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Topic: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up (Read 666 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #25
The libdems wouldn't have been able to form a government with Labour in 2010, even with the greens and the SNP they didn't have enough MPs. Conversely the Tories couldn't form a stable government on their own either.

We ended up with the libdems being punished for enabling the Tories, when its quite clear now they were holding the worst of it at bay.

Had the libdems refused to enable the Tories, the Tories would not have won a majority in the subsequent election, and we wouldn't be seeing Corbyn as the useless leader of Labour.

The libdems made a strategic political choice that was utterly worthless because they were unwilling to make a difficult stand in support of the Labour party.

  • ksen
Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #26
Just as in the US, the people who want to smash the system aren't the ones who have been failed by the system. They are the people who have just not benefited from the system quite as much as they'd like. There is a major difference. In France, the UK, and the US, you have a lot of people who are not working because they can't find their dream job that pays them as much as they want, as opposed to because they can't find a job that will support them.

Got any data to back that up?

And how is the election of a Sanders or a Melenchon worse for people than the reelection of people like Macron that will continue the policies of dismantling social safety nets as a way of reassuring markets that they're serious people?

Sanders and Melenchon advocate policies that actually help the people you are concerned about.  Access to healthcare, access to education, immigrant friendly border policies, a sane tax policy, anti-war and higher wages for workers.

Yeah, just like Trump.  :v:

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #27
yes dismantling families and free movement to prove to "working class" social conservatives that you're serious is a step up, are you fucking kidding me

  • ksen
Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #28
yes dismantling families and free movement to prove to "working class" social conservatives that you're serious is a step up, are you fucking kidding me

Sanders and Melenchon have not advocated dismantling families or advocated policies that dismantle families.  In fact they've done the opposite.  Not that that matters since for whatever reason you are stuck in this conflation loop arguing that Sanders and Melenchon type politicians are just as bad as Trump and Le Pen.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #29
removing France from the EU seems like it has the possibility to fuck a lot of families up, though.

  • ksen
Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #30
removing France from the EU seems like it has the possibility to fuck a lot of families up, though.
It could if Le Pen got elected.

But if Melenchon won I don't think that's necessarily the case.  Especially since his immigration policies have a lot to say about keeping families together and in France if that's what they desire as well as making sure they have access to the country's social safety net.

So teeth agreeing with the comparison of Melenchon to Le Pen/Trump seems a bit ludicrous to me.

I mean it's not like the EU, and only the EU can be helpful to migrant families.  Nation-states not involved in a supra-national body still have the capacity to be migrant friendly.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #31
removing France from the EU seems like it has the possibility to fuck a lot of families up, though.

but but socialist

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #32
removing France from the EU seems like it has the possibility to fuck a lot of families up, though.
It could if Le Pen got elected.

But if Melenchon won I don't think that's necessarily the case.  Especially since his immigration policies have a lot to say about keeping families together and in France if that's what they desire as well as making sure they have access to the country's social safety net.

So teeth agreeing with the comparison of Melenchon to Le Pen/Trump seems a bit ludicrous to me.

I mean it's not like the EU, and only the EU can be helpful to migrant families.  Nation-states not involved in a supra-national body still have the capacity to be migrant friendly.

1. Melanchon will have to get his policies passed. He can't just enact them by fiat. He will have an easier time getting Frexit passed than getting the various protections on French non-national residents passed. Or educational reform. Or whatever. So basically he's going to end up being pressured from the far right by Le Pen, who will get Frexit, but will then have a harder time pushing through the positive/protective legislation. As a result, you're going to get maximum damage.

2. We're not talking about opening borders to temporary migrants. We're talking about people who have lived in these countries for decades, some of whom have no memory of other countries, and who do not have citizenship in their home countries because birthright citizenship is not the norm in much of Europe. Whether 5 years from now Melenchon can finally wrangle enough votes to allow some of these people back doesn't change the fact that you're really truly going to force people to leave their homes, lives, and possibly their families because citizenship has not caught up with the realities of residence in Schengen. What do people do when they're no longer allowed to work their jobs or live in their homes? Do they have to sell below market value to whichever buyer will take it off their hands? What do they do then? How do their children adapt to being relocated to a new country where they may not even speak the language?

