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Topic: Brexit is go for launch (Read 1729 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #50
well. that took an unexpected turn.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • osmanthus
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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #51
Ok, I take it back. Reign would defo pay to fuck Boris.
Truth is out of style

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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #52
Yup, and TBH I can see it happening. The Irish defo don't want a hard border.
They're also big fans of the European Court of Justice/Human Rights Act which El Mayo wants to get rid of. 
Why do I bother?

  • tysixtus
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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #53
The Brits will be fine, you are all worrying over nothing.

  • el jefe
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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #54
but they would have been more fine if they had stayed in the eu

  • tysixtus
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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #55
Ehhh

  • el jefe
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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #56
what are the advantages of leaving supposed to be?

  • tysixtus
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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #57
what are the advantages of leaving supposed to be?

Self determination?  Not being embroiled in a bureaucratic nightmare?  The ability to control borders and immigration?  There's a bunch of good reasons.

Of course, the good might not outweigh the bad, only one way to find out . . .

  • tysixtus
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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #58
Anything that weakens the grip of multinational corporations that want to turn all the world into a single pile of indistinguishable dependent consumers is probably a good thing.  At least, there should be some kind of counterweight.  Maybe this is it, maybe not.

  • el jefe
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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #59
how much self-determination did britain lose under the EU?  serious question.  idk.

my understanding is the increased border control argument is a red herring because brexit will probably end with a freedom of movement deal that still lets people entering from the EU come and go from the UK whenever the want.  (eta:  the UK will allow it, because they don't want to give up the right of UK citizens to travel freely in the eu)

I'm skeptical of the idea that having a larger number of smaller governments, with a more fragmented regulatory framework, ends up being a greater check on the power of multinational corporations.

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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #60
Anything that weakens the grip of multinational corporations that want to turn all the world into a single pile of indistinguishable dependent consumers is probably a good thing.  At least, there should be some kind of counterweight.  Maybe this is it, maybe not.
it's not

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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #61
"multinational corporations"

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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #62
how much self-determination did britain lose under the EU?  serious question.  idk.
Plenty. If there was something we didn't want to do then we could veto the whole thing and it wouldn't happen. If the UK leaves then there's an excellent change the EU will set up its own military force- we would have kept vetoing it.
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my understanding is the increased border control argument is a red herring because brexit will probably end with a freedom of movement deal that still lets people entering from the EU come and go from the UK whenever the want.  (eta:  the UK will allow it, because they don't want to give up the right of UK citizens to travel freely in the eu)
Its a quid-pro-quo arrangement. If you want free movement of goods (which lots of people do) then you must accept free movement of labour, and having to abide by the EU court ruling, and that applies to everyone who wants to be in the single market.

Leaving the Single Market gives us the freedom to turn ourselves into corporate whores. And its not as if Liam Fox and the rest of the pro-Hard Brexit lot won't take the first chance they can to repeal as much of the employment and environmental protections that came via the EU. If anything big Corporate (or at least a chunk of it) would be very happy for the UK to leave the EU.
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I'm skeptical of the idea that having a larger number of smaller governments, with a more fragmented regulatory framework, ends up being a greater check on the power of multinational corporations.
It doesn't, There'll be a race to the bottom to attract as many of them as possible and they'll throw away all the protections we have to do it.
Why do I bother?

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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #63
Anything that weakens the grip of multinational corporations that want to turn all the world into a single pile of indistinguishable dependent consumers is probably a good thing.  At least, there should be some kind of counterweight.  Maybe this is it, maybe not.

The EU is one of the few organisations that's in a good position to stand up to such corporations, and has done so on many occasions, eg the privacy laws protecting EU citizens, the various anti-trust cases (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_vs._Google, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp_v_Commission etc).

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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #64
what are the advantages of leaving supposed to be?

Self determination?
The EU parliament is elected using a more democratic system than the UK parliament. We have representatives there. Its not like someone at Brussels comes up with an idea and its automatically stamped into law without anyone actually looking at it. (OK Farage probably doesn't, but that's because while he's an MEP he barely ever shows up and when he does speak he just shouts at everyone and disrupts proceedings rather than actually makes a coherent argument against why XYZ is a Bad Idea. I mean the guy and his mates even voted against tightening controls over the trade in ivory, and when he was in a position to actually do something about it as a member of the fisheries board he didn't bother going to the meetings.
[/quote]  Not being embroiled in a bureaucratic nightmare?[/quote]
And the UK civil service isn't?
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  The ability to control borders and immigration? 
The EU was set up as a trading body and part of the point of it was the free movement of goods and labour.
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There's a bunch of good reasons.
Not when the people enacting it seem to think that going back to telling to colonies to buy stuff from us is the solution. I meant hey actually think that selling scotch to India is going to be how we make our money in the post-EU future.

