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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #50
i am a little suspicious of using "voted for sanders" as a proxy for "wants to smash the system" tbh

We're talking about vague attitudes at the voting box, not long-term activism and organization. There won't be nuance here.
ah, so we're talking out of our asses, gotcha.

fwiw, "voted for trump" is also a pretty bad proxy for "wants to smash the system"

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #51
Just as in the US, the people who want to smash the system aren't the ones who have been failed by the system. They are the people who have just not benefited from the system quite as much as they'd like. There is a major difference. In France, the UK, and the US, you have a lot of people who are not working because they can't find their dream job that pays them as much as they want, as opposed to because they can't find a job that will support them. This is really the epitome of privilege, and I could give a shit about their "suffering."

True to some degree, but the thing is robotics and globalisation pretty much disenfranchises almost everyone. Even for the relatively privileged, the economic situation will make everyone have to retrain. Not once, but probably many times over their working lives. And that assumes everyone is capable of retraining.

And even when people are employed, it will be more and more about part-time and casualisation. So fewer and fewer people will be able to own their own home, and so have less of a stake in what goes on.

The poor will get poorer as income and wealth distribution becomes even more obscenely unjust.

Transnational corporations will pay even less tax [if any] than they do now, to the detriment of common people, small corporations and businesses, and even States. Globalisation, as it is currently practised, will kill free enterprise, human rights, the sovereign rights of states, democracy and the environment.

People go on about new economies, and it is true, it will help a bit. new jobs will be created, but not enough  to replace those lost. New economies may be more environmentally friendly and productive, and that will help too. But not enough. Automation and robotics is destroying far more jobs than they create.

And I think you are missing the point. Yes, it is true that globalisation and automation are starting to affect some of the privileged. But that totally misses the point because almost everyone is in serious shit. [ People {except the very rich}, corporations at national or regional level], and all governments].

Clauses in free trade agreements deliberately trump the sovereignty of governments, because any social or environmental protections that cause loss of profits will incur fines, which governments will have to pay from taxes raised from smaller corporations and wage earners. The trend to privatisation has also robbed sovereign power of governments, with prisons, defence forces, police etc, being run by corporations.

The warning signs from history are clear. The classic case of the British East India Company and similar European transnationals. They almost became a law unto themselves, literally making law and regulations, having their own navies and armies, and generally making hell of colonial assets, which caused much of the trouble we see today. The E.I.C. DIRECTLY CAUSED mass starvations in India, which prompted even the most hardened British politicians to start reigning in the E.I.C.'s powers, and eventually, to dissolve the company.

But how can that sort of thing be done now? You would have to get the complete agreement and total support of over 200 national governments and a shit load of sub-national governments to agree to reign in the power of the global transnationals, and do it in such a way as to prevent complete financial and economic chaos. IMHO, it can't be done. It is too damn hard, and the populations of the world are so trumped and twittered they can't see straight.



.





 

I hear the Nazis did great things for employment in Germany.

Embracing social regressivism and destroying families is not the way to fix unemployment, which is frankly not incredibly high in France, the UK, or the US. Furthermore, yes, people will need to retrain and retrain throughout their working lives. That's normal. That's not related to unemployment per se; it is also related to the nature of jobs themselves. Even if you keep the same position your entire life, you will need to retrain because things change and are changing faster. That's why a lot of positions offer and/or expect regular training and career development by their employees. Furthermore, if you want to change positions within a place of employment (e.g. upward movement) you will need to train as well. This is not the end of the world, but people need to get used to the fact that things change.

If westerners can't adapt to change and reject change because they're too fucking scared of losing their perfect idyllic 1950s world, then they're going to get steamrolled by parts of the world that do adapt, and they'll both lose their livelihoods AND their ability to lead global decision-making.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #52
i am a little suspicious of using "voted for sanders" as a proxy for "wants to smash the system" tbh

We're talking about vague attitudes at the voting box, not long-term activism and organization. There won't be nuance here.
ah, so we're talking out of our asses, gotcha.

fwiw, "voted for trump" is also a pretty bad proxy for "wants to smash the system"

No, we're talking about the appeal of populist anti-status-quo candidates in general, in and outside the US. This is Albertans who voted for NDP as a "fuck you" to the tories and then immediaely turned on the NDP for being "socialists." This is mainstream Americans voting for Sanders or Trump over establishment candidates. This is UKIP and Brexit landing major wins. This is Italians saying "well, fuck, I'm voting M5S because corruption is the biggest problem and we just need to get rid of the establishment" even after it turns out Raggi is deeply entrenched in all sorts of corruption. Trudeau used this in the Canadian elections a few years ago when he landed votes out west in part because people were done with Harper and in part because people liked his promises of electoral reform, and O'Leary will use this to challenge Trudeau and may likely succeed if Trudeau doesn't start turning the economy around soon. And so on and so forth.

