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Messages - entropy

1
Where's the evidence that all those DIFFERENT formations are one continuous sheet? (Let alone one "extraordinarily thin" or  "extraordinarily flat" one?  :dunno:
Who decided that they are "DIFFERENT"? Based upon what? "I'm a geologist and I live in Potsdam, New York ... hmm I think I'll name this sandstone 'Potsdam' ..."
Look at the formations you listed. Different depths, different compositions, some metamorphic.  Obviously the same, right?
But, to play devil's advocate, none of those factors preclude it all being laid down in the same transgression. In fact we can be sure that sediment was deposited over a vast range during the Sauk. Which doesn't mean that Dave has correctly identified it all, but it is what we would expect to find.
Sure, and the fact that there is a ton of limestone mixed up in there supports marine transgression rather than global inundation.
2
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quartzite is a metamorphic rock, so you'll also have to explain how the formations in Utah and South Dakota was subjected to such heat and pressure in the time since it was deposited.
Easy. The heat of decay from all those billions of dead things all decomposing at once. :yes:
I've hiked on quartzite ridges in Killarney Provincial Park in Ontario.   No one who's ever seen it could mistake it for sandstone. 
3
"describe what in detail?"

Lol

The cheese that the moon is made of.

Which "continent sized sandstone layer" are you hoping to prove the extent of? Time period? Anything?

Or just your second law in action?
The one which is called "Tapeats" in the area of the Grand Canyon.  It's called Tintic Quartzite in central Utah,  in northeastern Utah it is the Lodore Quartzite; in Wyoming and Montana it is the Flathead Sandstone; in Colorado it is the Sawatch Sandstone; in South Dakota it is the Deadwood Quartzite; in the Midwest it is the St. Simon Sandstone; in the Ozarks it is the Lamotte Sandstone; and in northern New York state it is the Potsdam Sandstone.

That one.

Stop playing dumb.


Well that isn't continent sized. As per the evidence you presented earlier in the thread from Sloss, that marine transgression didn't cover the continent.

So what's your next move???

And maybe next time, just answer the question rather than being snarky. Seems the one who's playing dumb is you.
By "continent sized" I mean big. Damn big.  Freaking big. Bigger than anything that any placid shallow sea could possibly deposit.

Ah, the davinitioning begins.

By the way, how do you know how big a placid shallow sea has to be before it could possibly deposit such a large sedimentary layer?
Beyond which lies the question as to why do you continue to refer to a "placid shallow sea"? Nobody has conjectured that. Shallow, yes, in comparison to the ocean, but placid?, nah. It was likely subject to the same storms as anywhere else. Wind storms especially, notable given much of the sand in those sandstorms appears to have been wind blown.

It also appears you've learned nothing of how such layers are formed. They are not formed by there simply being a big body of water that the sediment drops out of all over at once.  Indeed, that would not happen in a violent storm even if there was a large sediment load. Agitation is what keeps the sediments in suspension. Thought that would have sunk in with the discussions of flumes and rivers. They are formed by transgressions and recessions. A transgression that might be 1000 miles or more in length, but is depositing only from a band with a width of a few miles at any given moment. As the coastline moves in or out, the band of deposition moves in and out with it. And, no, it was not the same band for all those formations you named. The Tapeats formed from the west to the east. The sandstones in Eastern North America formed from the southeast to the northwest. Can;t be the parts of the same layer.

This is one of your problems, just like with the "placid shallow sea" and "billionsofdeadthings" and "floodlegends" you get stuck on these meme-like concepts. No matter how many times you are told they are not applicable or relevant or even real, you just can't let them go. Simple concepts for a simple mind.
Dave has this cartoon version of things in his head where the flood laid down sediment over North America like a sheet of fondant icing on a cake, and no amount of reality is going to dissuade him. 
4
Where's the evidence that all those DIFFERENT formations are one continuous sheet? (Let alone one "extraordinarily thin" or  "extraordinarily flat" one?  :dunno:
Who decided that they are "DIFFERENT"? Based upon what? "I'm a geologist and I live in Potsdam, New York ... hmm I think I'll name this sandstone 'Potsdam' ..."
Look at the formations you listed. Different depths, different compositions, some metamorphic.  Obviously the same, right?
5
The Deadwood Quartzite is an even bigger problem for Dave

This material was laid down, metamorphosed and eroded into boulders. Some of these which were then rounded by surf then marine organisms made 1-2 inch bore holes in them.  

All while submerged and being buried by sediment in a catastrophic global flood...
6
As always, researching Dave's nonsense results in learning something interesting. 

Here is a cross section of the American Fork Canyon which contains some of Dave's Tintic Quartzite. 

