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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #225
i am somewhat vexed by my own reaction to this kind of thing. at root i hate political cult of personality shit generally, so i have no problems saying sanders is being a turd when he's being a turd. but i can't stand centrist democrats going apeshit on the dude. i think it's because these people will shift between sometimes raging about sanders as having influence in the party even though he's not a member of the party and other times whining about how sanders' supporters aren't excited to vote for democrats. they will rage about sanders deprioritizing non-class issues (which is totally fair to the extent that he does) to get cozy with republican voters, but will use republican-style red-baiting against him to get cozy with moderate republicans. come the fuck on.

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #226
I dunno, this race didn't look remotely contestable until very, very recently, I and don't see how some DCCC money would have swung the election by 6 points. What I'm taking away is that there was a 22-point swing in a blood-red district with zero national intervention from the Democrats. They're putting money and resources into GA-06 and I think the Montana race, both of which have better odds.
You either mean it when you say "fifty state strategy" or you don't.  Leaving a Bernie style candidate on their own sends a message.
didn't the dnc just fire its whole staff, to satisfy the sandernistas?  not saying it wasn't a necessary move, but I assume it disrupted everything they were doing, and the new people will need some time to get their act together.

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #227
i am somewhat vexed by my own reaction to this kind of thing. at root i hate political cult of personality shit generally, so i have no problems saying sanders is being a turd when he's being a turd. but i can't stand centrist democrats going apeshit on the dude. i think it's because these people will shift between sometimes raging about sanders as having influence in the party even though he's not a member of the party and other times whining about how sanders' supporters aren't excited to vote for democrats. they will rage about sanders deprioritizing non-class issues (which is totally fair to the extent that he does) to get cozy with republican voters, but will use republican-style red-baiting against him to get cozy with moderate republicans. come the fuck on.

This is a case where I think ~both sides~ legitimately suck and it's why I totally ignored the dem primaries aside from casting my vote for Sanders. I'm deeply annoyed by both hillary/establishment enthusiasts and bernie supporters who are both running their own form of purity politics, but unfortunately they both somehow need to be appeased so one group or the other doesn't sit home and pout leading to even more shitty conservatives taking power.

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #228
I dunno, this race didn't look remotely contestable until very, very recently, I and don't see how some DCCC money would have swung the election by 6 points. What I'm taking away is that there was a 22-point swing in a blood-red district with zero national intervention from the Democrats. They're putting money and resources into GA-06 and I think the Montana race, both of which have better odds.
You either mean it when you say "fifty state strategy" or you don't.  Leaving a Bernie style candidate on their own sends a message.
didn't the dnc just fire its whole staff, to satisfy the sandernistas?  not saying it wasn't a necessary move, but I assume it disrupted everything they were doing, and the new people will need some time to get their act together.
They made everyone resign and reapply. I don't think they're going for 100% staff turnover.

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #229
i am somewhat vexed by my own reaction to this kind of thing. at root i hate political cult of personality shit generally, so i have no problems saying sanders is being a turd when he's being a turd. but i can't stand centrist democrats going apeshit on the dude. i think it's because these people will shift between sometimes raging about sanders as having influence in the party even though he's not a member of the party and other times whining about how sanders' supporters aren't excited to vote for democrats. they will rage about sanders deprioritizing non-class issues (which is totally fair to the extent that he does) to get cozy with republican voters, but will use republican-style red-baiting against him to get cozy with moderate republicans. come the fuck on.

This is a case where I think ~both sides~ legitimately suck and it's why I totally ignored the dem primaries aside from casting my vote for Sanders. I'm deeply annoyed by both hillary/establishment enthusiasts and bernie supporters who are both running their own form of purity politics, but unfortunately they both somehow need to be appeased so one group or the other doesn't sit home and pout leading to even more shitty conservatives taking power.
first yes fuck this entire situation for validating ~both sides~ thinking once.

second on that note idk if it's really fair to claim that bernouts are the only ones with purity politics here.

the political organization i work with is pretty heavily sanders-leaning and i wonder when it will become a problem for me in practice. but then there's really nowhere else to go that isn't in some fucking camp or another. i had to stop following an anti-trump group when they decided it was more important to be a platform for party infighting. they are democrats against single payer healthcare now and talk about "government takeovers" and shit to try and woo moderate republicans and it's like man, i'm not even a purist about single payer but fuck that shit.

