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  • ksen
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And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
A far-left politician is shaking up France's presidential race

Quote
Long stuck in fifth position, and all but completely dismissed as a contender, Melénchon was polling just around 12 percent back in early March. Then, last week, he suddenly popped way up in the polls: He's now jostling with conservative candidate Francois Fillon (who has been mired in scandal for weeks) for third place, with 19 percent of the vote.

With Emmanuel Macron, the centrist former banker, and the far-right populist Marine Le Pen both polling only a bit higher, at 22.5 and 23 percent respectively, some election watchers are now wondering if Melénchon might be poised for a stunning upset.

Unlikely as it sounds, it's certainly possible. In a post-Brexit, post-Trump era where populism is upending politics across the West, all bets are off.

Melénchon's surge is partly explained by French millennials and the French disgruntled with globalization: They like his outsider talk and his eloquent takedowns of his opponents during the two televised presidential debates.

I particularly like how they try to compare the rise of Melenchon with the rise of Trump.  I mean let's just nevermind that Trump's success was fueled mostly by xenophobia and racism while Melenchon's seems to be based on a more Sandersesque recognition of the current class war.

The writer shows his bias with:

Quote
Fears that the presidential election could come down to an unexpected run-off between the staunchly anti-EU Le Pen and the just-as-staunchly anti-EU Melénchon -- instead of between Le Pen and the centrist former banker Macron -- have caused markets to react negatively, with the euro already falling against the dollar and the yen in response.

Economists and business leaders, too, are reacting with alarm. "With the growing threat of euroskeptic parties destabilizing the eurozone's unity weighing heavily on sentiment, the euro may be in store for further punishment," Lukman Otunuga, a research analyst with FXTM, a foreign exchange brokerage firm, told ABC News last week.

Pro-EU is the "centrist" position.  Is it?  Or is it just the position accepted by the same people that brought us militant privatization, doubled-down austerity and the 2008 financial crisis?

We can't spook the upper-class with all this talk about actually doing something for the people being squeezed to death in our current system.  Why, that's reactionary!

Good luck in the elections Melenchon and god-speed.

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #1
lol you dummy

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #2
France is pretty well screwed this time around
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #3
But seriously ksen, the EU is keeping things from getting incredibly dire in western Europe. It provides opportunities for job mobility for a lot of people and has maintained stability for a lot of small businesses especially in agriculture which would have tanked and been replaced if not for the single market. Eliminating the EU won't bring back manufacturing but it will keep young people in countries like Spain and Italy from seeking jobs abroad, and could cause severe issues in those countries as France, Germany, and the UK secede from the EU.

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #4
But seriously teeth, the single currency is a disaster for countries that aren't Germany.  The inability to control their currency leads to massive suffering if they're not able to get and maintain a trade surplus.  It's also used as a cudgel to bring to heel countries that have the nerve to elect a Leftist government by forcing austerity on them when if they had control of their currency they could inflate or deflate it as circumstances change to help get out of trouble.

You can negotiate those things you talk about between nations but the single currency without political integration needs to go.

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #5
Yes, anything remotely related to the single currency was totally the rationale behind Brexit, which was not part of the single currency.

You doofus.

  • ksen
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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #6
Are you sure you know what this thread is supposed to be about?

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #7
are you?

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #8
So basically yes sure the left is trying their hand at the same populism that the right has succeeded on. This is why noted pseudosocialist labor rights advocate Jeremy Corbyn has been perfectly amenable to Brexit and has worked surprisingly closely with May despite the left largely rejecting Brexit. You can also see this in supposedly leftist parties like Cinque Stelle in Italy, which have a platform built solely on rejection of "elites" and possible reconsideration of EU ties (e.g. suspension of the Schengen accords) and no clear leftist platform.

I think you're taking a very specific reading of the Greek referendums and assuming that this is what all the left-populist movements are when in fact it is not.

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #9
Yep.

It's about the media portraying the Leftist French candidate as a symptom of Trumpism in France and lumping Melenchon in with Le Pen even though the forces behind the rise of Melenchon have nothing to do with Trump.  It's possible to be an EU-skeptic from the Left side without hitting the notes Le Pen and Trump do.

It's also about the norming of politicians like Macron as "center" candidate when in fact they are just for more of the same upper-class friendly policies already in effect.  Any challenge to the status quo is met with cries of "TRUMP!" or "BREXIT!" and it's just silly.

The way the EU is currently set up is bad for nations struggling within the single currency framework.  It's bad because the EU is basically Germany throwing its weight around and forcing countries to abide by German financial sensibilities.  Those don't work for every country.  And as at least Greece and Spain have shown can be downright harmful to real people.

Well, I reject the idea that Macron symbolizes the center of anything.  He's a tool of the elite and probably just a tool in general.

