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91
Mafia / Re: Trump Mafia Day 5
Last post by divagreen -
Okay, I think LD looks worst right now, mostly because nobody looks particularly bad.

I am noot gonna get into a slapwar cos I am not certain.

but cld you walk me through as to why ld looks worse than pepper?

cos I really wld like to see what you are seeing.
92
Now 100,000 food calories from 1000 sf is good.   But when managing a complete garden not just potatoes, you will not get anything close to that.  Walter Haugen reports 2 million food calories per acre but he doesn't account for any acreage for compost.  If he did, he might only report 1 million food calories per acre ... or maybe only 500,000.

Anyway, if it's 500,000, then an animal food system probably competes pretty well with that. I personally am producing about 500,000 food calories on about 4 acres but I'm not anywhere close to being optimized yet.

Engaging in baseless speculation again, Bluffy. As noted, generally composting inputs are more plentiful than demand. So no additional acreage needed. Just a pickup truck.

And then you go and assume your low-ball speculation is reality. It's not going to be 500,000, it's going to be 2,000,000. Then you go and assume you are getting 500,000 calories off your estimated 4 acres. What if your estimate for product is low, which I bet it is, and your estimate for land area is high, which I bet it is? Let's do some Bluffy style speculation and assume 400,000 calories off of 5 acres. That works out to 80,000 calories per acre. I'm getting 100,000 calories on 300sf, that works out to 14,500,000 per acre. And that's ignoring that I don't need to duplicate the walkways for each bed. I really only need an additional 6' for each additional bed. Let's go with beds 7X as long, or about 210', and 33 rows. That works out to about an acre. And 231X as much produce. So around 23,000,000 calories per acre.  Remember, I'm using 1 potato per square foot with a yield of 7.5 per and figuring about 160 calories per produced potato for 1200 calories per sf. With 3' wide beds 210' long and 33 beds, I get ((1200 x 3) x 210) x 33) = gives me about 25,000,000. Rounding errors of about 8%, what can I say? In any case, at least 20,000,000.

Can your cows or goats do that on one acre? If you think so, let's see the numbers.
93
Mafia / Re: Trump Mafia Day 5
Last post by divagreen -
tw, I know that you have been on your "ld is scum" high but ld's response looks much more genuine than pepper's.

to me it is like night and day.
94
Mafia / Re: Trump Mafia Day 5
Last post by borealis -
Okay, I think LD looks worst right now, mostly because nobody looks particularly bad.
95
Mafia / Re: Trump Mafia Day 5
Last post by divagreen -
No she didn't vote bili and made a point of saying, 'i think bili is town' then changing her vote to, I think it was nesb?

Diva isn't as cleared as I would like her to be. I am really pissed of with our cop being naive...
But I still think she is town because, if scum, why TT on you Peppermint when there were and are easier low hanging fruit lynchs?
I'm usually easy enough to lynch as is Bor.

No sorry Pep, I am thinking you or LD more than Bor or Diva.

I said bili was town cos of his vote block with testy but have been saying all game that he was stinky, and no, I didn't vote nesb that was you guys, I voted pepper.



96
Yes, well, we aren't going through explaining the advantages of legumes and roots and greens and fruits to you again, either.
No need.

I've got a pretty good handle on it now I think.

When you compare Joel Salatin's pasture numbers with Walter Haugen's gardening numbers, the animal numbers look pretty compelling.

Post the numbers.
I just did.
97
Mafia / Re: Trump Mafia Day 5
Last post by divagreen -
Remember,  diva never actually voted bili when it actually mattered

uhm. I have been dealing with moving stuff. I am not gonna say anymore about it until post game but I think it is really shitty that YOU think that I wld use moving as reason as to why I was not around. carry on, I guess.

see, I think you know I am town. and I am not going to explain AGAIN as to why I think ld is town cos I already stated why.

I am not moving vote from you. and unless you say something incredibly riveting.
bor's paranoia makes sense for bor, even if I think that she shld know better. you are leaping on her caution exactly the same way you leaped all over  rach's niggles about tw.

like, do you think that tw is town now? if so why? when did this 180 happen? other than you salivating at any lynch that you can manage to see through that is not you.

I think you bussed bili. there is a distinct lack of town in your response to both bili's and ksen's lynch.

I think you are scum.

98
Pingu is too lazy to  come up with any details so as usual, I will have to do most of the legwork if I want to have an analysis of feeding people with plant foods.  The key difficulty is going to be producing compost and the Berkeley method is one popular method, described here. http://lloydrichardsdesign.com/2017/01/14/berkeley-composting-method/

 Basically you get a one cubic meter pile of materials consisting of roughly 2 parts brown material and one part green material.  After 18 days of backbreaking work, you will have some finished compost. I'm not sure how much you will have but certainly not one cubic meter.  If it says in this article, I missed it but perhaps you have 1/3 of a m³.  A good vegetable gardener friend of mine mixes 1/3 compost with 1/3 vermiculite and 1/3 peat for his garden beds.  He uses 4' x 8' garden beds and plants one seed potato per square foot.  So the finished compost produced from our one cubic meter pile would be just about right for our 4 x 8 garden bed.  Let's assume that we get five decent size potatoes per square foot and that comes out to 1000 food calories per square foot.  So our one cubic meter of  Green and brown materials plus 18 days of backbreaking labor plus vermiculite plus peat moss plus planting labor plus harvesting labor plus watering and weeding and everything else produces 32,000 food calories.