  • el jefe
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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #230
i am somewhat vexed by my own reaction to this kind of thing. at root i hate political cult of personality shit generally, so i have no problems saying sanders is being a turd when he's being a turd. but i can't stand centrist democrats going apeshit on the dude. i think it's because these people will shift between sometimes raging about sanders as having influence in the party even though he's not a member of the party and other times whining about how sanders' supporters aren't excited to vote for democrats. they will rage about sanders deprioritizing non-class issues (which is totally fair to the extent that he does) to get cozy with republican voters, but will use republican-style red-baiting against him to get cozy with moderate republicans. come the fuck on.

This is a case where I think ~both sides~ legitimately suck and it's why I totally ignored the dem primaries aside from casting my vote for Sanders. I'm deeply annoyed by both hillary/establishment enthusiasts and bernie supporters who are both running their own form of purity politics, but unfortunately they both somehow need to be appeased so one group or the other doesn't sit home and pout leading to even more shitty conservatives taking power.
what the party needs is for former obama people to cohere as a well-defined faction, and play a big role in the dnc and the party more generally. plouffe, messina, axelrod, rhodes, etc.

they command some respect among both sanders people and clinton/establishment types.  also, they know how to win elections.  also also, like their former boss, they are smart, reasonable people who strike a good balance between principles and practicality.

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #231
i am somewhat vexed by my own reaction to this kind of thing. at root i hate political cult of personality shit generally, so i have no problems saying sanders is being a turd when he's being a turd. but i can't stand centrist democrats going apeshit on the dude. i think it's because these people will shift between sometimes raging about sanders as having influence in the party even though he's not a member of the party and other times whining about how sanders' supporters aren't excited to vote for democrats. they will rage about sanders deprioritizing non-class issues (which is totally fair to the extent that he does) to get cozy with republican voters, but will use republican-style red-baiting against him to get cozy with moderate republicans. come the fuck on.

This is a case where I think ~both sides~ legitimately suck and it's why I totally ignored the dem primaries aside from casting my vote for Sanders. I'm deeply annoyed by both hillary/establishment enthusiasts and bernie supporters who are both running their own form of purity politics, but unfortunately they both somehow need to be appeased so one group or the other doesn't sit home and pout leading to even more shitty conservatives taking power.
first yes fuck this entire situation for validating ~both sides~ thinking once.

second on that note idk if it's really fair to claim that bernouts are the only ones with purity politics here.

the political organization i work with is pretty heavily sanders-leaning and i wonder when it will become a problem for me in practice. but then there's really nowhere else to go that isn't in some fucking camp or another. i had to stop following an anti-trump group when they decided it was more important to be a platform for party infighting. they are democrats against single payer healthcare now and talk about "government takeovers" and shit to try and woo moderate republicans and it's like man, i'm not even a purist about single payer but fuck that shit.

I said they're both running purity politics  :dunno:

I've been hesitant to contact the local political progressive group because they started as a hardcore Bernie group. I'm not sure how far into the purity politics they are though because they helped out in the local race I was involved with and that slate of candidates was pretty run-of-the-mill municipal level centrist democrats running against tea party people. It's also possible that's just an excuse for my laziness!

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #232
i am somewhat vexed by my own reaction to this kind of thing. at root i hate political cult of personality shit generally, so i have no problems saying sanders is being a turd when he's being a turd. but i can't stand centrist democrats going apeshit on the dude. i think it's because these people will shift between sometimes raging about sanders as having influence in the party even though he's not a member of the party and other times whining about how sanders' supporters aren't excited to vote for democrats. they will rage about sanders deprioritizing non-class issues (which is totally fair to the extent that he does) to get cozy with republican voters, but will use republican-style red-baiting against him to get cozy with moderate republicans. come the fuck on.

This is a case where I think ~both sides~ legitimately suck and it's why I totally ignored the dem primaries aside from casting my vote for Sanders. I'm deeply annoyed by both hillary/establishment enthusiasts and bernie supporters who are both running their own form of purity politics, but unfortunately they both somehow need to be appeased so one group or the other doesn't sit home and pout leading to even more shitty conservatives taking power.
what the party needs is for former obama people to cohere as a well-defined faction, and play a big role in the dnc and the party more generally. plouffe, messina, axelrod, rhodes, etc.

they command some respect among both sanders people and clinton/establishment types.  also, they know how to win elections.  also also, like their former boss, they are smart, reasonable people who strike a good balance between principles and practicality.

OTOH the party completely collapsed on the state and local level under Obama

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #233
I said they're both running purity politics  :dunno:

I've been hesitant to contact the local political progressive group because they started as a hardcore Bernie group. I'm not sure how far into the purity politics they are though because they helped out in the local race I was involved with and that slate of candidates was pretty run-of-the-mill municipal level centrist democrats running against tea party people. It's also possible that's just an excuse for my laziness!
oh lol whoops misread your post, pls accept my puerpoligee

i'm operating on the principle of affiliating with groups that get shit done locally. the major thing i don't want to see happen is for the main group i work with to try to run some spoiler third party candidate against a mediocre democrat.

also i am in charge of a policy working group and haven't tried to schedule our next meeting because of laziness so even if you get involved you've got to stay involved.