People involved in grassroots political organization may be smart and may actually be targeting shitty government policies that harm people, but the general voting public acts on gut feeling, and this new wave of populism is all about marketing and not at all about policies that will fix the problem.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #53
i am a little suspicious of using "voted for sanders" as a proxy for "wants to smash the system" tbh

We're talking about vague attitudes at the voting box, not long-term activism and organization. There won't be nuance here.
ah, so we're talking out of our asses, gotcha.

fwiw, "voted for trump" is also a pretty bad proxy for "wants to smash the system"

No, we're talking about the appeal of populist anti-status-quo candidates in general, in and outside the US. This is Albertans who voted for NDP as a "fuck you" to the tories and then immediaely turned on the NDP for being "socialists." This is mainstream Americans voting for Sanders or Trump over establishment candidates. This is UKIP and Brexit landing major wins. This is Italians saying "well, fuck, I'm voting M5S because corruption is the biggest problem and we just need to get rid of the establishment" even after it turns out Raggi is deeply entrenched in all sorts of corruption. Trudeau used this in the Canadian elections a few years ago when he landed votes out west in part because people were done with Harper and in part because people liked his promises of electoral reform, and O'Leary will use this to challenge Trudeau and may likely succeed if Trudeau doesn't start turning the economy around soon. And so on and so forth.

People involved in grassroots political organization may be smart and may actually be targeting shitty government policies that harm people, but the general voting public acts on gut feeling, and this new wave of populism is all about marketing and not at all about policies that will fix the problem.
didn't read

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #54
yes you did

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #55
sometimes I forget that damian was right
i'm pretty sure damian would agree with teeth's " In France, the UK, and the US, you have a lot of people who are not working because they can't find their dream job that pays them as much as they want, as opposed to because they can't find a job that will support them" bit as long as he specified that he was talking about millenials tho

The issue isn't the urban millenial population that all the shitty thinkpieces are written about. We did all get pretty badly fucked in the 2008-2012 interval, and that's not really any of our faults. But the rural and suburban white population is really unwilling to retrain for the currently available jobs and are unwilling to work service jobs that pay less than they think they're worth. Similarly these people are unwilling to participate in unions because they think unions are going to force them to work for less and that employers will recognize their inherent value. Some of these people really truly have never entered the workforce at all and have not even sought out short term technical training in trades, so its kind of funny in a sad way that they're being referred to as the white working class.
this sounds like a stereotype in the worst use of the word.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • ksen
Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #56
Embracing social regressivism and destroying families is not the way to fix unemployment, which is frankly not incredibly high in France, the UK, or the US.

Unemployment in France is over 10%.

As a budding scientist shouldn't you at least pretend to care about getting your facts straight?

  • ksen
Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #57
People involved in grassroots political organization may be smart and may actually be targeting shitty government policies that harm people, but the general voting public acts on gut feeling, and this new wave of populism is all about marketing and not at all about policies that will fix the problem.

You know, it's fine when you're just embarassing yourself.  But now you're making me feel embarassed on your behalf.

Knock it off.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #58
New and refreshing Bernie Lite! Same great Bernie taste with half of the calories!

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #59
Embracing social regressivism and destroying families is not the way to fix unemployment, which is frankly not incredibly high in France, the UK, or the US.

Unemployment in France is over 10%.

As a budding scientist shouldn't you at least pretend to care about getting your facts straight?

10% is substantially less than, say, Italy or Spain, and it's not concentrated among young people in France the way it is in those countries. Youth unemployment in France is ~23%, which is more or less the average over the past 30 years. Italy has a youth unemployment rate in the range of 35% and Spain's is close to 45%, despite huge percentages of Italian and Spanish young people going abroad for work. This is not an issue for the French. UK youth unemployment rate is down at ~10%.

Furthermore, French unemployment is not concentrated among white French. It is concentrated among the increasingly ghettoized French minority groups, particularly French of North African and Sub-Saharan African descent. The ghettoization and lack of services to these communities is probably the main driver for French unemployment rates, not systemic collapse of hiring as in Italy or Spain.

