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Topic: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World) (Read 210384 times) previous topic - next topic

VoxRat (+ 1 Hidden) and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.
  • Zombies!
  • These violent delights have violent ends.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39425
I'm beginning to suspect Hawkins's google-fu is less awesome than he imagines it is.  :unsure:
And his integrity too.
I really should call your department head and tell him or her how badly you are behaving while posing as a credentialed professional scientist.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39426
Quote
But I'm not sure if anyone here cares about this interesting scientific stuff

Quote
I don't bother reading such studies because they don't pertain to what I'm doing.
this would make sense to you if you could get it through your thick skull that the great science going on these days is not in the mainstream. It's happening on Little Farms here and there and once in awhile there's someone with a Ph.D like Elaine Ingham that gets her head screwed on straight and helps out.
:rofl:    How different do you think Ingham's take on soil science is from the USDA's ?
Quite different.  I just Googled "USDA soil" and got nothing remotely close to the stuff Elaine Ingham is talking about.
Oh really?
What is the first hit you get when you search "USDA soil primer" ?



Or go with "USDA soil", open the first hit and select "soil health" from the menu on their home page. Read the first two paragraphs.
Then click on the link immediately below those two paragraphs!
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Fenrir
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39427
Home tooled.
It's what plants crave.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39428
Dave, inorganic fertilisers usually contain NPK. Please learn what"organic" and "inorganic" mean in this context.

Also Dave, rainforests have all the NPK, etc they need because they're continually cycling it through the system. NPK doesn't build up because its being continually taken up by he plants. If they didn't the rainfall would peach it away. Which is what happens when you remove the rainforest plants and replace them with pasture.

The vast majority of all nutrients in the rainforest at any one time is in the living biomass. Your idiot idea removes half of that biomass. When you replace rainforest plants with non-rainforest plants what do you think is going to happen to the symbiotic soil microflora?

IOW, not everywhere is Missouri. Look at the soil profiles Dave. Look. Read. Learn the basics before haring off after your latest guru, and misunderstanding what they say, and the context un which they're saying it.
Why do I bother?

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39429
Quote
But I'm not sure if anyone here cares about this interesting scientific stuff

Quote
I don't bother reading such studies because they don't pertain to what I'm doing.
this would make sense to you if you could get it through your thick skull that the great science going on these days is not in the mainstream. It's happening on Little Farms here and there and once in awhile there's someone with a Ph.D like Elaine Ingham that gets her head screwed on straight and helps out.
:rofl:    How different do you think Ingham's take on soil science is from the USDA's ?
Quite different.  I just Googled "USDA soil" and got nothing remotely close to the stuff Elaine Ingham is talking about.
Oh really?
What is the first hit you get when you search "USDA soil primer" ?



Or go with "USDA soil", open the first hit and select "soil health" from the menu on their home page. Read the first two paragraphs.
Well well well ... you win a prize for spotting that not-very-obvious link.  Good job.  You had a sharper eye than me this morning.

Now keep going ... what does your typical row crop farmer in the Midwest USA do to support and encourage these soil organisms?

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39430
Dave, what do you think.clearing half the rainforest does to these soil organisms?
Why do I bother?

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39431
Now keep going ... what does your typical row crop farmer in the Midwest USA do to support and encourage these soil organisms?
Don't know. Don't care.
The point is the USDA "party line" was written by Elaine Ingham - among others.
She's not some voice crying in the wilderness, challenging the official state religion.
She's one of the high priestesses of the official state religion.

Of course, that was 1999, and it was the Clinton USDA.
Who knows what the Trump USDA line is?
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39432
Dave, what do you think.clearing half the rainforest does to these soil organisms?
That's a good question.  A lot depends on how the trees are removed. If we just cut some trees down for the purpose of coppicing and sunlight penetration then not much will change other than more vigorous growth of the Sunlight Loving species on the forest floor. You will still have the deep roots of the cut trees in place along with the Abundant microorganism communities surrounding them. So that would not change. This would be my preference over completely removing trees, roots and all.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39433
The only reasons I could think of for removing trees completely, roots and all would be to facilitate broadacre plowing which of course I will never do. And the only other reason might be to facilitate a mechanized movable pen system such as what I have here in Missouri. But I don't think that type of system would be necessary with a village of 200 indigenous people available to manage the animals.  I think what I would use in Guyana would be hurting dogs and humans Shepherds, myself of course included in the rotation. Not looking to make slaves out of indigenous peoples here as my European forefathers did.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39434
Dave, what do you think.clearing half the rainforest does to these soil organisms?
That's a good question.  A lot depends on how the trees are removed. If we just cut some trees down for the purpose of coppicing and sunlight penetration then not much will change other than more vigorous growth of the Sunlight Loving species on the forest floor. You will still have the deep roots of the cut trees in place along with the Abundant microorganism communities surrounding them. So that would not change. This would be my preference over completely removing trees, roots and all.

