great again while saving the world with agriculture. Who are we to second guess such a great businessman?
It's what plants crave.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39759
Random capitalization seems to be another thing Hawkins has in common with his hero.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39760
He's a good guy and a good deal maker.  He just has no clue about Sustainable Agriculture.  He just needs to get connected with Allan Savory.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39761
Random capitalization seems to be another thing Hawkins has in common with his hero.
It's my phone that does that.

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39762
Random capitalization seems to be another thing Hawkins has in common with his hero.
It's my phone that does that.
My old phone did that for a while before it died.
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Today at 07:50:40 AM
Lol
Sea Star has been trolling me this whole time.

  • Faid
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39763
Why did the missionaries encourage higher density settlements?  Aren't they aware of the Tower of Babel account in the Bible?
Yes, but they had the theological background to realize those two things are not connected in any way.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39764
Well it's a good thing that I'm not a zealot who is sure that he has The Answer.  It's good that I am a careful scientist who tests things thoroughly and achieves consensus with all stakeholders before launching projects and who launches small projects first to work the bugs out before increasing their size.

:wave:

Dave, you ARE sure you have the answer. You've been insisting that you do since the beginning of this thread. You've also been quarrelling furiously with anyone who even suggests you might be holding the wrong end of the stick. You haven't even attempted to consider alternate approaches to helping the Waiwai become more food independent. You, for example, ignored my link to slash and char, which would more closely match what the waiwai already do agriculturally, and would be more in harmony with their slash and burn tradition, far easier to implement than introducing animal husbandry, and way less likely to further harm their environment.

Here it is again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash-and-char

I'm not suggesting this is the best answer or best practice, but it is ANOTHER approach among many to consider, and you seem incapable of considering any solution other than the one you personally like.

Would you not be offering more respect to the Waiwai if you could present them with a number of alternatives, a choice of new approaches to a problem, so that with their personal collective knowledge of their own land and culture and desires and needs, they could decide whether one idea or another was worth trying?

Quote
I'm not sure about vaccinations.  I would guess that they got some, yes.  We had a nurse at the mission station.  I don't recall any talk about vaccinations.  What I remember is just various sicknesses that people had from time to time like malaria.  I myself got malaria once and I remember getting stuck in the butt with a not very sharp needle and also being made to drink something called "Aralin" which was the most bitter substance I've ever had.  Our nurse was a great lady and I remember she had this curious way of sticking her tongue out while jabbing the needle into your butt.  She held the needle like someone throwing darts.  Lol

FYI, Aralin contains chloroquine phosphate, which is a quinine, which is the original cinchona bark extract used to treat malaria and several other conditions for centuries. (and also to flavour bitter tonic water)

  • Faid
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39765
Well it's a good thing that I'm not a zealot who is sure that he has The Answer.  It's good that I am a careful scientist who tests things thoroughly and achieves consensus with all stakeholders before launching projects and who launches small projects first to work the bugs out before increasing their size.

:wave:

I'm not sure about vaccinations.  I would guess that they got some, yes.  We had a nurse at the mission station.  I don't recall any talk about vaccinations.  What I remember is just various sicknesses that people had from time to time like malaria.  I myself got malaria once and I remember getting stuck in the butt with a not very sharp needle and also being made to drink something called "Aralin" which was the most bitter substance I've ever had.  Our nurse was a great lady and I remember she had this curious way of sticking her tongue out while jabbing the needle into your butt.  She held the needle like someone throwing darts.  Lol
That's how you do it.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Faid
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39766
In other news, this is very bad ... Trump is essentially promoting commodity agriculture ... corn, soybeans, wheat ... which means more beautiful grasslands like that 138 acres close to me that I was lamenting about will be converted to destructive row cropping.

We need some local laws prohibiting this sort of thing.

Wow.  Lots of work to be done!


We accept your apology.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39767
Self-reflection is an alien concept to you isn't it Dave?
Nah, he just uses a different kind of mirror. His reflects what he wants to be.
Are we there yet?

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39768
Well it's a good thing that I'm not a zealot who is sure that he has The Answer.  It's good that I am a careful scientist who tests things thoroughly and achieves consensus with all stakeholders before launching projects and who launches small projects first to work the bugs out before increasing their size.

:wave:

Dave, you ARE sure you have the answer. You've been insisting that you do since the beginning of this thread. You've also been quarrelling furiously with anyone who even suggests you might be holding the wrong end of the stick. You haven't even attempted to consider alternate approaches to helping the Waiwai become more food independent. You, for example, ignored my link to slash and char, which would more closely match what the waiwai already do agriculturally, and would be more in harmony with their slash and burn tradition, far easier to implement than introducing animal husbandry, and way less likely to further harm their environment.

Here it is again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash-and-char

I'm not suggesting this is the best answer or best practice, but it is ANOTHER approach among many to consider, and you seem incapable of considering any solution other than the one you personally like.

Would you not be offering more respect to the Waiwai if you could present them with a number of alternatives, a choice of new approaches to a problem, so that with their personal collective knowledge of their own land and culture and desires and needs, they could decide whether one idea or another was worth trying?