Again, we know from the situation in the UK that right-wing anti-EU forces don't give a shit, and that left-wing anti-EU groups don't care enough to force the right-wingers to deliver a feasible plan that will protect the rights of foreign nationals and will not break up families. So again, until you prove to me Melenchon has a plan to actually accomplish this without destroying families, then fuck him and fuck his dumb fucking politics.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #33
sometimes I forget that ksen is white trash. threads like this make me remember.

  • ksen
Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #34
sometimes I forget that damian was right

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #35
damian stopped posting. will you?

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #36
The libdems wouldn't have been able to form a government with Labour in 2010, even with the greens and the SNP they didn't have enough MPs. Conversely the Tories couldn't form a stable government on their own either.

We ended up with the libdems being punished for enabling the Tories, when its quite clear now they were holding the worst of it at bay.

Had the libdems refused to enable the Tories, the Tories would not have won a majority in the subsequent election, and we wouldn't be seeing Corbyn as the useless leader of Labour.

The libdems made a strategic political choice that was utterly worthless because they were unwilling to make a difficult stand in support of the Labour party.
Actually they probably would. The tory government would have probably collapsed, and they'd have called a general election within a year, at which point none of the other parties would likely be in a position to contest one, so they'd have won, probably with just enough seats to form a majority, and we'd be further into Brexit.
Why do I bother?

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #37
sometimes I forget that ksen is white trash. threads like this make me remember.
That was definitely uncalled for.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #38
Just as in the US, the people who want to smash the system aren't the ones who have been failed by the system. They are the people who have just not benefited from the system quite as much as they'd like. There is a major difference. In France, the UK, and the US, you have a lot of people who are not working because they can't find their dream job that pays them as much as they want, as opposed to because they can't find a job that will support them. This is really the epitome of privilege, and I could give a shit about their "suffering."

True to some degree, but the thing is robotics and globalisation pretty much disenfranchises almost everyone. Even for the relatively privileged, the economic situation will make everyone have to retrain. Not once, but probably many times over their working lives. And that assumes everyone is capable of retraining.

And even when people are employed, it will be more and more about part-time and casualisation. So fewer and fewer people will be able to own their own home, and so have less of a stake in what goes on.

The poor will get poorer as income and wealth distribution becomes even more obscenely unjust.

Transnational corporations will pay even less tax [if any] than they do now, to the detriment of common people, small corporations and businesses, and even States. Globalisation, as it is currently practised, will kill free enterprise, human rights, the sovereign rights of states, democracy and the environment.

People go on about new economies, and it is true, it will help a bit. new jobs will be created, but not enough  to replace those lost. New economies may be more environmentally friendly and productive, and that will help too. But not enough. Automation and robotics is destroying far more jobs than they create.

And I think you are missing the point. Yes, it is true that globalisation and automation are starting to affect some of the privileged. But that totally misses the point because almost everyone is in serious shit. [ People {except the very rich}, corporations at national or regional level], and all governments].

Clauses in free trade agreements deliberately trump the sovereignty of governments, because any social or environmental protections that cause loss of profits will incur fines, which governments will have to pay from taxes raised from smaller corporations and wage earners. The trend to privatisation has also robbed sovereign power of governments, with prisons, defence forces, police etc, being run by corporations.

The warning signs from history are clear. The classic case of the British East India Company and similar European transnationals. They almost became a law unto themselves, literally making law and regulations, having their own navies and armies, and generally making hell of colonial assets, which caused much of the trouble we see today. The E.I.C. DIRECTLY CAUSED mass starvations in India, which prompted even the most hardened British politicians to start reigning in the E.I.C.'s powers, and eventually, to dissolve the company.