Note that it is at the bottom of a huge amount of sediment on the South side of the canyon, but sitting right on top of the Mutual Formation on the North side.  This cartoon is confirmed by looking at the USGS data for the region (green square).    (this is a really beautiful website BTW, if you're actually interested in Geology and don't think that having googled the names of a few things gives you specific knowledge of those things...   https://geology.utah.gov/apps/intgeomap/#)



7
"describe what in detail?"

Lol

The cheese that the moon is made of.

Which "continent sized sandstone layer" are you hoping to prove the extent of? Time period? Anything?

Or just your second law in action?
The one which is called "Tapeats" in the area of the Grand Canyon.  It's called Tintic Quartzite in central Utah,  in northeastern Utah it is the Lodore Quartzite; in Wyoming and Montana it is the Flathead Sandstone; in Colorado it is the Sawatch Sandstone; in South Dakota it is the Deadwood Quartzite; in the Midwest it is the St. Simon Sandstone; in the Ozarks it is the Lamotte Sandstone; and in northern New York state it is the Potsdam Sandstone.

That one.

Stop playing dumb.

Quartzite is a metamorphic rock, so you'll also have to explain how the formations in Utah and South Dakota was subjected to such heat and pressure in the time since it was deposited.
9
Seems my post deleted itself.

In embarrassing display, Trump flubs test on how money works

I knew he is an ignorant moron, but I thought he was smarter than this.

Quote
He's one of those rare people who managed to lose money running a casino.

With Trump now in the White House, we're starting to get a better sense of why he had so many difficulties in the business world. As The Daily Beast  noted, the president tried to argue last night that he's already managed to shave off a huge chunk of the national debt.

"The country - we took it over and owed over $20 trillion. As you know the last eight years, they borrowed more than it did in the whole history of our country. So they borrowed more than $10 trillion, right? And yet, we picked up $5.2 trillion just in the stock market," Trump told Sean Hannity. "So you could say, in one sense, we're really increasing values. And maybe in a sense, we're reducing debt. But we're very honored by it."

This wasn't just some verbal gaffe. Yesterday afternoon in Harrisburg, during a speech on taxes, he pushed a related point: "Very proudly, just in the stock market alone, we have increased our economic worth by $5.2 trillion, that's right, since Election Day. $5.2 trillion. Think about that, that's a quarter of the $20 trillion that we owe."

This is gibberish. They're the remarks of someone who doesn't know what the national debt is. Or how the nation's finances work. Or even how money works.
Maybe Dave can explain to us morans how an increase in the value of privately owned companies translates into a decrease in the country's debt?   (Maybe Drumpf is going to Nationalize everything?)

usa is not russia yet
derp.  "publically"    I was also not top of my class at Wharton....
Did you mean "publicly"'?
Probibly.
10
Seems my post deleted itself.

In embarrassing display, Trump flubs test on how money works

I knew he is an ignorant moron, but I thought he was smarter than this.

Quote
He's one of those rare people who managed to lose money running a casino.

With Trump now in the White House, we're starting to get a better sense of why he had so many difficulties in the business world. As The Daily Beast  noted, the president tried to argue last night that he's already managed to shave off a huge chunk of the national debt.

"The country - we took it over and owed over $20 trillion. As you know the last eight years, they borrowed more than it did in the whole history of our country. So they borrowed more than $10 trillion, right? And yet, we picked up $5.2 trillion just in the stock market," Trump told Sean Hannity. "So you could say, in one sense, we're really increasing values. And maybe in a sense, we're reducing debt. But we're very honored by it."

This wasn't just some verbal gaffe. Yesterday afternoon in Harrisburg, during a speech on taxes, he pushed a related point: "Very proudly, just in the stock market alone, we have increased our economic worth by $5.2 trillion, that's right, since Election Day. $5.2 trillion. Think about that, that's a quarter of the $20 trillion that we owe."

This is gibberish. They're the remarks of someone who doesn't know what the national debt is. Or how the nation's finances work. Or even how money works.
Maybe Dave can explain to us morans how an increase in the value of privately owned companies translates into a decrease in the country's debt?   (Maybe Drumpf is going to Nationalize everything?)

usa is not russia yet
derp.  "publically"    I was also not top of my class at Wharton....
11
So Ehrlich is one of the few (ballsy) scientists who says that the Sahara desert is a manmade desert, not a natural one.

What evidence do we have for this?

Well at first I looked at Rome and it's deforestation practices, but Voxrat says that Rome only colonized the Mediterranean coast, not the entire area that is now the Sahara.  While this is true, I don't think we know how much of this land area might have been deforested by the Romans.

Be that as it may ...