Quote
I'm not sure about vaccinations.  I would guess that they got some, yes.  We had a nurse at the mission station.  I don't recall any talk about vaccinations.  What I remember is just various sicknesses that people had from time to time like malaria.  I myself got malaria once and I remember getting stuck in the butt with a not very sharp needle and also being made to drink something called "Aralin" which was the most bitter substance I've ever had.  Our nurse was a great lady and I remember she had this curious way of sticking her tongue out while jabbing the needle into your butt.  She held the needle like someone throwing darts.  Lol

FYI, Aralin contains chloroquine phosphate, which is a quinine, which is the original cinchona bark extract used to treat malaria and several other conditions for centuries. (and also to flavour bitter tonic water)
If someone could show me ancient biochar techniques that are somehow easier than what I'm reading about, great.  I don't want to make MORE work for the people.

I'm guessing that ancient people had some slick system for doing it because terra preta apparently was pretty widespread there.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39769
Well it's a good thing that I'm not a zealot who is sure that he has The Answer.  It's good that I am a careful scientist who tests things thoroughly and achieves consensus with all stakeholders before launching projects and who launches small projects first to work the bugs out before increasing their size.

:wave:

Dave, you ARE sure you have the answer. You've been insisting that you do since the beginning of this thread. You've also been quarrelling furiously with anyone who even suggests you might be holding the wrong end of the stick. You haven't even attempted to consider alternate approaches to helping the Waiwai become more food independent. You, for example, ignored my link to slash and char, which would more closely match what the waiwai already do agriculturally, and would be more in harmony with their slash and burn tradition, far easier to implement than introducing animal husbandry, and way less likely to further harm their environment.

Here it is again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash-and-char

I'm not suggesting this is the best answer or best practice, but it is ANOTHER approach among many to consider, and you seem incapable of considering any solution other than the one you personally like.

Would you not be offering more respect to the Waiwai if you could present them with a number of alternatives, a choice of new approaches to a problem, so that with their personal collective knowledge of their own land and culture and desires and needs, they could decide whether one idea or another was worth trying?

Quote
I'm not sure about vaccinations.  I would guess that they got some, yes.  We had a nurse at the mission station.  I don't recall any talk about vaccinations.  What I remember is just various sicknesses that people had from time to time like malaria.  I myself got malaria once and I remember getting stuck in the butt with a not very sharp needle and also being made to drink something called "Aralin" which was the most bitter substance I've ever had.  Our nurse was a great lady and I remember she had this curious way of sticking her tongue out while jabbing the needle into your butt.  She held the needle like someone throwing darts.  Lol

FYI, Aralin contains chloroquine phosphate, which is a quinine, which is the original cinchona bark extract used to treat malaria and several other conditions for centuries. (and also to flavour bitter tonic water)
If someone could show me ancient biochar techniques that are somehow easier than what I'm reading about, great.  I don't want to make MORE work for the people.

I'm guessing that ancient people had some slick system for doing it because terra preta apparently was pretty widespread there.

More work? You only have to produce/introduce biochar once, it lasts for many years and would mean you could use the same plot for far longer than if you just did slash and burn.

It is thought ancient South Americans produced biochar/terra preta by smouldering biomass (the trees etc that have been cut down) in long soil covered trenches.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39770
Hmm

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39771
So the net effect might be to extend the use of each cassava field from 2 years to 5 years? 10 years?

IOW a slow release fertilizer instead of quick release / leach away quickly?

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39772
So the net effect might be to extend the use of each cassava field from 2 years to 5 years? 10 years?

Possibly. Probably. Maybe much longer. The prehistoric terra preta soils have lasted centuries.

A lot of the web sites about biochar et al are commercial sites; they produce biochar at industrial levels and by industrial means, so you need to vet your reading carefully if you're wanting to understand indigenous ancient practices.

Again, I'm not suggesting this is THE BEST THING EVAR!!! Just that it is an alternative that appears to have been successful for a long period of time. There are almost certainly other approaches to sustainable food sources, but you won't know about them unless you look outside your own favourite box.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39773
IRT to this, again:

Quote
If someone could show me ancient biochar techniques that are somehow easier than what I'm reading about, great.

Beware industrial/commercial production, and also some of the 'backyard America' how-to's are kinda ridiculous. Seriously, biochar is accidentally produced by some out-dated forestry practices - they used to clearcut and burn all the unusable branches/vegetation, resulting in a flush of phenomenal growth next season from the ash, but if you observed such plots over a period of years you'd find spots where charcoal was still visible and the soil maintained exceptional growing potential. I think this was a result of how much dirt and soil bulldozers/power shovels would incidentally throw over smouldering biomass. Those clearcuts would smoulder for days and likely sometimes produced biochar.

I'm old, so I remember this effect. Forestry practice now is to let the biomass decay naturally, which is better for a slow, natural progression of species ending in the desired forest. Also they use more of the harvested trees than they used to. They only took the main trunk years ago. If it was for pulp and paper, they only took the peeled trunk

  • Sea Star
  • Not an octohatter
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39774
They still burn slash piles around here. They do cover them quickly so they seep smoke for a while. Part of the Autumn scenery mixed in the fog.
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Today at 07:50:40 AM
Lol
Sea Star has been trolling me this whole time.