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #234
OTOH the party completely collapsed on the state and local level under Obama
there's a really toxic uncertainty about effectiveness. each side can credibly accuse the other of being losers. no one really knows how to win.

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #235
I said they're both running purity politics  :dunno:

I've been hesitant to contact the local political progressive group because they started as a hardcore Bernie group. I'm not sure how far into the purity politics they are though because they helped out in the local race I was involved with and that slate of candidates was pretty run-of-the-mill municipal level centrist democrats running against tea party people. It's also possible that's just an excuse for my laziness!
oh lol whoops misread your post, pls accept my puerpoligee

i'm operating on the principle of affiliating with groups that get shit done locally. the major thing i don't want to see happen is for the main group i work with to try to run some spoiler third party candidate against a mediocre democrat.

also i am in charge of a policy working group and haven't tried to schedule our next meeting because of laziness so even if you get involved you've got to stay involved.

If I see someone saying "PRIMARY JOE MANCHIN!" I know they're an idiot who can largely be ignored.

  • el jefe
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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #236
i am somewhat vexed by my own reaction to this kind of thing. at root i hate political cult of personality shit generally, so i have no problems saying sanders is being a turd when he's being a turd. but i can't stand centrist democrats going apeshit on the dude. i think it's because these people will shift between sometimes raging about sanders as having influence in the party even though he's not a member of the party and other times whining about how sanders' supporters aren't excited to vote for democrats. they will rage about sanders deprioritizing non-class issues (which is totally fair to the extent that he does) to get cozy with republican voters, but will use republican-style red-baiting against him to get cozy with moderate republicans. come the fuck on.

This is a case where I think ~both sides~ legitimately suck and it's why I totally ignored the dem primaries aside from casting my vote for Sanders. I'm deeply annoyed by both hillary/establishment enthusiasts and bernie supporters who are both running their own form of purity politics, but unfortunately they both somehow need to be appeased so one group or the other doesn't sit home and pout leading to even more shitty conservatives taking power.
what the party needs is for former obama people to cohere as a well-defined faction, and play a big role in the dnc and the party more generally. plouffe, messina, axelrod, rhodes, etc.

they command some respect among both sanders people and clinton/establishment types.  also, they know how to win elections.  also also, like their former boss, they are smart, reasonable people who strike a good balance between principles and practicality.

OTOH the party completely collapsed on the state and local level under Obama
I think that owes to several things that were either out of control of obama and his people, or which they would recognize the need to fix now:

1)  the abandonment of Howard Dean's proposal for a 50-state, 4-year campaign.  he foresaw all of this and wanted to get ahead of it.  but he was elbowed out (possibly thanks to the influence his frienemy, Rahm Emanuel, had as obama's chief of staff), and his plan was dumped in favor of narrow, short-term thinking
2) conservatives got scarily well-organized during the Obama years, from ALEC to the various tea party activist groups.
3) apparently nowadays in american politics voters feel more motivated to show up when the wrong party is in the white house.  that translates into voting even in local, state, midterm, and off-year elections.  since it is now standard for americans to see a president of the wrong party as the next hitler and freak out about it, it seems like the opposition will have a built-in advantage at scaring their people out to the polls.
4) another advantage for the opposition is that the party in power is busy trying to legislate and govern (or at least figure out how to do those things, as the gop is presently trying to do), and the opposition is free to spend all their time on politics.  the gop exploited this to great effect under obama.  the roles are reversed now.

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #237
I said they're both running purity politics  :dunno:

I've been hesitant to contact the local political progressive group because they started as a hardcore Bernie group. I'm not sure how far into the purity politics they are though because they helped out in the local race I was involved with and that slate of candidates was pretty run-of-the-mill municipal level centrist democrats running against tea party people. It's also possible that's just an excuse for my laziness!
oh lol whoops misread your post, pls accept my puerpoligee

i'm operating on the principle of affiliating with groups that get shit done locally. the major thing i don't want to see happen is for the main group i work with to try to run some spoiler third party candidate against a mediocre democrat.

also i am in charge of a policy working group and haven't tried to schedule our next meeting because of laziness so even if you get involved you've got to stay involved.

If I see someone saying "PRIMARY JOE MANCHIN!" I know they're an idiot who can largely be ignored.
right

and the word "largely" was largely unnecessary

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #238
even my hardest-core sanders people friends are not happy about this: http://www.npr.org/2017/04/20/524962482/sanders-defends-campaigning-for-anti-abortion-rights-democrat

otoh part of me wants to ask how much any of this really matters, this is a race for mayor of omaha. it's still an incredibly bad look even if it makes no practical difference.