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #10
So basically yes sure the left is trying their hand at the same populism that the right has succeeded on.

That's what I'm saying is not happening.  But the media and very serious people in politics are eager to push that particular refrain.

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #11
Corbyn has essentially showed his hand in condoning actions against foreign nationals living in the UK, supporting both forcible removal of EU nationals who have legally been living and working in the UK as part of the EU. The very root of "leftist" populism is "we need to get rid of immigrants who come here and steal our jobs." I really don't see how it's "better" because the whole point is still to uproot people who are legally working and residing in a place because of citizenship and give their job to a less deserving domestic.

Really, fuck populism.

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #12
Corbyn has essentially showed his hand in condoning actions against foreign nationals living in the UK, supporting both forcible removal of EU nationals who have legally been living and working in the UK as part of the EU. The very root of "leftist" populism is "we need to get rid of immigrants who come here and steal our jobs." I really don't see how it's "better" because the whole point is still to uproot people who are legally working and residing in a place because of citizenship and give their job to a less deserving domestic.

Really, fuck populism.
well, meritocracy has it's problems too. I wouldn't say it has any moral Ayn high ground.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #13
The issue isn't really one about meritocracy. The issue is that people are facing the very real possibility that they're going to be uprooted out of their lives because of the country that issued their passport. The issue is that people who have been living and working in the UK for 20 years now are facing the very real possibility that they will not be able to stay in their jobs, in their homes, and with their families, because of the passport they carry. The complete lack of political sense within the current populist leadership on both the Left and the Right means that Brexit is very likely to be carried out in the most cruel and vindictive manner possible, breaking up families, forcing children to move abroad to countries they have never lived in, and so on.

People of mediocre skills should be allowed to find jobs that will support them both during their working years and in their retirement, and will make them feel that they have the opportunity to contribute to society and fulfill personal goals. We do not disagree on that. But the idea that mediocre people should have a right to dismantle other people's lives because they covet their careers is utterly repugnant to me and ought to be repugnant to everyone. Fuck populism.

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #14
Yeah, I don't think that's exactly populism. It sounds to me like your definition includes xenophobia and racism as features. I'm not sure that labels are all that helpful. Authoritarianism is its own issue and label. Those who seem to impose an authority on others qua others rather than to limit and regulate certain social behavior as is the legitimate domain of politics isn't something I'd call populism. That's the problem with labels though, I guess. As soon as you get a good one, people start using it and it goes to shit.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • ksen
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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #15
Corbyn has essentially showed his hand in condoning actions against foreign nationals living in the UK, supporting both forcible removal of EU nationals who have legally been living and working in the UK as part of the EU. The very root of "leftist" populism is "we need to get rid of immigrants who come here and steal our jobs." I really don't see how it's "better" because the whole point is still to uproot people who are legally working and residing in a place because of citizenship and give their job to a less deserving domestic.

Really, fuck populism.
What's that got to do with Melenchon?

http://www.lemonde.fr/personnalite/jean-luc-melenchon/programme/

Quote
Immigration

Unfavorable to immigration quotas

Jean-Luc Mélenchon mocked François Fillon's proposal to introduce immigration quotas during the televised debate on 20 March. For him, they will not dissuade immigrants from entering the territory and priority is given to improving the reception conditions for migrants.

TF1, 20 March 2017
Compare the proposals of the presidential candidates on this subject

Rejecting the agreement on migrants with Turkey

Rebuilding the EU's external border control policy and rejecting the militarization of the migration control policy. Deny the agreement "Visa + accession against migrants" with Turkey.

The Future in Common, February 2017

Defending the right of the integral soil

Defend the right of integral soil for children born in France, including in the overseas.

The Future in Common, February 2017
Compare the proposals of the presidential candidates on this subject

Improving reception conditions for migrants in Europe

To assume our duty of humanity towards refugees arriving in Europe.
-Respecting the human dignity of migrants, their fundamental right to a family life and accompanying unaccompanied minors.
-To finish the placement in child retention center, even accompanied by their parents.
-Building camps with international standards along the lines of Grande-Synthe, to offer migrants dignified conditions and reception centers for asylum seekers to host them during the analysis of their application .
-Reaffirm and promote the right of asylum in the territory of the Republic, to welcome the refugees who fall under it, through an administration adapted to this mission.

The Future in Common, February 2017
Compare the proposals of the presidential candidates on this subject

Reinstatement of the ten-year residence permit as a residence permit for foreigners

Reinstate the ten-year residence permit as a residence permit for foreigners.

The Future in Common, February 2017

Strengthening Civilian Rescue Capacities in the Mediterranean Sea

In Europe, break the impasse of Schengen and Frontex. Strengthen civilian rescue capabilities in the Mediterranean Sea to avoid thousands of drowned people.