Closing borders won't fix that. Closing borders serves one purpose and one purpose only, and that is to keep out migrants and to play on fears that France is not French enough with all these other people coming in and bringing their own culture.

Seriously, this is a really shallow economic mask on some really fetid hate politics.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #60
sometimes I forget that damian was right
i'm pretty sure damian would agree with teeth's " In France, the UK, and the US, you have a lot of people who are not working because they can't find their dream job that pays them as much as they want, as opposed to because they can't find a job that will support them" bit as long as he specified that he was talking about millenials tho

The issue isn't the urban millenial population that all the shitty thinkpieces are written about. We did all get pretty badly fucked in the 2008-2012 interval, and that's not really any of our faults. But the rural and suburban white population is really unwilling to retrain for the currently available jobs and are unwilling to work service jobs that pay less than they think they're worth. Similarly these people are unwilling to participate in unions because they think unions are going to force them to work for less and that employers will recognize their inherent value. Some of these people really truly have never entered the workforce at all and have not even sought out short term technical training in trades, so its kind of funny in a sad way that they're being referred to as the white working class.
this sounds like a stereotype in the worst use of the word.

sounds like I stopped giving a shit about the poor white working class when they threatened to use borders to tear apart my family and my friends' families.

  • ksen
Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #61
10% is substantially less than, say, Italy or Spain,

And it's substantially more than the UK and the US . . . you know, the countries you used along with France to say unemployment wasn't so bad?

Quote
and it's not concentrated among young people in France the way it is in those countries. Youth unemployment in France is ~23%, which is more or less the average over the past 30 years. Italy has a youth unemployment rate in the range of 35% and Spain's is close to 45%, despite huge percentages of Italian and Spanish young people going abroad for work. This is not an issue for the French. UK youth unemployment rate is down at ~10%.

Furthermore, French unemployment is not concentrated among white French. It is concentrated among the increasingly ghettoized French minority groups, particularly French of North African and Sub-Saharan African descent. The ghettoization and lack of services to these communities is probably the main driver for French unemployment rates, not systemic collapse of hiring as in Italy or Spain.

Closing borders won't fix that. Closing borders serves one purpose and one purpose only, and that is to keep out migrants and to play on fears that France is not French enough with all these other people coming in and bringing their own culture.

Seriously, this is a really shallow economic mask on some really fetid hate politics.

You have lost your fucking mind if you think Establishment politicians are better in this area than a Melenchon or Sanders.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #62
yes I have clearly lost my mind when I say that fearmongering about immigrants takin' jobs and trying to close borders is worse than people who are trying to stabilize the situation without destroying families.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #63
sometimes I forget that damian was right
i'm pretty sure damian would agree with teeth's " In France, the UK, and the US, you have a lot of people who are not working because they can't find their dream job that pays them as much as they want, as opposed to because they can't find a job that will support them" bit as long as he specified that he was talking about millenials tho

The issue isn't the urban millenial population that all the shitty thinkpieces are written about. We did all get pretty badly fucked in the 2008-2012 interval, and that's not really any of our faults. But the rural and suburban white population is really unwilling to retrain for the currently available jobs and are unwilling to work service jobs that pay less than they think they're worth. Similarly these people are unwilling to participate in unions because they think unions are going to force them to work for less and that employers will recognize their inherent value. Some of these people really truly have never entered the workforce at all and have not even sought out short term technical training in trades, so its kind of funny in a sad way that they're being referred to as the white working class.
this sounds like a stereotype in the worst use of the word.

sounds like I stopped giving a shit about the poor white working class when they threatened to use borders to tear apart my family and my friends' families.
So, you've decided to double down?
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #64
Ksen, I'm the grandson of two people who had to illegally cross borders in order to escape a regime that sold racial hated under the guise of nationalist-oriented socialism that would bring back jobs for hardworking, deserving citizens.

Members of my family carry something like six or seven different passports as their primary nationality and a number are currently working on immigrant work permits.

