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Messages - Photon

1
Don't get me wrong. We SHOULD examine those things separately. They are important. But to include them in a food production discussion is beyond stupid.

No, we should examine them TOGETHER.  You know, HOLISTICALLY.  Otherwise you are doing just what you condemn what you fondly imagine octohatter reductionist scientist do - focus on solving a little bit of a problem at the expensive of the WHOLE.

If you design a system in which everyone can produce enough calories to live on, but at a cost of having everybody dotted around on 10 acre lots, you are simply creating a new sustainability problem to replace the one you think you've solved.

Look, Dave, I appreciate, and even admire your commitment and enthusiasm to trying to "save the world" by developing ways of living more sustainably.  But the road to unsustainability is paved with solutions to one part of the problem that create problems elsewhere.

Don't take that road.
I'm not taking any wrong roads.  You know damn well that I'm working on other parts of sustainable living, not just food production, but for some reason you are all of a sudden acting like I'm not interested in that.  I am, but I'm not going to group them together.  For the same reason that you (rightly) didn't want to group human and fossil energy together.

What's happening here is what often happens when you see that you are about to lose an argument.  Rather than admit "OK I was wrong" ... you dispense squid ink, hoping that no one will notice that you were wrong.  What were you wrong about?  Most recently ... trying to say that the fact that cereal grains were staples means that their EROI was low. (i.e. lower than say animal foods)

In this case, your squid ink is especially transparent because you are doing EXACTLY what you told ME not to do wrt conflating human and fossil fuel energy. 
You're missing the point, Bluffy, as is your normal operation procedure. Separating and accounting for individual categories does not inhibit or prevent one from keeping track of all of them as a whole. Ya know, like on a spreadsheet, you can have subtotals and totals and grand totals and even great-grandtotals.
Already way ahead of you bro. I have that spreadsheet in my head but there's no point in publishing it to this crowd. And also it will change.

The hallmark of the charlatan: the evidence is plain as day, just trust him, no need to provide actual evidence for claims.  And when challenged, the preferred narrative can be changed as desired to deceive the highest number of people.

You aren't fooling anyone Dave. Your cargo cult science, malleable as your whims, isn't going to convince any but the most gullible. If you want legitimacy, or respect, your "records" have to come out of your head, and be reflective of reality.
2
Ancient Roman EROI for wheat was about 12

https://books.google.com/books?id=MGMWpZ5XADkC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=eroi+for+wheat&source=bl&ots=OiOX-8dqvx&sig=2pqLmEi0b-o6DmNzXLwZ-kop5AU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjz3vDSpMzXAhXHSyYKHbG5DYYQ6AEIMjAD#v=onepage&q=eroi%20for%20wheat&f=false
I especially like the use of the word 'parasites' there.

Dave, did you read the quote on pp. 53-54? A clear explanation of why and how agriculture enables cities, don't you think?
Dave doesn't need to read things, he's already decided what he wants to be true. It's why he sucks at science. Reality and observation are inconveniences to his preferred narrative.
3
Pingu and Dave Godfrey seem to be getting this stuff.  You other people ... wow.
Yeah, that's probably it. Dave gets it, and maybe one or two others. But that's it. No one can *really* compete with his high speed brilliant mind.

Dave, open your eyes and your goddamn ears, ffs.  You are out of your depth. Again.
4
I don't think there is any great virtue in feeding hundreds of other people.
Hmm, interesting, so you don't think there's any great virtue in, for example, something like this...

Quote
18 "Bring them here to me," he said. 19 And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. 20 They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. 21 The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.
Is magic virtuous? Is it a virtue to say "Wingardium Leviosa", and then make objects levitate? 

Feeding many people I actually DO find virtuous. But fantastical stories about magic Jesus who does it in an imaginary scenario, I do not.

Real people who do actually feed the world: there is some virtue there, even if all the practices to achieve that goal are not currently 100% sustainable.