What on earth makes you think that plant species adapted to surviving on the shaded rainforest floor would suddenly become 'sunlight-loving'?

More of your botanical ignorance. Rainforest canopy trees do not grow 'deep roots'. They have evolved to take advantage of the uppermost layers of composting detritus, and have widely spread shallow root systems, buttress root systems, and stilt roots.
https://rainforests.mongabay.com/0502a.htm

photos

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=amaon+rainforest+tree+roots&FORM=HDRSC2

  • Zombies!
  • These violent delights have violent ends.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39435
Tel me more about these sunlight loving species that will thrive!  What will they be?

What will happen to their minerals when they are eaten by animals who will make them part of their bodies?
I really should call your department head and tell him or her how badly you are behaving while posing as a credentialed professional scientist.

  • Zombies!
  • These violent delights have violent ends.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39436
Dave, what do you think.clearing half the rainforest does to these soil organisms?
That's a good question.  A lot depends on how the trees are removed. If we just cut some trees down for the purpose of coppicing and sunlight penetration then not much will change other than more vigorous growth of the Sunlight Loving species on the forest floor. You will still have the deep roots of the cut trees in place along with the Abundant microorganism communities surrounding them. So that would not change. This would be my preference over completely removing trees, roots and all.

What on earth makes you think that plant species adapted to surviving on the shaded rainforest floor would suddenly become 'sunlight-loving'?

More of your botanical ignorance. Rainforest canopy trees do not grow 'deep roots'. They have evolved to take advantage of the uppermost layers of composting detritus, and have widely spread shallow root systems, buttress root systems, and stilt roots.
https://rainforests.mongabay.com/0502a.htm

photos

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=amaon+rainforest+tree+roots&FORM=HDRSC2
Hence soil erosion once cut, Dave.  We are trying to tell you stuff, but you keep yelling wrong stuff and not listening.
  • Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 07:55:43 AM by Zombies!
I really should call your department head and tell him or her how badly you are behaving while posing as a credentialed professional scientist.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39437
Dave, what do you think.clearing half the rainforest does to these soil organisms?
That's a good question.  A lot depends on how the trees are removed. If we just cut some trees down for the purpose of coppicing and sunlight penetration then not much will change other than more vigorous growth of the Sunlight Loving species on the forest floor. You will still have the deep roots of the cut trees in place along with the Abundant microorganism communities surrounding them. So that would not change. This would be my preference over completely removing trees, roots and all.

What on earth makes you think that plant species adapted to surviving on the shaded rainforest floor would suddenly become 'sunlight-loving'?

More of your botanical ignorance.
it's you that's ignorant mainly because you're full of yourself and so you don't read what I write carefully. Go back and reread what I wrote and see if you see anything about me saying that shade-loving species will suddenly become Sunlight Loving. How ridiculous! But what will happen is that the Sunlight Loving species that are already there but I currently being out competed by shade loving species will begin out-competing the shade loving species.   Which of course is fine from a save the Earth perspective.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39438
Dave, what do you think.clearing half the rainforest does to these soil organisms?
That's a good question.  A lot depends on how the trees are removed. If we just cut some trees down for the purpose of coppicing and sunlight penetration then not much will change other than more vigorous growth of the Sunlight Loving species on the forest floor. You will still have the deep roots of the cut trees in place along with the Abundant microorganism communities surrounding them. So that would not change. This would be my preference over completely removing trees, roots and all.

What on earth makes you think that plant species adapted to surviving on the shaded rainforest floor would suddenly become 'sunlight-loving'?

More of your botanical ignorance. Rainforest canopy trees do not grow 'deep roots'. They have evolved to take advantage of the uppermost layers of composting detritus, and have widely spread shallow root systems, buttress root systems, and stilt roots.
https://rainforests.mongabay.com/0502a.htm

photos

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=amaon+rainforest+tree+roots&FORM=HDRSC2
Hence soil erosion once cut, Dave.  We are trying to tell you stuff, but you keep yelling wrong stuff and not listening.
god you're an idiot. I'm convinced, though, that if you actually engaged your own brain and began thinking independently instead of mindlessly lapping up what Borealis wrote based on her poor reading skills that you would actually be a useful human being in the cause of saving the Earth. Because you do actually do some things that benefit the planet. So there's hope for you!