NOW  we are getting closer to what I would consider to be a complete analysis.
Did you actually read that article?
Because it does not describe 18 days of back breaking work. Rather it's
Quote
When the pile is complete you can cover the pile to reduce water evaporation or encase of heavy rains, but if you live in the UK then its not necessary.  The day you make the compost counts as Day 1.
Three days later, on Day 4, you will do the first turn.  Take off the wire fencing, rebuilt it next to  it and then turn the compost into the new area.  Unless the compost has dried out there wont be any need to water it again, but if it is dry then add just enough water to get it damp again. You should also notice that the pile is steaming slightly at this point.
Now you repeat this every second day, giving the compost one day of rest between turns.  So turn it on Day 6, Day 8, Day 10, Day 12, Day 14, Day 16 and Day 18.
So, from the 4th day on, every other day, you spend about half an hour. For a total of about 6 to 8 hours of mild labor. Also, from that initial 1m3 you will get about 2.25 meters of soil when mixed as you suggest. That's good for about 7.5m2 or about 81ft2, not just 32ft2. And you'll usually get from 5 to 10 potatoes per sf, figure 7.5 per sf. which at 163 cap per, yields about 100,000 calories. Planting effort is minimal, at least in my experience, 9ydsft2 might take a couple of hours. Harvesting perhaps the same though I've done it while taking a break from work and strolling through the garden. Watering was about the same deal as was weeding.

How many calories are you going to get with a cow in a stationary pen that's 9' x 9'? And, by the way, your cow is going to graze that 81sf to dirt in about two days. So you'll be feeding it hay or something. Nice thing about the potatoes, with a little bit of pvc piping and some clear plastic, you can do 3 to 4 crops a year. So make that 300,000 to 400,000 calories per year.

BTW, if you are going to robocage your cow, I get to expand my square footage of potato beds an equal amount that your cage sweeps through.
Ok I'll give a bit here. I'll go with 2 beds 32 sf each. Compost input is 1 cu m per year, peat and vermiculite are inputs every 5 years (?).  I'll go with 50,000 food calories per bed for a total of 100,000 for the two beds.

Now ... how much land area to produce the 1 cu m of compost? 2 parts brown and 1 part green. I would be surprised if it's less than 50 sq m. Imagine a 7 x 7 m square with a tree which is pruned for brown material and grass which is cut for the green material.

If this is close, then we have 550 sf plus 64 sf plus maybe another 33 sq ft for paths to produce the 100,000 food calories from potatoes. About 650 sf. But it could be more like 1000 sf.

No, Bluffy, it's 81sf. Three 3' x 9' beds or better, one 3' x 27' bed. With a 3' walk on each side, that's 9' x 27', make it 30' for a connecting walk. So 270sf. No area is required for the compost, except for the composter itself, maybe 30sf, so we're up to 300sf. The potato plants themselves will produce a goodly amount of input, along with other trimmings, grass cuttings, leaves, kitchen waste, newpapers, coffee grinds, etc. Remember, it's once, maybe twice a year. If someone doesn't produce at least half a cubic yard of just kitchen waste in a year I'd be totally surprised. And, you know, there's lots of leaves falling in the the fall. And many communities have free compost material from park and road trimmings. Normally there is way more available material than need.

As for the area, you jump from 650sf to 1000sf, a 50% increase for no reason, with hardly a burp. What sort of analysis is this?

And with two crops a year, that's 200,000 calories. Can your cow or a pair of goats produce 200,000 calories a year on just 300sf? Remember, you don't get to drag your robo-cage all over a bunch of acreage, just 300sf. Remember that's just 10' wide x  30' long. meaning you have to drag your 10' x 10' robo-cage back and forth of that same 30' length, or two moves one way and two moves back. Certainly your livestock are going to stomp and piss and shut that little bit of pasture to the extreme.

Just another example of your typical shallow, not even back of the napkin, blindered "analysis. You have an answer you want to end up with and so you figure out how to get there, regardless of anything else.



99
Yes, well, we aren't going through explaining the advantages of legumes and roots and greens and fruits to you again, either.
No need.

I've got a pretty good handle on it now I think.

When you compare Joel Salatin's pasture numbers with Walter Haugen's gardening numbers, the animal numbers look pretty compelling.

Post the numbers.
100
Yes, well, we aren't going through explaining the advantages of legumes and roots and greens and fruits to you again, either.
No need.

I've got a pretty good handle on it now I think.

When you compare Joel Salatin's pasture numbers with Walter Haugen's gardening numbers, the animal numbers look pretty compelling.