I don't expect Dave to get it, though.
5
Using squares just makes it easier to put Dave's diagrams to practical use, like as maps for a D&D game.
Unfortunately, Dave's straw had resistance to flame, so repeated casting of Fireball upon his dwelling will do no good. The troll within, however, does have a shit bucket grapple attack, so don't let him touch you.  The Feeblemind spell does little good either, for obvious reasons.
6
BTW, Dave mentioned awhile back his Volvo died, and he's got a replacement vehicle. Though I can't remember what kind, if he said. 
7
Wow. No kidding.  He really does revel in ignorance, prideful of his misinformation.
8
Hello? Halo braces can be TLAR engineered out of wood, screws, and tarps. No way is that kid gonna blow over in the wind.  And even if he did (the tarp, not measured, might not fit), just prop him back up, no harm done.
10
Cows and pigs locked up together is a disaster waiting to happen. Pigs will dig and root and especially if you are feeding them leftover milk, they've been known to suckle cows. That can leave the cows with damaged teats leading to pain and infection, even mastitis. Pigs can be quite territorial too.

Goats and cows in the same pasture isn't usually a problem as long as the animals have the space to engage in their respective behaviours (so large paddock size is a must). Goats explore and browse, and will play, cows will graze and then lay down for hours.  Cows are also curious for new things (people, dogs, music, etc.), but don't always show appreciation for those new things. Trampling a dog (or rabbit) wouldn't be abnormal behaviour.

In a tiny cage, mixing cow with goat is going to be problematic. Goats even if they get along with each other might tend to bully/butt a cow, and a kick from a cow can injure or even kill a goat or smaller animal.

Sheep and cows work better because at least they are both grazers.  But I still wouldn't put a few sheep and a cow in a tiny cage and pull it around a field. That is decidedly going against the animal's natural behaviour. But I'd expect fewer behaviour problems with a cow-sheep mix.

For truly disastrous results, mix pig, goat, and chickens.  It will be like a gladiator match.  The chickens will lose, and the others will likely start attacking each other in small spaces.  I've not heard of pigs trying to suckle milking goats, but they are *smart*, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them try.

11
No idea. 

Right.

Very high I'm sure,

wtf?

Dave: these two statements are in direct contradiction.  If you have "no idea" you cannot simultaneously be "sure" of what the answer is.

It's an insight into Dave's reasoning powers: At first he doesn't know, but moments later, when he thinks about what he wants the answer to be, he becomes sure of it.  It is truly remarkable, that echo chamber that Dave calls "science".

No measurements, and no reference to external reality needed.  Reality is superfluous octohatter reductionism after all.
12
Um, where's my logic error, Dave? LOL

Are you even paying attention?
13
I wonder how long it will take Photon to realize his logic error ...

Enlighten us with your intimating ellipses, Mr. Runs Circles With His High Speed Mind Into Circular Arguments Devoid of Reference to External Reality.
14
... and God knows what else.  That's just above ground. Can you imagine how much additional life there is underground  ...
Wouldn't it be awesome to actually know, rather than have to imagine?
Sure. Feel free to come to my place and check. Knock yourself out. You could also fly to the moon and measure the depth of moon dust yourself.


Funny you mention that. The depth of the regolith on the lunar surface was not estimated correctly at Tranquility Base where Apollo 11 landed.  So much so that the ladder length wasn't quite right. Someone actually had to go there and take measurements. Sometimes, TLAR doesn't work, and even more often Dave's fantasies about what should be don't turn out right either. 

Take measurements if you want to be taken seriously, Dave.
15
Well, since you wouldn't do anything about white snakeroot on your property, Dave, everyone and everything should avoid the products of your hobby farm, your idiotic reductionism masquerading as holism is going to get somebody seriously ill or killed.
Tell you what, photon, why don't you meet with me and Art Ozias, the guy who I am getting my dairy cow from, who also manages his animals holistically and he has been selling grass finished beef and 100% grass fed milk for years.

You can set him straight.

This will be fun to watch.
Hey Dave, on the farm where I grew up, all the cattle were grass-finished beef and we milked by hand the cows that produced the 100% grass-fed milk.  I was involved for about 16 yeas, and my dad for about 55 years total.  So yeah, we did know quite a bit about which plants cause milk issues (taste, or contamination), and made sure the cows didn't get at them. Our livelihood depended on that small bit of income. We didn't have white snakeroot either, which IS in your area.

So maybe get off your fucking high horse and realize maybe other people than those in your little Myopia Kingdom might have something useful to say.