You are not going to convince me that closing borders and encouraging self-deportation of foreign nationals in order to ensure that citizens have ready access to good jobs is the right choice. You just aren't.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #65
sometimes I forget that damian was right
i'm pretty sure damian would agree with teeth's " In France, the UK, and the US, you have a lot of people who are not working because they can't find their dream job that pays them as much as they want, as opposed to because they can't find a job that will support them" bit as long as he specified that he was talking about millenials tho

The issue isn't the urban millenial population that all the shitty thinkpieces are written about. We did all get pretty badly fucked in the 2008-2012 interval, and that's not really any of our faults. But the rural and suburban white population is really unwilling to retrain for the currently available jobs and are unwilling to work service jobs that pay less than they think they're worth. Similarly these people are unwilling to participate in unions because they think unions are going to force them to work for less and that employers will recognize their inherent value. Some of these people really truly have never entered the workforce at all and have not even sought out short term technical training in trades, so its kind of funny in a sad way that they're being referred to as the white working class.
this sounds like a stereotype in the worst use of the word.

sounds like I stopped giving a shit about the poor white working class when they threatened to use borders to tear apart my family and my friends' families.
So, you've decided to double down?

no, I've decided that you can get fucked.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #66
Ksen, I'm the grandson of two people who had to illegally cross borders in order to escape a regime that sold racial hated under the guise of nationalist-oriented socialism that would bring back jobs for hardworking, deserving citizens.

Members of my family carry something like six or seven different passports as their primary nationality and a number are currently working on immigrant work permits.

You are not going to convince me that closing borders and encouraging self-deportation of foreign nationals in order to ensure that citizens have ready access to good jobs is the right choice. You just aren't.
is that what he's trying to convince you of?
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • ksen
Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #67
yes I have clearly lost my mind when I say that fearmongering about immigrants takin' jobs and trying to close borders is worse than people who are trying to stabilize the situation without destroying families.
And you're maintaining that politicians like Sanders and Melenchon are doing this fearmongering while establishment politicians are the ones trying to make life better for immigrants and their families?  Even as they pursue such policies as severe austerity, decimating social safety nets and worker protections?

  • ksen
Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #68
Ksen, I'm the grandson of two people who had to illegally cross borders in order to escape a regime that sold racial hated under the guise of nationalist-oriented socialism that would bring back jobs for hardworking, deserving citizens.

Members of my family carry something like six or seven different passports as their primary nationality and a number are currently working on immigrant work permits.

You are not going to convince me that closing borders and encouraging self-deportation of foreign nationals in order to ensure that citizens have ready access to good jobs is the right choice. You just aren't.
That's a good thing since I'm not trying to convince you of it.  I'm trying to convince that lumping politicians like Sanders and Melenchon in with Le Pen and Trump is stupid and self-defeating since they are pro-immigrant.  Much more so than Establishment politicians.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #69
sometimes I forget that damian was right
i'm pretty sure damian would agree with teeth's " In France, the UK, and the US, you have a lot of people who are not working because they can't find their dream job that pays them as much as they want, as opposed to because they can't find a job that will support them" bit as long as he specified that he was talking about millenials tho

The issue isn't the urban millenial population that all the shitty thinkpieces are written about. We did all get pretty badly fucked in the 2008-2012 interval, and that's not really any of our faults. But the rural and suburban white population is really unwilling to retrain for the currently available jobs and are unwilling to work service jobs that pay less than they think they're worth. Similarly these people are unwilling to participate in unions because they think unions are going to force them to work for less and that employers will recognize their inherent value. Some of these people really truly have never entered the workforce at all and have not even sought out short term technical training in trades, so its kind of funny in a sad way that they're being referred to as the white working class.
this sounds like a stereotype in the worst use of the word.

sounds like I stopped giving a shit about the poor white working class when they threatened to use borders to tear apart my family and my friends' families.
So, you've decided to double down?

no, I've decided that you can get fucked.
So, along with deciding I can get fucked, you have also decided that the poor white working class is a homogeneous unit? I'm not sure I agree with that. But moreover, I think that not explicitly including their interests at the table where policy is made will lead to things like Trump. I think that if the government starts to close itself off, to become an elite echo chamber, the repercussions will be worse when we tell them to get fucked. You seem to have constructed a black and white world where including them at the table and representing their interests is identical to enacting xenophobic policies and caving to the Bundys. I disagree fundamentally with that assessment and I also think that your ideas sound suspiciously like a meritocracy which excludes the ignorant and poor from the benefits of society.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #70
teeth gonna teeth

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #71
sometimes I forget that damian was right
i'm pretty sure damian would agree with teeth's " In France, the UK, and the US, you have a lot of people who are not working because they can't find their dream job that pays them as much as they want, as opposed to because they can't find a job that will support them" bit as long as he specified that he was talking about millenials tho