I've looked elsewhere for evidence supporting Ehrlich's claim.

And I think I've found some in the Tassili n'Ajjer cave paintings in Southeastern Algeria.  If you look on a map at where SE Algeria is, it's smack dab in the center of what is now the Sahara desert.

This website describes the cave paintings.  Note the timeframes ...

Quote
The Pastoral Period (or 'Bovidian period') from around 7,200 BC to 3,000 BC is the dominant period in terms of the number of paintings, during which there is the representation of bovine herds and the scenes of daily life. They have an aesthetic naturalistic realism to them and are among the best known examples of prehistoric mural art.

The Horse and Libyan Warrior Period ('Equidian period'), which dates from approximately 3200 BC to 1000 BC, covers the end of the Neolithic and protohistoric periods, which corresponds to the disappearance of numerous species from the effects of progressive desiccation and to the appearance of the horse. Horses have also been depicted pulling chariots, driven by whip-wielding unarmed charioteers, suggesting that the chariots were not used for fighting, but possibly for hunting.  However, chariots with wooden wheels could not have been driven across the rocky Sahara and into the mountains where many of the chariot paintings occur.

Some of the last artistic images reflect the taming of camels in the aptly named Camel Period, which dates from around 2,000 BC to 1,000 BC. This period coincided with the onset of the hyper-arid desert climate and with the appearance of the dromedary (a camel with one hump on its back). http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-africa/15000-artworks-over-ten-millennia-reveal-evolution-human-life-edge-sahara

Some things to note here ...

1) It didn't become hyper-arid until the 2000 BC - 1000 BC range, much later than what you guys think
2) The "Pastoral Period" is dominant in terms of number of paintings and includes depictions of bovine herds.  Sounds like overgrazing to me.  Does it not to you?
3) The timeframe for the Pastoral Period is skewed.  See RH Brown.

As for your Milankotich Cycle theory ... well ... that's just speculation.  This is a science forum.  We deal in facts.
Reposting for the people who don't read carefully. 

Here are the things that you should glean from this article ...

1)  There was a pastoral society smack dab in the middle of what is now the Sahara desert less than 10,000 years ago.
2)  Hyper arid conditions were not prevalent until about 1000 BC. Much later that you guys believe.

Now you take these gleanings from this article and combine them with things you should already know...

1)  That the 10,000 year timescale should be compressed thanks to the work of RH Brown.
2)  The fact of desertification happening all around us even today as a result of deforestation and overgrazing.

And voilĂ ! You have support for Ehrlich's claim!

See how that works?
I don't want to address C14, so I need a distraction.
FYP
12
Seems my post deleted itself.

In embarrassing display, Trump flubs test on how money works

I knew he is an ignorant moron, but I thought he was smarter than this.

Quote
He's one of those rare people who managed to lose money running a casino.

With Trump now in the White House, we're starting to get a better sense of why he had so many difficulties in the business world. As The Daily Beast  noted, the president tried to argue last night that he's already managed to shave off a huge chunk of the national debt.

"The country - we took it over and owed over $20 trillion. As you know the last eight years, they borrowed more than it did in the whole history of our country. So they borrowed more than $10 trillion, right? And yet, we picked up $5.2 trillion just in the stock market," Trump told Sean Hannity. "So you could say, in one sense, we're really increasing values. And maybe in a sense, we're reducing debt. But we're very honored by it."

This wasn't just some verbal gaffe. Yesterday afternoon in Harrisburg, during a speech on taxes, he pushed a related point: "Very proudly, just in the stock market alone, we have increased our economic worth by $5.2 trillion, that's right, since Election Day. $5.2 trillion. Think about that, that's a quarter of the $20 trillion that we owe."

This is gibberish. They're the remarks of someone who doesn't know what the national debt is. Or how the nation's finances work. Or even how money works.
Maybe Dave can explain to us morans how an increase in the value of privately owned companies translates into a decrease in the country's debt?   (Maybe Drumpf is going to Nationalize everything?)
13
Just so you know ... my definition of "heads rolling" = "jail"
Well, it is now...
14
Hey remember this gem? http://talkrational.org/archive/showthread.php?t=64873 :parrot:
This is my favorite part:  http://talkrational.org/archive/showthread.php?p=2464623#post2464623

Quote from: dave
Sorry... I was moving fast and thought this was WorldNetDaily.
 

WorldNetDaily: The very definition of excellence in journalism.


Edit: Also http://talkrational.org/archive/showthread.php?p=2464688#post2464688
15
Ha! Turns out that article is lying about St. Bernards too.

Quote
The only dog mutant which comes anywhere near qualifying as useful (from the dog's point of view) is found in that big lovable St. Bernard.

