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Topic: Reds in America: a discussion (Read 925 times) previous topic - next topic - Topic derived from Talkfreethought about...

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  • rednoise
  • Sludgey Southern Kitcheneer
Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #50
I mean, fair enough. I'm not a communist. But I am disgusted by apathy in the face of people like Trump or Pence.

k
"Marx and myself, one has fought harder all one's life long against the alleged Socialists than against anyone else"

-Engels

  • nesb
Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #51
Quote from: rednoise
What I didn't care about was your mental diarrhea about Ayn Rand.

I think that edit hit later than my last comment. My "mental diarrhea" about Ayn Rand, contained my main point, though. Which must be why you missed it.

  • nesb
Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #52
To be sure, I don't necessarily disagree with what I imagine your ideal society is. If it would work. I just think we need to work towards a better society however we can, even it falls short of whatever ideal. You seem to agree. Or not?

  • rednoise
  • Sludgey Southern Kitcheneer
Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #53
Quote from: rednoise
What I didn't care about was your mental diarrhea about Ayn Rand.

I think that edit hit later than my last comment. My "mental diarrhea" about Ayn Rand, contained my main point, though. Which must be why you missed it.

If your main point was contained in that garbage then it wasn't clear. I don't have a vision for society like Rand did, so there's nothing to "implement" or "support." Revolutionary change doesn't happen according to a blueprint.
"Marx and myself, one has fought harder all one's life long against the alleged Socialists than against anyone else"

-Engels

  • rednoise
  • Sludgey Southern Kitcheneer
Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #54
To be sure, I don't necessarily disagree with what I imagine your ideal society is. If it would work. I just think we need to work towards a better society however we can, even it falls short of whatever ideal. You seem to agree. Or not?


 I don't have an "ideal" society.
"Marx and myself, one has fought harder all one's life long against the alleged Socialists than against anyone else"

-Engels

  • nesb
Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #55
Quote from: rednoise
What I didn't care about was your mental diarrhea about Ayn Rand.

I think that edit hit later than my last comment. My "mental diarrhea" about Ayn Rand, contained my main point, though. Which must be why you missed it.

If your main point was contained in that garbage then it wasn't clear. I don't have a vision for society like Rand did, so there's nothing to "implement" or "support." Revolutionary change doesn't happen according to a blueprint.

Okay, then. Are your ideals purely abstract? Just some sense of a post-property society? I'm not sure I understand.

  • nesb
Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #56
Alright, no "ideal". Fair enough. So you're seeking some particulars, which has something to do with the proletariat rising up and abolishing property, regardless of whether or not that results in an "ideal" state of affairs. Is that right?

Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #57
I don't really see the positive side of adopting hard ideology.  I do see the positive side of institutionalizing communal values though like limiting the power and wealth individuals can accrue. But then, I'm generally in favor of business as a way of life. Just not corporatism.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #58
Issue 1.  Gerrymandering.  

No one is getting anywhere till that is fixed.



I frankly don't give a shit about "fixing" a system to make it easier for the other political wing of capital to win more elections. So, no.

I have no fucking idea what you are on about.   The object of fixing gerrymandering isn't to give one or the other party more power, it is in fact to take power away from both of our major parties.    And the system can't be changed overnight, and shouldn't be.  We didn't get here overnight.   But in order to get any change to happen at all, you have to chip and chop at the established power structure.   Gerrymandering is the first on the list.    It is vulnerable to local level action, lawsuits, and several states have already put non-partisan systems in play that serve as models.

But yeah, if you just want to rant and rail and bitch, that's fine too !

PS glad all your shit was more or less okay after Harvey.   I read the thread to find out.



Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #59
The working class, by and large, doesn't give a shit about "the left." Communism -- the movement -- wasn't, until the last century, predicated upon soc/com organizations and their activity. It was predicated upon the fact that the working class itself is the only class capable of abolishing capitalism, and that socialists would help the working class in their goals for emancipation from capital, with the idea that furthering class struggle also gets us closer to emancipation.

this is something i would like to get in a position be able to do, but...

Quote
To say it plainly, there is nothing for a communist -- even a communist worker -- to do without that general class movement. Which doesn't really exist, in this country, at the moment.

even if this is analytically correct, i can't get on board with the kinda passivity it suggests. i don't mean this as preaching, this just seems to lead to the conclusion that it's not worth doing much. so even if this is true and the DSA, regardless of its stated goals, can't do much more than "elevate fairness in society as far as it can extend in capitalism" that is still something worth accomplishing so i will continue to work with it.

fwiw, we show up to all kinds of events to protect immigrants but never go to preach or make it about anything else. even if all that does is push back on deportations or make more sanctuary cities, even if it doesn't make tangible steps towards achieving socialism, it supports the needs of oppressed working people so i'm going to do it, as a socialist with a socialist org.