The Future in Common, February 2017
Compare the proposals of the presidential candidates on this subject

Maintaining State Medical Assistance (AME)

Universal Health Coverage (CMU) and State Medical Aid (AME) would not be altered.

Response to site place of health,
Compare the proposals of the presidential candidates on this subject

Construct a European program for return assistance for refugees who so wish when the situation in their country of origin allows

Construct a program to assist returning refugees who so wish when the situation in their country of origin permits.

The Future in Common, February 2017

Regularizing undocumented workers

Regularize undocumented workers to ensure social equality among workers.

The Future in Common, February 2017

Rebuilding the European Border Control Policy

Rebuilding the EU's external border control policy and rejecting the militarization of the migration control policy. Deny the agreement "Visa + accession against migrants" with Turkey.

The Future in Common, February 2017
Compare the proposals of the presidential candidates on this subject

Facilitating access to French nationality for foreigners legally present on the territory

Facilitate access to French nationality for foreigners legally present on the territory.

The Future in Common, February 2017

Promoting family reunification

The candidate does not make a specific proposal, but in his book The Future in Common , he talks about "respecting the human dignity of migrants, their fundamental right to a family life ...".

The Future in Common, December 1, 2016

Oh yeah, nothing.

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #16
"The EU" and single-currency aren't one in the same  :dunno:

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #17
Also the American political system is structured so completely differently from the French one that talking about "opening up the debates" and the impact it would have on the Presidency is just silly.

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #18
A far-left politician is shaking up France's presidential race

Quote
Long stuck in fifth position, and all but completely dismissed as a contender, Melénchon was polling just around 12 percent back in early March. Then, last week, he suddenly popped way up in the polls: He's now jostling with conservative candidate Francois Fillon (who has been mired in scandal for weeks) for third place, with 19 percent of the vote.

With Emmanuel Macron, the centrist former banker, and the far-right populist Marine Le Pen both polling only a bit higher, at 22.5 and 23 percent respectively, some election watchers are now wondering if Melénchon might be poised for a stunning upset.

Unlikely as it sounds, it's certainly possible. In a post-Brexit, post-Trump era where populism is upending politics across the West, all bets are off.

Melénchon's surge is partly explained by French millennials and the French disgruntled with globalization: They like his outsider talk and his eloquent takedowns of his opponents during the two televised presidential debates.

I particularly like how they try to compare the rise of Melenchon with the rise of Trump.  I mean let's just nevermind that Trump's success was fueled mostly by xenophobia and racism while Melenchon's seems to be based on a more Sandersesque recognition of the current class war.

The writer shows his bias with:

Quote
Fears that the presidential election could come down to an unexpected run-off between the staunchly anti-EU Le Pen and the just-as-staunchly anti-EU Melénchon -- instead of between Le Pen and the centrist former banker Macron -- have caused markets to react negatively, with the euro already falling against the dollar and the yen in response.

Economists and business leaders, too, are reacting with alarm. "With the growing threat of euroskeptic parties destabilizing the eurozone's unity weighing heavily on sentiment, the euro may be in store for further punishment," Lukman Otunuga, a research analyst with FXTM, a foreign exchange brokerage firm, told ABC News last week.

Pro-EU is the "centrist" position.  Is it?  Or is it just the position accepted by the same people that brought us militant privatization, doubled-down austerity and the 2008 financial crisis?

We can't spook the upper-class with all this talk about actually doing something for the people being squeezed to death in our current system.  Why, that's reactionary!

Good luck in the elections Melenchon and god-speed.

lol.  ksen you are a good example of how thin a line there is between full bernouts and trumplorables and why so many Bernie voters voted for trump.

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #19
lol.  ksen you are a good example of how thin a line there is between full bernouts and trumplorables and why so many Bernie voters voted for trump.

Thank you. :hug:

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #20
Although I think the line between Bernout and Trumplorable isn't as thin as political realists like yourself think it is.

Yes, Bernouts and Trumplorables both think our current system is fucked but that's probably as far as it goes.  Trumplorables view the problem as not enough xenophobia, racism and nationalism with a sprinkling of not giving enough freedom to businesses whereas Bernouts see the problem as only one side being engaged in the ongoing class war.

IMO anyway.

But then I might be too close to see the similarities you see.

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #21
Okay so you're really missing the point here, ksen.

Does Melenchon put a relatively humane face on his immigration policy? Sure. But the issue, and the issue that needs to be addressed first and foremost, is that in most European countries there is not birthright citizenship and with the EU/Schengen, that's not been necessary for some people's entire lifetimes. When a huge amount of the workforce is living in countries other than their nationality, closing borders is going to destroy lives.

