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Topic: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD (Read 3473 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • Pingu
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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #525
What would be better for us all is to move towards living more in accordance with Nature so that none of have to do Frankensteinian things to maintain a semblance of good health.

Vapid sloganeering noted.

  • JonF
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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #526
What would be better for us all is to move towards living more in accordance with Nature so that none of have to do Frankensteinian things to maintain a semblance of good health.
Vapid sloganeering noted.
He's got a point... but he's not taking his own advice.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

  • Pingu
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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #527
What would be better for us all is to move towards living more in accordance with Nature so that none of have to do Frankensteinian things to maintain a semblance of good health.
Vapid sloganeering noted.
He's got a point... but he's not taking his own advice.

Well, he hasn't got a point.  What he wrote could mean anything.  Some of the things it could mean are true.  Lots of things it could mean are bullshit.  Some are immoral.


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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #528
How come I don't have autism? And neither do any of my children, all of whom had the MMR initial vaccination AND the booster, among myriad other vaccines during their infancy and early childhood. HMMM???
My son does have autism, and when he heard this crap on the news, back when the Wakefield thing was in the news, he got kind of upset about it.
I posted on Facebook that I had recently gotten this vaccine, and had a couple of childhood friends tell me I shouldn't put that "stuff" in my body. I guess it's better to become paralyzed with polio, struck down by smallpox, die from pneumonia, or infect pregnant women with rubella and let their children become deformed and die than to put "stuff" into my body to acquire immunity to a myriad of diseases, right??

The vaccine issue - or the herd immunity issue - is a classic case of the Tragedy of the Commons.  Successful vaccination programs mean that the risk from the disease you are vaccinating against can actually drop lower than the risk from the vaccine.  When that happens, it is in an individual's interest NOT to get the vaccine, as long as most other people do.  But if everybody acts in their own narrow self-interest, then the vaccination rate drops, and the risk from the disease starts to exceed the risk of the vaccine.

This is why vaccination becomes a moral issue as well as a health issue.  And is, presumably, why anti-vaxxers feel "pressured" to vaccinate.  They ARE being "pressured" - because if they don't vaccinate, their children ARE potentially better off than the children who are vaccinated - until their lobbying becomes sufficiently successful that outbreaks start to occur.  Then, tragically, not only are their children MORE at risk than other children, but so are children who CANNOT be vaccinated, and indeed children who WERE vaccinated are also at elevated risk.

The ideal situation of course is eradication.  But that is only possible where there isn't an animal reservoir, and there often is.
They are pressured - primarily - because Big Pharma wants to make sales.  The ideal situation is not eradication, but rather improving our bodies to be sufficiently resistant to disease.

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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #529
How come I don't have autism? And neither do any of my children, all of whom had the MMR initial vaccination AND the booster, among myriad other vaccines during their infancy and early childhood. HMMM???
My son does have autism, and when he heard this crap on the news, back when the Wakefield thing was in the news, he got kind of upset about it.
I posted on Facebook that I had recently gotten this vaccine, and had a couple of childhood friends tell me I shouldn't put that "stuff" in my body. I guess it's better to become paralyzed with polio, struck down by smallpox, die from pneumonia, or infect pregnant women with rubella and let their children become deformed and die than to put "stuff" into my body to acquire immunity to a myriad of diseases, right??

The vaccine issue - or the herd immunity issue - is a classic case of the Tragedy of the Commons.  Successful vaccination programs mean that the risk from the disease you are vaccinating against can actually drop lower than the risk from the vaccine.  When that happens, it is in an individual's interest NOT to get the vaccine, as long as most other people do.  But if everybody acts in their own narrow self-interest, then the vaccination rate drops, and the risk from the disease starts to exceed the risk of the vaccine.

This is why vaccination becomes a moral issue as well as a health issue.  And is, presumably, why anti-vaxxers feel "pressured" to vaccinate.  They ARE being "pressured" - because if they don't vaccinate, their children ARE potentially better off than the children who are vaccinated - until their lobbying becomes sufficiently successful that outbreaks start to occur.  Then, tragically, not only are their children MORE at risk than other children, but so are children who CANNOT be vaccinated, and indeed children who WERE vaccinated are also at elevated risk.

The ideal situation of course is eradication.  But that is only possible where there isn't an animal reservoir, and there often is.
They are pressured - primarily - because Big Pharma wants to make sales.

No. That is not the reason.  If anything, Big Pharma would make more money from letting people get sick. The pressure, as I said, but you didn't seem to read the post, is because a vaccine doesn't offer an obvious benefit to a healthy child.

The ideal situation is not eradication, but rather improving our bodies to be sufficiently resistant to disease.

Which we can do for specific diseases with vaccination.  That it what vaccination does.

  • VoxRat
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  • wtactualf
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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #530
They are pressured - primarily - because Big Pharma wants to make sales. 
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Where is your evidence for this sloganeering?
n/m. You wouldn't know evidence if it hit you in the face, as it often does.
Quote
The ideal situation is not eradication, but rather improving our bodies to be sufficiently resistant to disease.
But since that's not  possible, the best situation is, indeed, eradication.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #531
They are pressured - primarily - because Big Pharma wants to make sales.

No. That is not the reason.  If anything, Big Pharma would make more money from letting people get sick.
Pingu, I think it's at least you who have said this before. It's still the truth.

Also, Polio and cholera vaccines were for several years developed and manufactured by a Swedish Government agency. Way different from "Big Pharma".

  • Pingu
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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #532
There is a good analysis here:

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/the-myth-of-big-pharma-vaccine-profits-updated/

It even shows the costs of epidemics of the diseases that vaccines prevent, and shows how much more profit there is for Big Pharma in treating people in those epidemics.