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #239
 :clap:  :clap:  :clap:



eta: too bad he didn't do this before Tuesday though!

eta2:
even my hardest-core sanders people friends are not happy about this: http://www.npr.org/2017/04/20/524962482/sanders-defends-campaigning-for-anti-abortion-rights-democrat

otoh part of me wants to ask how much any of this really matters, this is a race for mayor of omaha. it's still an incredibly bad look even if it makes no practical difference.


it's what makes the purity test look pretty damn hollow imo, or at least highlights how it's focused exclusively on (some) economic issues and doesn't really give a shit about anything else.
  • Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 10:57:44 AM by brugroffil

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #240
i am somewhat vexed by my own reaction to this kind of thing. at root i hate political cult of personality shit generally, so i have no problems saying sanders is being a turd when he's being a turd. but i can't stand centrist democrats going apeshit on the dude. i think it's because these people will shift between sometimes raging about sanders as having influence in the party even though he's not a member of the party and other times whining about how sanders' supporters aren't excited to vote for democrats. they will rage about sanders deprioritizing non-class issues (which is totally fair to the extent that he does) to get cozy with republican voters, but will use republican-style red-baiting against him to get cozy with moderate republicans. come the fuck on.

well, it's why the left ("left") in this country loses so much on issues they should not.  I am still going to vote for the candidate that most closely aligns with my viewpoints and has a chance of winning, but I have not problem acknowledging that Bernie does annoying shit and "democrats" also do annoying shit, and I am not going to take sides based on ideology.  that is partly why we are in this dumb mess. Bernie's "the democrats lost the election because of democrats" is oversimplified base catering.

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #241
I think it would be useful to look at Latin American right-wing dictatorships and left-wing opposition groups if you want to see where we're going at a country.

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #242
your only saying that because you think mexico's going to invade and take over

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #243
Mexico WILL pay for a wall...that they build on the Mississippi after claiming the Western half of the United States

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #244
Just remembered a better place to post this.
  • Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 09:52:46 PM by uncool

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #245
even my hardest-core sanders people friends are not happy about this: http://www.npr.org/2017/04/20/524962482/sanders-defends-campaigning-for-anti-abortion-rights-democrat

otoh part of me wants to ask how much any of this really matters, this is a race for mayor of omaha. it's still an incredibly bad look even if it makes no practical difference.

Yeah, I don't know how much it matters for a mayoral race, but generally speaking, jesus fucking christ, guys. Bernie is right that sometimes the people in your party who share a lot of your goals will disagree on some issue or another, but the fucking problem is agreeing on which issues are the big picture issues we should agree on. I think purity politics is dumb when people get mega fucking nit-picky or focus on minor differences or get too impatient and idealistic to accept compromise, but what's the point of having a party if you're willing to concede on your major policy positions and throw major constituencies under the bus?

This stupid thing makes it look like Bernie prioritizes his pet issues over other progressive issues, and what pisses me off the most is that reproductive rights is a major goddamn economic issue for women. When abortion rights are curtailed, it's the poorest women who suffer the most and whose economic situations are made even more precarious. You'd think he'd give more of a fuck about it if his main goal is an economic revolution that helps the poor and working class, but it's hard to keep people's attention when you don't have a penis, I guess. This definitely isn't the first time I've seen Economic Justice Warriors dismiss things with real economic impacts just because it (*trigger warning*) intersects with some of that gross identity politics crap like broads and minorities or whatever.


  • el jefe
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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #246
yeah, but Sanders isn't saying he agrees with this guy in general, he's saying he's the better choice for Omaha mayor.  it's Nebraska, not San Francisco.  the choice is either this guy, or the republican nominee who, I assume, is a Sam Brownback clone.  a solid progressive is not a realistic option.

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #247
It's actually pretty hilarious how you literally never read my actual posts, broseph.

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #248
I did read it.  you allowed for the general idea of what i said, but you think endorsing a guy who's against abortion rights is too much of a concession to a win a race.  well he's not conceding on abortion in general, he's just conceding that a pro-choice candidate isn't going to win in Omaha.

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Re: Rebuilding the Democrat Party
Reply #249
all else aside i can't help but smirk at people who are stridently "vote blue no matter who" suddenly deciding that a democratic candidate isn't good enough to support against a republican.

i guess the fact that it's piddling shit like mayor of omaha that makes this a good venue for hashing out what values should be core to the party but jesus.

(this is not about anyone on Tr that i know of btw)