The issue isn't the urban millenial population that all the shitty thinkpieces are written about. We did all get pretty badly fucked in the 2008-2012 interval, and that's not really any of our faults. But the rural and suburban white population is really unwilling to retrain for the currently available jobs and are unwilling to work service jobs that pay less than they think they're worth. Similarly these people are unwilling to participate in unions because they think unions are going to force them to work for less and that employers will recognize their inherent value. Some of these people really truly have never entered the workforce at all and have not even sought out short term technical training in trades, so its kind of funny in a sad way that they're being referred to as the white working class.
this sounds like a stereotype in the worst use of the word.

sounds like I stopped giving a shit about the poor white working class when they threatened to use borders to tear apart my family and my friends' families.
So, you've decided to double down?

no, I've decided that you can get fucked.
So, along with deciding I can get fucked, you have also decided that the poor white working class is a homogeneous unit? I'm not sure I agree with that. But moreover, I think that not explicitly including their interests at the table where policy is made will lead to things like Trump. I think that if the government starts to close itself off, to become an elite echo chamber, the repercussions will be worse when we tell them to get fucked. You seem to have constructed a black and white world where including them at the table and representing their interests is identical to enacting xenophobic policies and caving to the Bundys. I disagree fundamentally with that assessment and I also think that your ideas sound suspiciously like a meritocracy which excludes the ignorant and poor from the benefits of society.

The "elites" have not been "closed off" because these rural assholes have had a very, very powerful voice in politics since forever. Again, actually look at patterns of redistribution of taxed wealth in the US, look at the structure of the military as a job training and work placement service for white America (and how distribution of services to white vets differ compared to distribution of services to nonwhite vets), the structure of the prison-industrial complex as a huge jobs program for conservative rural communities, the numerous protections afforded rural farmers etc through taxpayer-backed farm insurance, massive restructuring of estate tax to protect children of farmers from paying taxes on inherited estates, and disproportionate representation both federally and at the state level.

Again, I am not at all convinced that rural and suburban white people of any class are underrepresented at the federal level. In fact, this election proves beyond a reasonable doubt that they are overrepresented, given that 3 million more voters preferred Clinton but we still have the white supremacist.

The issue really is that white rural and suburban Americans are unwilling to share the table with anyone else. They've always had a disproportionate share of the table and now they're afraid they might lose that, so they're taking it all back.

And no I don't think Sanders is a Nazi or is willing to work with Nazis to accomplish modest domestic goals. I don't really know about Melenchon but having watched Corbyn gleefully work with the Brexiteers to destroy the lives of many, many people in the UK (including good friends of mine), I have no faith in "socialists" who want to close borders. I don't trust them to cut deals with the devil.

In other words, no, there is no assurance at all that Melechon will not form an alliance with Front National in order to close borders and then subsequently will allow FN to block humanitarian exceptions or will be unable to fight those. Again, this process is one which absolutely requires that all the conditions be approved BEFORE moving forward on exit status, because politicians can and will block those conditions afterwards, as we've already seen in the UK.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #72
Teeth, all I see you saying is that you see a convenient group to blame for the series of unfortunate events that have overtaken the West in the past few years. I guess it's good to know what you don't want but if you are saying that the establishment of the post (Bill) Clinton era basically had it about right then I present Donald Trump and Nigel Farage as exhibit a and b refutations to that assertion. Also this:
https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/americas-divided-recovery/

And see Steiglitz and Picketty.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #73
Also, as far as American farm policy, see "food Inc."
Or just Google monstanto lobbying efforts.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #74
Teeth, all I see you saying is that you see a convenient group to blame for the series of unfortunate events that have overtaken the West in the past few years. I guess it's good to know what you don't want but if you are saying that the establishment of the post (Bill) Clinton era basically had it about right then I present Donald Trump and Nigel Farage as exhibit a and b refutations to that assertion. Also this:
https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/americas-divided-recovery/

And see Steiglitz and Picketty.

Literally every serious study of both Brexit and Trump have shown that while individual reasons for voting for these abominations have been varied, the biggest predictor of voting for either has been racial resentment by whites against minorities. Whether that means that underlying bias within communities has driven social contagion of fake news or whatever is irrelevant; the biggest predictor really is racism.

So yes, blaming racists for voting for racists who will enact stated racist policies is reasonable. Hiding from that fact or excusing it is not really part of the menu. Saying "well we can get some socialist-style concessions to white labor from the fascists so let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater" is basically what the Nazis rose to power on. Sorry, but I don't accept that.