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Topic: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up (Read 665 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #75
Also, as far as American farm policy, see "food Inc."
Or just Google monstanto lobbying efforts.

Honestly at this point I'm pretty strongly pro-Monsanto and I could give a shit about the pseudo-environmentalist narrative that accuses Monsanto of being the devil. Meanwhile, I'm increasingly convinced that small legacy family farms in the US are more or less garbage.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #76
Teeth, all I see you saying is that you see a convenient group to blame for the series of unfortunate events that have overtaken the West in the past few years. I guess it's good to know what you don't want but if you are saying that the establishment of the post (Bill) Clinton era basically had it about right then I present Donald Trump and Nigel Farage as exhibit a and b refutations to that assertion. Also this:
https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/americas-divided-recovery/

And see Steiglitz and Picketty.

Literally every serious study of both Brexit and Trump have shown that while individual reasons for voting for these abominations have been varied, the biggest predictor of voting for either has been racial resentment by whites against minorities. Whether that means that underlying bias within communities has driven social contagion of fake news or whatever is irrelevant; the biggest predictor really is racism.

So yes, blaming racists for voting for racists who will enact stated racist policies is reasonable. Hiding from that fact or excusing it is not really part of the menu. Saying "well we can get some socialist-style concessions to white labor from the fascists so let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater" is basically what the Nazis rose to power on. Sorry, but I don't accept that.
So, what do you advocate for addressing the problem as you see it?
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #77
Also, as far as American farm policy, see "food Inc."
Or just Google monstanto lobbying efforts.

Honestly at this point I'm pretty strongly pro-Monsanto and I could give a shit about the pseudo-environmentalist narrative that accuses Monsanto of being the devil. Meanwhile, I'm increasingly convinced that small legacy family farms in the US are more or less garbage.
Oic. Well then, we pretty dramatically disagree about fundamental issues.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • ksen
Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #78
Man, first Ty and now teeth.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #79
Also, as far as American farm policy, see "food Inc."
Or just Google monstanto lobbying efforts.

Honestly at this point I'm pretty strongly pro-Monsanto and I could give a shit about the pseudo-environmentalist narrative that accuses Monsanto of being the devil. Meanwhile, I'm increasingly convinced that small legacy family farms in the US are more or less garbage.

Monsanto is garbage for the same reasons that a lot of corporations are garbage.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #80
Ayup
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #81
Teeth, all I see you saying is that you see a convenient group to blame for the series of unfortunate events that have overtaken the West in the past few years. I guess it's good to know what you don't want but if you are saying that the establishment of the post (Bill) Clinton era basically had it about right then I present Donald Trump and Nigel Farage as exhibit a and b refutations to that assertion. Also this:
https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/americas-divided-recovery/

And see Steiglitz and Picketty.

Literally every serious study of both Brexit and Trump have shown that while individual reasons for voting for these abominations have been varied, the biggest predictor of voting for either has been racial resentment by whites against minorities. Whether that means that underlying bias within communities has driven social contagion of fake news or whatever is irrelevant; the biggest predictor really is racism.

So yes, blaming racists for voting for racists who will enact stated racist policies is reasonable. Hiding from that fact or excusing it is not really part of the menu. Saying "well we can get some socialist-style concessions to white labor from the fascists so let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater" is basically what the Nazis rose to power on. Sorry, but I don't accept that.
So, what do you advocate for addressing the problem as you see it?

killing all white people.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #82
Start with the Irish. Amirite?
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #83
Also, as far as American farm policy, see "food Inc."
Or just Google monstanto lobbying efforts.

Honestly at this point I'm pretty strongly pro-Monsanto and I could give a shit about the pseudo-environmentalist narrative that accuses Monsanto of being the devil. Meanwhile, I'm increasingly convinced that small legacy family farms in the US are more or less garbage.

Monsanto is garbage for the same reasons that a lot of corporations are garbage.

Sure. But Monsanto is not itself responsible for the downfall of local plant cultivars, nor is Monsanto to blame for the absence of a well-developed cheap local "artisan" food production in the US. Monsanto does mass production of food and mass distribution of seed stock better than small farmers, but small farmers in the US have been massively in favor of centralized seed stock and elimination of foodstock diversity since the 40s if not earlier. Blaming Monsanto for this is missing the point.

Furthermore, I know everyone hates giant corporations, but the plus side about large farming corporations is that you can actually target them with organized labor actions. It's really difficult to organize a UFW-style strike against a bunch of small distributed "family farms" even if these farms are essentially all contractors who manage their individual farms for the factory food industry. "Small family farms" essentially then become a tool to bust union labor.

So yeah, no, I deeply and fundamentally disagree with Testy, even if I trivially agree that Monsanto does some bad shit.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #84
Start with the Irish. Amirite?

Let's start with ur posts.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #85
Anyways, this gets at one of the enduring bullshit arguments of some of the dumber elements of the left, which is the idea that there is some sort of corporate conspiracy to undermine ecologically sound living. Frankly, a lot of the "Monsanto is destroying our farms and our foooood" bullshit comes from the same wellspring as "ford secretly bought up a perpetual motion machine in the 60s and hid the plans to protect the oil industry" and all that other dumb conspiracy bullshit. Monsanto is far more transparent about their corporate strategies than a lot of other industries and a lot of their products really are responses to genuine need. You can disagree with their fundamental philosophy towards food production but the idea that they are what's fucking up North American food production is nonsense. The reason for that is things like the overall distribution of human habitation in North America, the overall size of farms in North America, the power of farmers' associations to pressure farmers into participating in monoculture, and so on.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #86
Jesus Christ teeth. No. But it's interesting what part of the market you are using to define the whole thing.

Anyway, interesting discussion but too complicated for a phone so I'll have to get back to this. In short though, the better solution to what farmers call the Monsanto circle is not to industrialize the rest of the farmland that isn't  currently industrialized efficiently enough.

Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #87
Also, farmers associations are not all based on the ones you've modeled your stereo archetype on.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #88
#notallfarmers

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #89
I don't think you quite have the hang of the notall hashtag.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #90
I am a little suspicious of calling students being crushed by debt as being in a "relatively stable economic position."

The solution to student debt is debt forgiveness programs and viewing things like science, arts, and infrastructure funding as public works projects.
The solution is not to dismantle the free movement guarantees that have taken decades to establish and the peace that this has afforded us.

Most people aren't really interested in the sciences and the arts. They are:
1. Too poor, and focused on survival and providing for their families.
2. To insecure about their futures.
3. Under-represented in elections, or ignored while governments are in office, and feel disenfranchised.
4. Relatively well-off, and are pathologically materialistic.
5. Lack education, or quality education, especially with respect to critical thinking with no sacred cows. 
6. Dulled by the offerings by mass media, like "reality TV", the "sound byte", twitter --instant info, often of dubious quality and don't have the skills to parse reality from trash.
7. Dulled by the addiction to religions.
8. Were specially privileged, now they are not [so much] eg. white males.
9. Tied up in religious, cultural or ethic tensions or conflicts.
Believer in High Powers, and naturally, logarithms.
Pikkiwoki is the one true god.

Re: And this is why you'll never see American presidential debates opened up
Reply #91
Part of viewing science, arts, and infrastructure funding is providing training for people to do the science, art, and infrastructure. It's all very well saying here is some money to get earwigs to make chutney or whatever, but it's not going to get done if you don't have a pool of labour you can choose from. By investing money in science, arts, infrastructure, and education to support that you should deal with 2 and 5 on your list, and a bunch of cases of 1 as well.
Why do I bother?