Quote
One of my issues with big tent parties and united-frontism, is that these are elements of the left who have decided on their ideology, and so have given little care to think about whether what they are preaching as socialism is actually socialism or just some modified form of capitalism that they're trying to windowdress as anticapitalism. It's like there's been a wholesale abandonment of socialist theory, and a genuine analysis of capitalism, especially in the last 20 years, but it certainly started a lot earlier (fair to say in the 2nd International.) Frankly, that's the conversation I'd rather have than about parties or what is to be done by leftists.

it's one i want to have with the people i work with for sure. but we can talk about it here too if you want.

Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #60
nesb, if i am reading rednose correctly, i don't think he is about political passivity or apathy in general. some things he is saying seem to lead to that conclusion but only on the specific point of "how to make socialism happen." he's pessimistic about any political movement dedicated to building socialism ever being able to do anything about it because that transition is based on organic changes in the disposition of the working class and socialists can only help that along once it happens. any other worthwhile political activity is a different story.

Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #61
Can we get a mod to split out the political discussion, cuz it's really interesting, but not really appropro in this thread?

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #62
Can we get a mod to split out the political discussion, cuz it's really interesting, but not really appropro in this thread?

Maybe leave it here for a while. Sometimes splitting a thread kills a discussion.

  • rednoise
  • Sludgey Southern Kitcheneer
Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #63
I was waiting to reply to gunner until the thread was split.
"Marx and myself, one has fought harder all one's life long against the alleged Socialists than against anyone else"

-Engels

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #64
Okay then.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #65
There are a few TFT posts which I will move later when I have time, or someone else can move them.

I can change the title if anyone wants that.

Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #66
rednose what do you think of DSA
remarkably epic OP

Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #67
What do you guys think of mudkips?

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #68
rednose what do you think of DSA
remarkably epic OP

It seemed to me to be the organic root of the discussion. You can write an alternate OP and I'll figure out how to insert it if you like.

Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #69
nah idc

  • rednoise
  • Sludgey Southern Kitcheneer
Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #70
Quote
it's one i want to have with the people i work with for sure. but we can talk about it here too if you want.

I suppose I'd start off asking you what your view of communism is? What does it mean to you to have communism, iow? You said before, putting industries under the democratic control of workers is a part of it, but I'm wondering what mechanisms are present when you think about it.
"Marx and myself, one has fought harder all one's life long against the alleged Socialists than against anyone else"

-Engels

Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #71
Quote
it's one i want to have with the people i work with for sure. but we can talk about it here too if you want.

I suppose I'd start off asking you what your view of communism is? What does it mean to you to have communism, iow? You said before, putting industries under the democratic control of workers is a part of it, but I'm wondering what mechanisms are present when you think about it.
eh, that's what i said about socialism i think? i am not sure about communism. but let me think about it a little and get something more involved.

  • rednoise
  • Sludgey Southern Kitcheneer
Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #72
That's one thing to be clarified in this conversation: socialism and communism are the same thing, for me. And there seems to be confusion, from my point of view, in the modern socialist movement about this because of what the Leninists had laid out a bit ago. Where they looked at the proletarian dictatorship and the "lower phase of communism" (per Marx's Critique of the Gotha Program) and say it's all socialism, when it isn't and can't be.

But I also know there are other definitions floating around, like market "socialists" think you can still have capitalistic commodity production and have socialism at the same time. Which makes no sense to me.

So, for you, socialism is a stage of history wherein there is democratic working class ownership of property, correct? Would it be cool if we interrogated that first, before moving onto fully automated luxury communism?
"Marx and myself, one has fought harder all one's life long against the alleged Socialists than against anyone else"

-Engels

  • rednoise
  • Sludgey Southern Kitcheneer
Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #73
Alright, no "ideal". Fair enough. So you're seeking some particulars, which has something to do with the proletariat rising up and abolishing property, regardless of whether or not that results in an "ideal" state of affairs. Is that right?

The only state of affairs I'm interested in cultivating is where property -- the ideology of and enforcement of it -- has been abolished. From there flows a lot of things about current society that produce issues like worker alienation, exploitation, classes and so on. I'm not guaranteeing an ideal state of affairs for anything or anyone. I don't have a crystal ball to peer into.
"Marx and myself, one has fought harder all one's life long against the alleged Socialists than against anyone else"

-Engels

Re: Reds in America: a discussion
Reply #74
Quote
it's one i want to have with the people i work with for sure. but we can talk about it here too if you want.

I suppose I'd start off asking you what your view of communism is? What does it mean to you to have communism, iow? You said before, putting industries under the democratic control of workers is a part of it, but I'm wondering what mechanisms are present when you think about it.
I know almost nothing about the 'real' (?) aspects of communism.

How close is a typical (if there is such a thing) co-op to this ideal? That seems to be the basic idea that at least occasionally actually works.