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39439
Also the shallow roots in rainforest trees is not a consideration in this discussion because what we are talking about is shade species versus non shade species. We're not even talking about depth of roots. There are plenty of shallow-rooted species that love sunlight and what's more plants adapt to their environment very quickly which you would know if you knew anything about evolution. What you don't because you've bought Darwin mumbo-jumbo Hook Line & Sinker.

  • Zombies!
  • These violent delights have violent ends.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39440
Dave, what do you think.clearing half the rainforest does to these soil organisms?
That's a good question.  A lot depends on how the trees are removed. If we just cut some trees down for the purpose of coppicing and sunlight penetration then not much will change other than more vigorous growth of the Sunlight Loving species on the forest floor. You will still have the deep roots of the cut trees in place along with the Abundant microorganism communities surrounding them. So that would not change. This would be my preference over completely removing trees, roots and all.

What on earth makes you think that plant species adapted to surviving on the shaded rainforest floor would suddenly become 'sunlight-loving'?

More of your botanical ignorance.
it's you that's ignorant mainly because you're full of yourself and so you don't read what I write carefully. Go back and reread what I wrote and see if you see anything about me saying that shade-loving species will suddenly become Sunlight Loving. How ridiculous! But what will happen is that the Sunlight Loving species that are already there but I currently being out competed by shade loving species will begin out-competing the shade loving species.  Which of course is fine from a save the Earth perspective.
First, I love machine translation from one language to another, then back into English, its fun.
Second, what remains isn't rain forest.  What will the animals do now that you have wrecked their home?  The bugs?  The microorganisms you apparently just found out about? You took a beautiful, balanced system, and fucked it so you could raise animals for two years?
I really should call your department head and tell him or her how badly you are behaving while posing as a credentialed professional scientist.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39441
In short your brains are addled from years and years of mass propaganda by our broken educational system but there's hope for you because you are a full, card-carrying member of the human species (not a less evolved member like they thought Ota Benga was) so your brain can be fixed!

  • Zombies!
  • These violent delights have violent ends.
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39442
Dave, what do you think.clearing half the rainforest does to these soil organisms?
That's a good question.  A lot depends on how the trees are removed. If we just cut some trees down for the purpose of coppicing and sunlight penetration then not much will change other than more vigorous growth of the Sunlight Loving species on the forest floor. You will still have the deep roots of the cut trees in place along with the Abundant microorganism communities surrounding them. So that would not change. This would be my preference over completely removing trees, roots and all.

What on earth makes you think that plant species adapted to surviving on the shaded rainforest floor would suddenly become 'sunlight-loving'?

More of your botanical ignorance. Rainforest canopy trees do not grow 'deep roots'. They have evolved to take advantage of the uppermost layers of composting detritus, and have widely spread shallow root systems, buttress root systems, and stilt roots.
https://rainforests.mongabay.com/0502a.htm

photos

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=amaon+rainforest+tree+roots&FORM=HDRSC2
Hence soil erosion once cut, Dave.  We are trying to tell you stuff, but you keep yelling wrong stuff and not listening.
god you're an idiot. I'm convinced, though, that if you actually engaged your own brain and began thinking independently instead of mindlessly lapping up what Borealis wrote based on her poor reading skills that you would actually be a useful human being in the cause of saving the Earth. Because you do actually do some things that benefit the planet. So there's hope for you!
How about
1. Stop talking shit about Borealis, I respect her.  She's brilliant.
2. Treat ME with respect and address the lie you told about me,
3. Learn to read.
I really should call your department head and tell him or her how badly you are behaving while posing as a credentialed professional scientist.

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39443
Dave, what do you think.clearing half the rainforest does to these soil organisms?
That's a good question.  A lot depends on how the trees are removed. If we just cut some trees down for the purpose of coppicing and sunlight penetration then not much will change other than more vigorous growth of the Sunlight Loving species on the forest floor. You will still have the deep roots of the cut trees in place along with the Abundant microorganism communities surrounding them. So that would not change. This would be my preference over completely removing trees, roots and all.

What on earth makes you think that plant species adapted to surviving on the shaded rainforest floor would suddenly become 'sunlight-loving'?