FFS, grow up.
Did you practice HMG? Tightly bunched herd? New paddock daily? 90 day or so rest and recovery for each vacated paddock? No? Then that explains why you had to be a reductionist and eradicate "weeds" or block off certain parts of the pasture. Ranchers who practice HMG don't have to mess with those reductionist things ... and there are many other benefits as well. Too bad you and your dad didn't know this.
What you've said is really dumb. HMG doesn't eliminate a patch of weeds that contaminates your milk, you dumbass. At best the grazing helps the grasses out-compete the weeds, but weeds are niggling little things that have adapted to living in grassland along with grass food species. 

So, stop being dumb, I guess, Dave.
16
My chimney as it is currently configured...


Dave, do a risk assessment here.
17
Well, since you wouldn't do anything about white snakeroot on your property, Dave, everyone and everything should avoid the products of your hobby farm, your idiotic reductionism masquerading as holism is going to get somebody seriously ill or killed.
Tell you what, photon, why don't you meet with me and Art Ozias, the guy who I am getting my dairy cow from, who also manages his animals holistically and he has been selling grass finished beef and 100% grass fed milk for years.

You can set him straight.

This will be fun to watch.
Hey Dave, on the farm where I grew up, all the cattle were grass-finished beef and we milked by hand the cows that produced the 100% grass-fed milk.  I was involved for about 16 yeas, and my dad for about 55 years total.  So yeah, we did know quite a bit about which plants cause milk issues (taste, or contamination), and made sure the cows didn't get at them. Our livelihood depended on that small bit of income. We didn't have white snakeroot either, which IS in your area.

So maybe get off your fucking high horse and realize maybe other people than those in your little Myopia Kingdom might have something useful to say.

FFS, grow up.
18
Dave, unable to assess risk, just thinks "I'll push the button like the Good Lord intended and it'll all work out in the end", while his oblivious ignorance of the system he "manages" leads to sickness and death, all because he couldn't be arsed to look at a plant and identify its effects on his system.

Holism indeed.

Militantly ignorant narcissistic holism maybe.
19
Well, since you wouldn't do anything about white snakeroot on your property, Dave, everyone and everything should avoid the products of your hobby farm, your idiotic reductionism masquerading as holism is going to get somebody seriously ill or killed.
20
No real live HMG rancher goes around killing "weeds" ... he simply manages his animals according to the basic principles of HMG.  You're an idiot if you think they do.
So, if your diet consists primarily of raw goat milk (or cow milk), and if you have some white snakeroot on your property, you REALLY are going to do nothing about it? It grows in Missouri, Dave.

If you do nothing, it's not holistic, it's spectacularly stupid.
21
But back to Dave's main point, yes "reduction of stinker" should be one of the main goals of sustainable living.

I was too tired to think of an appropriate crack.
The crack IS the source of the stinker to be reduced, yes.
22
But back to Dave's main point, yes "reduction of stinker" should be one of the main goals of sustainable living.
23
I remember that shampoo. It really did smell very nice, quite a lot like Timothy grass. You could get these cheap little scented grease compacts around the same time, at 'natural' stores, that included scnts like Timothy, Clover, Birch, etc. I admit to having liked them quite a lot, they actually smelled like the plants they were named for.

yes me too.  I used Timotei for years!  Then changed to Pantene Pro-V  with the patented liquid crystal technology :9w:

I use pantene or dove 2 in 1 because I can't be bothered with going through two hair procedures in the shower and no conditioner leaves me with straw-like hair.

I miss natural single scented products. Everything seems to be some chemical smelling blend now, lavender-mango, or coconut-lily or something, and smells nothing like either. I used to be able to buy this cheap Chinese hand soap scented with sandalwood or jasmine. It came in a beautiful paper wrapper and smelled wonderful, Nowhere to be found now. :(
It must be difficult nowadays to source the Chinese hands, apparently the main ingredient of this soap.  ;-)
24
My guess is...
... of no value whatsoever.
Sure it is. Because it's based on the work of a careful researcher.
Charlatan Dave, talking out his ass again, his self-aggrandizing fantasies propping up that fragile, misinformed, bloated ego.
25
Do any of you morons understand why the Berkeley composting method was developed?
If you follow the Berkeley method, can you please indicate your C/N ratio for your compost?  It kinda hinges on that.