Furthermore, there's been massive, massive EU investment in infrastructure that belongs to the EU in general but is within French borders. For example, the LHC facilities in France were paid in part by taxes from other EU countries. Will EU workers still be allowed to seek employment at that facility? Will EU scientists be allowed to use it? Same goes for tons of other major EU infrastructure projects that have invested in French institutions and infrastructure. How does France pay for those? Or does France just run off with EU wealth and leave the Mediterranean holding the bill?

Finally, who living in France gets to keep living in France vs who gets the boot? Does France provide legal support for working class migrants from Eastern Europe and the Mediterranean to become French nationals? How about Roma? Or do those people get deported?

Finally, who does Melenchon make deals with in order to move forward with his political goals? Does he risk losing credibility with his supporters by making alliances with the center-left, or does he make the politically easy but morally bankrupt choice to ally with Le Pen to maintain credibility with anti-establishment and anti-EU supporters? We've seen time and again that leftist anti-establishment parties are willing to cut deals with the Right in order to avoid allying with unpopular center-left parties (e.g. the Lib-Dems allying with Cameron, Corbyn's Labour allying with May) so it's not unreasonable to worry that Melenchon might ally with Le Pen. If so, Frexit would be easy for Le Pen to force, but Le Pen could withhold her support for the humanitarian changes to nationality law and immigration reform (which would be complicated and difficut to resolve even with popular support) leading to a situation like the current one in the UK where there is no political will to ensure that foreign nationals living in the UK for decades will be able to stay.

I get it, people are mad at politics and mad that politicians are not doing enough to meet the expectations of their political base, but you're literally rooting for something that will tear apart families. "Smash the system lololol fuckkkk globalism" feels good but the people who are going to suffer here are not rich and will literally have their lives torn apart. Jesus christ, get over yourself.

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #22
Okay so you're really missing the point here, ksen.

:unsure:

Quote
Does Melenchon put a relatively humane face on his immigration policy? Sure. But the issue, and the issue that needs to be addressed first and foremost, is that in most European countries there is not birthright citizenship and with the EU/Schengen, that's not been necessary for some people's entire lifetimes. When a huge amount of the workforce is living in countries other than their nationality, closing borders is going to destroy lives.

Furthermore, there's been massive, massive EU investment in infrastructure that belongs to the EU in general but is within French borders. For example, the LHC facilities in France were paid in part by taxes from other EU countries. Will EU workers still be allowed to seek employment at that facility? Will EU scientists be allowed to use it? Same goes for tons of other major EU infrastructure projects that have invested in French institutions and infrastructure. How does France pay for those? Or does France just run off with EU wealth and leave the Mediterranean holding the bill?

Finally, who living in France gets to keep living in France vs who gets the boot? Does France provide legal support for working class migrants from Eastern Europe and the Mediterranean to become French nationals? How about Roma? Or do those people get deported?

Finally, who does Melenchon make deals with in order to move forward with his political goals? Does he risk losing credibility with his supporters by making alliances with the center-left, or does he make the politically easy but morally bankrupt choice to ally with Le Pen to maintain credibility with anti-establishment and anti-EU supporters? We've seen time and again that leftist anti-establishment parties are willing to cut deals with the Right in order to avoid allying with unpopular center-left parties (e.g. the Lib-Dems allying with Cameron, Corbyn's Labour allying with May) so it's not unreasonable to worry that Melenchon might ally with Le Pen. If so, Frexit would be easy for Le Pen to force, but Le Pen could withhold her support for the humanitarian changes to nationality law and immigration reform (which would be complicated and difficut to resolve even with popular support) leading to a situation like the current one in the UK where there is no political will to ensure that foreign nationals living in the UK for decades will be able to stay.

I get it, people are mad at politics and mad that politicians are not doing enough to meet the expectations of their political base, but you're literally rooting for something that will tear apart families. "Smash the system lololol fuckkkk globalism" feels good but the people who are going to suffer here are not rich and will literally have their lives torn apart. Jesus christ, get over yourself.

Because people haven't been suffering under the system currently in place that people are reacting too.

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #23
The libdems wouldn't have been able to form a government with Labour in 2010, even with the greens and the SNP they didn't have enough MPs. Conversely the Tories couldn't form a stable government on their own either.

We ended up with the libdems being punished for enabling the Tories, when its quite clear now they were holding the worst of it at bay.
Why do I bother?

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #24
Just as in the US, the people who want to smash the system aren't the ones who have been failed by the system. They are the people who have just not benefited from the system quite as much as they'd like. There is a major difference. In France, the UK, and the US, you have a lot of people who are not working because they can't find their dream job that pays them as much as they want, as opposed to because they can't find a job that will support them. This is really the epitome of privilege, and I could give a shit about their "suffering."