It also lays out the reasons why profit margins tend to be lower for vaccines than for other pharmaceuticals.

  • RAFH
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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #533
How come I don't have autism? And neither do any of my children, all of whom had the MMR initial vaccination AND the booster, among myriad other vaccines during their infancy and early childhood. HMMM???
My son does have autism, and when he heard this crap on the news, back when the Wakefield thing was in the news, he got kind of upset about it.
I posted on Facebook that I had recently gotten this vaccine, and had a couple of childhood friends tell me I shouldn't put that "stuff" in my body. I guess it's better to become paralyzed with polio, struck down by smallpox, die from pneumonia, or infect pregnant women with rubella and let their children become deformed and die than to put "stuff" into my body to acquire immunity to a myriad of diseases, right??

The vaccine issue - or the herd immunity issue - is a classic case of the Tragedy of the Commons.  Successful vaccination programs mean that the risk from the disease you are vaccinating against can actually drop lower than the risk from the vaccine.  When that happens, it is in an individual's interest NOT to get the vaccine, as long as most other people do.  But if everybody acts in their own narrow self-interest, then the vaccination rate drops, and the risk from the disease starts to exceed the risk of the vaccine.

This is why vaccination becomes a moral issue as well as a health issue.  And is, presumably, why anti-vaxxers feel "pressured" to vaccinate.  They ARE being "pressured" - because if they don't vaccinate, their children ARE potentially better off than the children who are vaccinated - until their lobbying becomes sufficiently successful that outbreaks start to occur.  Then, tragically, not only are their children MORE at risk than other children, but so are children who CANNOT be vaccinated, and indeed children who WERE vaccinated are also at elevated risk.

The ideal situation of course is eradication.  But that is only possible where there isn't an animal reservoir, and there often is.
They are pressured - primarily - because Big Pharma wants to make sales.  The ideal situation is not eradication, but rather improving our bodies to be sufficiently resistant to disease.
Moar vapid sloganeering.
Are we there yet?

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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #534

  • Pingu
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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #535
Daaavvvee......

Here's a short & simple comic for ya:

http://www.damnlol.com/for-all-those-antivaccine-people-heres-a-little-science-93857.html

Do look at that Dave, even if you decide you still don't believe it.  At least you will be less ignorant about the vaccine case.

  • VoxRat
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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #536
Do look at that Dave, even if you decide you still don't believe it.  At least you will be less ignorant about the vaccine case.
The militantly ignorant have no interest in reducing ignorance. Least of all their own.
  • Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 11:20:54 AM by VoxRat
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #537
Do look at that Dave, even if you decide you still don't believe it.  At least you will be less ignorant about the vaccine case.
The militantly ignorant have not interest in reducing ignorance. Least of all their own.
Just look at the number of times the details of Wakefield's fraud has been explained to him...  "Truth Matters" my ass.
While you were getting your PhD in virology, I got my PhD in truth detection. :wave:  Dave Hawkins

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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #538
What will really blow Dave's mind is that even if it was subsequently shown that MMR causes autism Wakefield would still have deserved to be have his license revoked and his publication retracted.
While you were getting your PhD in virology, I got my PhD in truth detection. :wave:  Dave Hawkins

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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #539
 Bullshit.

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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #540
Bullshit.
Thank you for your substantial and well reasoned post, David.
While you were getting your PhD in virology, I got my PhD in truth detection. :wave:  Dave Hawkins

  • Faid
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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #541
There is a good analysis here:

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/the-myth-of-big-pharma-vaccine-profits-updated/

It even shows the costs of epidemics of the diseases that vaccines prevent, and shows how much more profit there is for Big Pharma in treating people in those epidemics.

It also lays out the reasons why profit margins tend to be lower for vaccines than for other pharmaceuticals.
Sometimes you have to wonder about the thought processes of all those conspiracy theorists. They'll tell you that Big Pharma press people to get vaccines to make a profit of all those people they vaccinate (and keep from getting sick).
And then (often in the same conversation), they'll tell you that Big Pharma totally has the cure for AIDS (or even cancer), but they don't reveal it, because they want to make a profit out of treating all the sick people (that they want to keep sick).


Thoughts, dave?
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Faid
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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #542
Bullshit.
Go back to your Trump cheerleading thread, dave. That's all you're good for.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #543
Daaavvvee......

Here's a short & simple comic for ya:

http://www.damnlol.com/for-all-those-antivaccine-people-heres-a-little-science-93857.html
That comic was great!  I wondered what would happen when thimerosal was removed from vaccines.   I assumed that the anti vax crowd would thin out, but the poor dumb little lambs saw the autism numbers went UP, and seamlessly pivoted. 
Are they trying to ban tuna?
You may hear people saying how fast they can make compost -- some say only a few weeks. Stay away from these people as they don't know what they're talking about. --Humanure handbook

  • VoxRat
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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #544
In better news, at least the Trump team seem to be denying the Kennedy appointment.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/10/vaccination-safety-robert-kennedy-jr-chair-commission-trump
more rumblings on this today:
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. says he expects Trump vaccine panel will move forward
Quote
Prominent vaccine skeptic Robert F. Kennedy Jr. said Wednesday that he expects the Trump administration to move forward with a vaccine safety commission and that President Trump pledged that he was "not going to back down" if the drug industry objected to the commission.

Kennedy said he had spoken with presidential aides three times since his January meeting with Trump. His understanding is that a commission is still being developed, he said.  ...

He said that if the commission moved forward, he would want members without existing prejudices on the issue.
i.e. medical scientists familiar with the facts need not apply.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • osmanthus
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Re: Anti-vax stupidity from Cleveland Clinic MD
Reply #545
But hang on, that would rule out anti-vaxxers too.
Truth is out of style