More of your botanical ignorance.
it's you that's ignorant mainly because you're full of yourself and so you don't read what I write carefully. Go back and reread what I wrote and see if you see anything about me saying that shade-loving species will suddenly become Sunlight Loving. How ridiculous! But what will happen is that the Sunlight Loving species that are already there but I currently being out competed by shade loving species will begin out-competing the shade loving species.  Which of course is fine from a save the Earth perspective.
First, I love machine translation from one language to another, then back into English, its fun.
Second, what remains isn't rain forest.  What will the animals do now that you have wrecked their home?  The bugs?  The microorganisms you apparently just found out about? You took a beautiful, balanced system, and fucked it so you could raise animals for two years?
Nope.

You think so because your brain is addled by years and years of propaganda from our broken educational system.

What I'm doing is simply changing the ecosystem somewhat. No animals will go extinct. In fact the ones that are there will be better off because there will be more food for everyone - animals and humans.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39444
plants adapt to their environment very quickly which you would know if you knew anything about evolution.
[citation needed]   
Quote
What you don't because you've bought Darwin mumbo-jumbo Hook Line & Sinker.
You are such an obvious blowhard, Hawkins.
You don't know the first thing about evolution.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • JonF
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39445
Dave, what do you think.clearing half the rainforest does to these soil organisms?
That's a good question.  A lot depends on how the trees are removed. If we just cut some trees down for the purpose of coppicing and sunlight penetration then not much will change other than more vigorous growth of the Sunlight Loving species on the forest floor. You will still have the deep roots of the cut trees in place along with the Abundant microorganism communities surrounding them. So that would not change. This would be my preference over completely removing trees, roots and all.

What on earth makes you think that plant species adapted to surviving on the shaded rainforest floor would suddenly become 'sunlight-loving'?

More of your botanical ignorance.
it's you that's ignorant mainly because you're full of yourself and so you don't read what I write carefully. Go back and reread what I wrote and see if you see anything about me saying that shade-loving species will suddenly become Sunlight Loving. How ridiculous! But what will happen is that the Sunlight Loving species that are already there but I currently being out competed by shade loving species will begin out-competing the shade loving species.   Which of course is fine from a save the Earth perspective.
Assuming there are sunlight loving species there.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39446
Dave, what do you think.clearing half the rainforest does to these soil organisms?
That's a good question.  A lot depends on how the trees are removed. If we just cut some trees down for the purpose of coppicing and sunlight penetration then not much will change other than more vigorous growth of the Sunlight Loving species on the forest floor. You will still have the deep roots of the cut trees in place along with the Abundant microorganism communities surrounding them. So that would not change. This would be my preference over completely removing trees, roots and all.

What on earth makes you think that plant species adapted to surviving on the shaded rainforest floor would suddenly become 'sunlight-loving'?

More of your botanical ignorance. Rainforest canopy trees do not grow 'deep roots'. They have evolved to take advantage of the uppermost layers of composting detritus, and have widely spread shallow root systems, buttress root systems, and stilt roots.
https://rainforests.mongabay.com/0502a.htm

photos

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=amaon+rainforest+tree+roots&FORM=HDRSC2
Hence soil erosion once cut, Dave.  We are trying to tell you stuff, but you keep yelling wrong stuff and not listening.
god you're an idiot. I'm convinced, though, that if you actually engaged your own brain and began thinking independently instead of mindlessly lapping up what Borealis wrote based on her poor reading skills that you would actually be a useful human being in the cause of saving the Earth. Because you do actually do some things that benefit the planet. So there's hope for you!
How about
1. Stop talking shit about Borealis, I respect her.  She's brilliant.
2. Treat ME with respect and address the lie you told about me,
3. Learn to read.
Go fuck yourself until you can learn how to respect me. Then we'll talk. And if this offends you and you don't want to participate in this thread anymore, then fine. There's plenty of other science threads to participate in.

  • JonF
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39447
Also the shallow roots in rainforest trees is not a consideration in this discussion because what we are talking about is shade species versus non shade species. We're not even talking about depth of roots. There are plenty of shallow-rooted species that love sunlight and what's more plants adapt to their environment very quickly which you would know if you knew anything about evolution. What you don't because you've bought Darwin mumbo-jumbo Hook Line & Sinker.
We're talking about leaching.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39448
plants adapt to their environment very quickly which you would know if you knew anything about evolution.
[citation needed]   
Quote
What you don't because you've bought Darwin mumbo-jumbo Hook Line & Sinker.
You are such an obvious blowhard, Hawkins.
You don't know the first thing about evolution.
Incorrect. I actually know more about it than you do because I'm not operating under a failed paradigm.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Economics of "Saving Agriculture" (Thereby Saving the World)
Reply #39449
What I'm doing is simply changing the ecosystem somewhat.
What you are doing is Walter Mitty fantasizing.
It's not changing the ecosystem or anything else.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins