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  • Pahu is robotic in his devotion to total nonsense.

Topic: Catalonian Independence (Read 804 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #50
Yep. The situation at this point is that Spain has a bit of power here and when the Catalan hangover kicks in, it's going to be obvious that independence is not as viable an option as Puigdemont wants to make it out to be. Spain can't send their military in because it would destroy their economy to get kicked out of the EU, but they can take a hardline in negotiations and say they're going to oppose EU accession for Catalunya. So basically there are two options. One is that Spain forces Catalunya to take on a lion's share of Spanish sovereign debt in exchange for acceptance of Catalunyan accession to the EU. Another is that Spain forces Catalunya to choose between being a part of the EU and being independent. Ultimately, Catalanos are going to pick EU membership because otherwise Catalunya is going to be economically isolated and Barcelona particularly needs to be part of the European marketplace.

Spain could also take a conciliatory tone and devolve some powers back to Catalunya similar to what was the case prior t the Great Recession, but the current government seems more confrontational and hardline, so that's probably not likely.

But no, don't expect a civil war. This is going to be a drawn-out stalemate with years of negotiations that go nowhere.

  • MikeS
Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #51
When the Catalonians set up their shadow government and then propose that people and businesses stop paying taxes to the federal government and to them instead, that will bring on the national police crackdown and arrest of the leaders involved.

Not sure if there is a bank or system available to the Catalans to create such a set-up, but for a group so entrenched in their goal for separation AND presently in power in the local legislature, power grabs are the obvious next step. 

Not sure how the courts are set up either, but the federal government would be best to arrest and try these leaders in a neutral setting like Andalucia (Granada or Seville), which is a poorer part of Spain and needs the largesse of the government.

  • meepmeep
  • Administrator
  • zombiecat queen
Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #52
Plus Catalonia "borrowed" billions from Spain during the recession, so that's a shit ton more money they could demand back in addition to trying to stick Catalonia with its share of the national debt.

As for devolving powers, maybe you can help me understand this, teeth, since I don't know a whole ton about the situation. Catalonia is already pretty autonomous. The only thing they really lack is their own separate taxation system, their own national bank, and their own big ticket infrastructure like airport control and whatnot. Like, how much more autonomous can you get without independence and how is this expected to make a significant difference in the lives of your average Catalonian? I might be blinded by bias but this hardline independence agenda seems to me to be basically demagoguery.

Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #53
I might be blinded by bias but this hardline independence agenda seems to me to be basically demagoguery.

Same.

Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #54
Plus Catalonia "borrowed" billions from Spain during the recession, so that's a shit ton more money they could demand back in addition to trying to stick Catalonia with its share of the national debt.

As for devolving powers, maybe you can help me understand this, teeth, since I don't know a whole ton about the situation. Catalonia is already pretty autonomous. The only thing they really lack is their own separate taxation system, their own national bank, and their own big ticket infrastructure like airport control and whatnot. Like, how much more autonomous can you get without independence and how is this expected to make a significant difference in the lives of your average Catalonian? I might be blinded by bias but this hardline independence agenda seems to me to be basically demagoguery.

A lot of the autonomous powers were dialed back during the recession and never returned, but they didn't get the federal representation back. The Spanish government is ind of fucked up in terms of overall structure right now. It is not a true federation, and a lot of the regional rights have been struck down by Rajoy and his right-wing government unilaterally, which pisses off a lot of the autonomies. There's also a push by Rajoy to eliminate dialects in the autonomies, which stinks of Franco.

Basically, the current situation is a result of a massive power grad from Madrid. Now Madrid is doubling down because Rajoy is a fucking corrupt piece of shit.

Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #55
Not sure how the courts are set up either, but the federal government would be best to arrest and try these leaders in a neutral setting like Andalucia (Granada or Seville), which is a poorer part of Spain and needs the largesse of the government.

If they did that, there would be a full-on armed revolution.

Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #56
lmao



it's like the white supremacists getting trolled into "antifa" gatherings that aren't real

  • ksen
Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #57
lol

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #58
these catalonians keep hilariously outsmarting the Spanish authorities

  • meepmeep
  • Administrator
  • zombiecat queen
Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #59
There's also a push by Rajoy to eliminate dialects in the autonomies, which stinks of Franco.

This is quite literally the dumbest fucking thing you could possibly do. Like if someone were to say, "Hey, meep, what do you think is the easiest way to completely fuck everything up in Spain?", I'd say threaten to attack dialects and force everyone to use proper Spanish Spanish. Catalonian identity is so closely tied to language, and you could probably argue that language is basically the entire basis for the fucking identity in the first place.

Man, right wingers are truly intent on fucking everything up worldwide.

Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #60
True story: When I was in Barcelona, a local (originally from Germany) told me that people were mad about the fact that the signs in the airport go:
Spanish
English
Catalan

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #61
guessing the standard american response is to make a face and ask what the difference is between catalan and spanish

no, really, someone please ask this for me, so I can hear the answer without being the guy who gets made fun of

Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #62
Apparently in Spanish, Americans are ignorante, while in Catalan, we're just ignorant.

Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #63
I wonder which languages Dave Hawkins thinks Catalan is a combination of.

Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #64

  • MikeS
Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #65
guessing the standard american response is to make a face and ask what the difference is between catalan and spanish

no, really, someone please ask this for me, so I can hear the answer without being the guy who gets made fun of
Just lisp all your Ss and Zs and now your Catalan.

Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #66
guessing the standard american response is to make a face and ask what the difference is between catalan and spanish

no, really, someone please ask this for me, so I can hear the answer without being the guy who gets made fun of
Just lisp all your Ss and Zs and now your Catalan.
Thought that was mostly what distinguished Spanish in Spain from Spanish in Latin America. Also, don't forget the soft c's. Muchas grathias.

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #67
I knew it was a romance language.  assumed it was somewhere between standard spanish and standard french in the dialect continuum.  but would have guessed it would have been closer to spanish than to french because mountains.  looks like the rebuttal is yabut reconquista.

  • MikeS
Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #68
guessing the standard american response is to make a face and ask what the difference is between catalan and spanish

no, really, someone please ask this for me, so I can hear the answer without being the guy who gets made fun of
Just lisp all your Ss and Zs and now your Catalan.
Thought that was mostly what distinguished Spanish in Spain from Spanish in Latin America. Also, don't forget the soft c's. Muchas grathias.
Castillian is the predominant Spanish dialect in central Spain and most of their former colonies.  The Catalans and to some extent Galicians are the "lithperth" of the bunch.  Castillian is the hard pronunciation of all the letters in a word.

I learned this from my Aunt who has been living in Spain since the early 70's and does technical document translations from English to Spanish in a variety of the dialects if needed.  She showed me one of her Spanish dialect dictionaries with around 6 or 7 different dialects plus Basque.

  • Pingu
Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #69
guessing the standard american response is to make a face and ask what the difference is between catalan and spanish

no, really, someone please ask this for me, so I can hear the answer without being the guy who gets made fun of
Just lisp all your Ss and Zs and now your Catalan.

It looks a lot more like French than Castillian.

  • Pingu
Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #70
I knew it was a romance language.  assumed it was somewhere between standard spanish and standard french in the dialect continuum.  but would have guessed it would have been closer to spanish than to french because mountains.  looks like the rebuttal is yabut reconquista.

Yeah, it is.  And even closer to Occitan (the Langue d'Oc). There are a lot of languages on the continuum around the Pyrenees.

ETA:

  • Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 08:01:22 AM by Pingu

Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #71
It looks closer to Italian than French or Spanish.

Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #72
It's apparently really close to Veneto actually. Dunno how much of that is due to Spanish influence in Venezia during the Renaissance though.

  • Pingu
Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #73
There's also a push by Rajoy to eliminate dialects in the autonomies, which stinks of Franco.

This is quite literally the dumbest fucking thing you could possibly do. Like if someone were to say, "Hey, meep, what do you think is the easiest way to completely fuck everything up in Spain?", I'd say threaten to attack dialects and force everyone to use proper Spanish Spanish. Catalonian identity is so closely tied to language, and you could probably argue that language is basically the entire basis for the fucking identity in the first place.

Man, right wingers are truly intent on fucking everything up worldwide.

Absolutely. A fundamental reason behind the push for independence is the Franco repression of the Catalan dialect.  Once Franco went, Catalan became ubiquitous overnight, to the extent that being a Castillian-only speaker was seriously disadavantageous.  And as the Castillian-speakers were mostly poor "immigrants" to Catalunya, there were special programmes to help them learn Catalan.

Catalunya is way richer than the rest of Spain.  This isn't simple. 

  • Bilirubin
  • Ain't nothing ta fuck wit'
Re: Catalonian Independence
Reply #74
I'll make an "X is Spain" joke in honor of Figuer, dead from perverse acts in the face of hurricanes.

RIP