But how can that sort of thing be done now? You would have to get the complete agreement and total support of over 200 national governments and a shit load of sub-national governments to agree to reign in the power of the global transnationals, and do it in such a way as to prevent complete financial and economic chaos. IMHO, it can't be done. It is too damn hard, and the populations of the world are so trumped and twittered they can't see straight.



.





 
Believer in High Powers, and naturally, logarithms.
Pikkiwoki is the one true god.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #39
The libdems wouldn't have been able to form a government with Labour in 2010, even with the greens and the SNP they didn't have enough MPs. Conversely the Tories couldn't form a stable government on their own either.

We ended up with the libdems being punished for enabling the Tories, when its quite clear now they were holding the worst of it at bay.

Had the libdems refused to enable the Tories, the Tories would not have won a majority in the subsequent election, and we wouldn't be seeing Corbyn as the useless leader of Labour.

The libdems made a strategic political choice that was utterly worthless because they were unwilling to make a difficult stand in support of the Labour party.
Actually they probably would. The tory government would have probably collapsed, and they'd have called a general election within a year, at which point none of the other parties would likely be in a position to contest one, so they'd have won, probably with just enough seats to form a majority, and we'd be further into Brexit.
That's what's always struck me as bullshit about being able to call an election whenever you want, that you can just pick a really favorable time for yourself, but maybe that's just because I'm use to our terrible American system

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #40
Just as in the US, the people who want to smash the system aren't the ones who have been failed by the system.
this does not in fact match my personal ~lived experience~ of interacting with "people who want to smash the system" in the US fyi

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #41
sometimes I forget that damian was right
i'm pretty sure damian would agree with teeth's " In France, the UK, and the US, you have a lot of people who are not working because they can't find their dream job that pays them as much as they want, as opposed to because they can't find a job that will support them" bit as long as he specified that he was talking about millenials tho

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #42
Unemployment in the US is pretty low right now  :dunno:

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #43
Unemployment in the US is pretty low right now  :dunno:

FAKE NEWS

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #44
Just as in the US, the people who want to smash the system aren't the ones who have been failed by the system.
this does not in fact match my personal ~lived experience~ of interacting with "people who want to smash the system" in the US fyi

I'm talking about the overall demographics of who voted for Trump or Sanders vs who voted for Clinton. In addition, my personal lived experience is that the people who supported Sanders over Clinton were largely in relatively stable economic position regardless of what happened.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #45
i am a little suspicious of using "voted for sanders" as a proxy for "wants to smash the system" tbh

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #46
sometimes I forget that damian was right
i'm pretty sure damian would agree with teeth's " In France, the UK, and the US, you have a lot of people who are not working because they can't find their dream job that pays them as much as they want, as opposed to because they can't find a job that will support them" bit as long as he specified that he was talking about millenials tho

The issue isn't the urban millenial population that all the shitty thinkpieces are written about. We did all get pretty badly fucked in the 2008-2012 interval, and that's not really any of our faults. But the rural and suburban white population is really unwilling to retrain for the currently available jobs and are unwilling to work service jobs that pay less than they think they're worth. Similarly these people are unwilling to participate in unions because they think unions are going to force them to work for less and that employers will recognize their inherent value. Some of these people really truly have never entered the workforce at all and have not even sought out short term technical training in trades, so its kind of funny in a sad way that they're being referred to as the white working class.

  • ksen
Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #47
I am a little suspicious of calling students being crushed by debt as being in a "relatively stable economic position."

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #48
i am a little suspicious of using "voted for sanders" as a proxy for "wants to smash the system" tbh

We're talking about vague attitudes at the voting box, not long-term activism and organization. There won't be nuance here.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #49
I am a little suspicious of calling students being crushed by debt as being in a "relatively stable economic position."

The solution to student debt is debt forgiveness programs and viewing things like science, arts, and infrastructure funding as public works projects.

The solution is not to dismantle the free movement guarantees that have taken decades to establish and the peace that this has afforded us.