It suffers from hyperthyroidism, which means that its overactive thyroid gland enables it to turn food into body heat at an incredible rate, not by choice, but by compulsion. His feet can sometimes be so hot they can melt the snow around him.
Wierd.  my feet melt snow around them too!
16
Handy map, showing extent of sediment cover over Laurentia. Short version is that everything north of Lake Superior and east of Alberta has no "rock laid down by water".
Have you considered the possibility that it might have been eroded away?  Have you considered the possibility that perhaps it was under water which was not carrying a sediment load?   You don't think very much do you?
This flood really does get more miraculous by the minute.  Enough sediment to deposit hundreds and hundreds of feet of rock (some very very thinly!) overy huge portions of North America, but the water is crystal clear over the Canadian Shield!    Please, do tell us more!
God was being nice there. Noah had a glass bottom in the Ark, and the family wanted to view the lovely coral reefs. :)
When you accept that the flood is proven history, this really is the only explanation that makes sense...
17
Handy map, showing extent of sediment cover over Laurentia. Short version is that everything north of Lake Superior and east of Alberta has no "rock laid down by water".
Have you considered the possibility that it might have been eroded away?  Have you considered the possibility that perhaps it was under water which was not carrying a sediment load?   You don't think very much do you?
This flood really does get more miraculous by the minute.  Enough sediment to deposit hundreds and hundreds of feet of rock (some very very thinly!) overy huge portions of North America, but the water is crystal clear over the Canadian Shield!    Please, do tell us more!
18
Yeah even for Dave that sounds like maybe someone misread him. He words things in confusing order sometimes.

Otoh, something about beaches apparently makes him very uncomfortable so maybe he really does think some rivers run the opposite direction. Uphill. From the ocean. Or emerge and disappear somewhere en route to Eden. Rivers. The mysterious blue veiny network on those pull-down maps in school...
Sorry guys, (and Dave).  It was something I thought I recalled from old TR the last time Dave decided to bring up sandstone.    Didn't find it searching, and no one else remembers then I'm happy to apologize to Dave for the slight. 

Possibly you were thinking of something like this...
http://talkrational.org/archive/showthread.php?p=275083#post275083

Looks like someone extrapolating from Dave's claims.

He did, and presumably still does, however, believe that plants make it rain. I trust we all remember that fun one.
Yeah, that could be.  
19
Yeah even for Dave that sounds like maybe someone misread him. He words things in confusing order sometimes.

Otoh, something about beaches apparently makes him very uncomfortable so maybe he really does think some rivers run the opposite direction. Uphill. From the ocean. Or emerge and disappear somewhere en route to Eden. Rivers. The mysterious blue veiny network on those pull-down maps in school...
Sorry guys, (and Dave).  It was something I thought I recalled from old TR the last time Dave decided to bring up sandstone.    Didn't find it searching, and no one else remembers then I'm happy to apologize to Dave for the slight. 
20
At least Dave has stopped blathering about "incredibly flat and incredibly thin!"  So, maybe he's learned something.
21
That's pretty much the situation we have in mainstream geology classrooms these days.
Says someone who's never been in a geology class...   Do you think a guy who learned not so long ago that rivers run to the sea is really someone we should pay attention to on this subject?
22
ICR finds that sandstone in Missouri has layers, and sandstone in the Yukon has layers and concludes the layers are continuous, continent wide.

Let's say a blind man loves international travel and also circuses.  He goes to circus in France and gets to touch an elephant, on the trunk.   He goes to a circus in New York and touches an elephant again, but this time on the tail.  According to Dave and ICR this must mean the elephant is 3600 miles long.
23
continent wide,  incredibly thin, incredibly flat sandstone layer
Maybe you should determine whether this actually exists first.   Because ICR has created a geological strawman here.

There are lots of processes that deposit very thin layers.  Your "continent wide" layers are an evidence-free extrapolation.
24
Dave,  Lets say you dig down in Missouri and find some sandstone and you identify a particular very thin layer.  Do you imagine that that layer is continuous and uninterrupted across the continent?   Like, if you dug a trench down to that layer from Missouri to the Arctic ocean you could follow exactly the same layer the whole way?   Or would you find many overlapping plates of sediment that made up the formation in its extent across the continent? 

Maybe it only *looks* very flat and very large because you're extrapolating the "very thin" layers you see in any one location to the extent of the entire formation.    
25
Incredibly flat and incredibly thin sandstone of which of the Tapeats is one small part.
::)  Its amazing how fixated you are on this.  Seems there should be some evidence if its "incredible flatness and thinness" somewhere besides ICR.   Or I guess you'll just take Bill Hoesch's word for it?