I'm going to love the look on the average UKIPper's face when we stop letting Romanians in, but make it much easier for Indians, Pakistanis, Kenyans, etc to come over.
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Of course, the good might not outweigh the bad, only one way to find out . . .
How's that working out with Trump for you?
Why do I bother?

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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #65
Anything that weakens the grip of multinational corporations that want to turn all the world into a single pile of indistinguishable dependent consumers is probably a good thing.  At least, there should be some kind of counterweight.  Maybe this is it, maybe not.

The EU is one of the few organisations that's in a good position to stand up to such corporations, and has done so on many occasions, eg the privacy laws protecting EU citizens, the various anti-trust cases (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_vs._Google, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp_v_Commission etc).
The fact that its a freaking huge trading bloc of about 500 million people means that if a corporation wants to trade in the EU then it had better behave itself. Chick-a-fil-a or Hobby Lobby whoever wouldn't have been able to get away with what they tried to pull.
Why do I bother?

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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #66
Quote
  The ability to control borders and immigration?
The EU was set up as a trading body and part of the point of it was the free movement of goods and labour.

this is as far as i can tell the nucleus of the idea that leaving the EU is some kind of brake on the power of international corporate power. i'm just not sure why we're supposed to believe that the UK would not pursue free trade agreements just because it leaves the EU. free trade as international policy is in the anglophone DNA.


  • el jefe
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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #67
Quote
  The ability to control borders and immigration?
The EU was set up as a trading body and part of the point of it was the free movement of goods and labour.

this is as far as i can tell the nucleus of the idea that leaving the EU is some kind of brake on the power of international corporate power. i'm just not sure why we're supposed to believe that the UK would not pursue free trade agreements just because it leaves the EU. free trade as international policy is in the anglophone DNA.


also, the absence of free trade deals doesn't mean plain old trade won't still happen, complete with negative side effects.  obviously have free trade zones accelerates trade and it's effects within some area, but having a negotiated framework also gives you some control over the process.

there's an example of this kind of confusion in the US.  a lot of people blame nafta for job losses in the US.  there have indeed been a great deal of job losses due to trade.  but upwards of 80% of them are due to trade with east asian countries that we have no free trade deals with.  nafta is not the problem.

  • tysixtus
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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #68
"multinational corporations"

why did you put that in quotation marks?

  • tysixtus
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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #69
Anything that weakens the grip of multinational corporations that want to turn all the world into a single pile of indistinguishable dependent consumers is probably a good thing.  At least, there should be some kind of counterweight.  Maybe this is it, maybe not.

The EU is one of the few organisations that's in a good position to stand up to such corporations, and has done so on many occasions, eg the privacy laws protecting EU citizens, the various anti-trust cases (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_vs._Google, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp_v_Commission etc).

That's just one side of it, though.  One presumes that the whole reason big business loves labor agreements -- specifically, the free movement of materials and labor across borders -- is because it allows them to drive down wages, and keep them low, while amassing huge piles of money and yet more power.  This is not a maintainable course. 

Of course, I don't think most people voted for Brexit because of this, or that they even thought about it,

ETA: And also, there is nothing stopping an individual UK from making these same kinds of trade deals piecemeal.  But it should be harder.
  • Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 12:58:39 PM by tysixtus

  • tysixtus
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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #70
How's that working out with Trump for you?

Is this what Americans are going to have to hear from Eurotrash for the next 4 years? Ugh.

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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #71
How's that working out with Trump for you?

Is this what Americans are going to have to hear from Eurotrash for the next 4 years? Ugh.

Can't blame the rest of the world.  Our president will have more effect on them than whoever the fuck is in charge of their countries will have on us.

In 4 years, maybe we won't cast such a long shadow.

  • ksen
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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #72
How's that working out with Trump for you?

Is this what Americans are going to have to hear from Eurotrash for the next 4 years? Ugh.

Can't blame the rest of the world.  Our president will have more effect on them than whoever the fuck is in charge of their countries will have on us.

In 4 years, maybe we won't cast such a long shadow.
With the rise of Farage, Wilders and Le Pen they won't be able to point fingers too much longer.

  • tysixtus
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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #73
How's that working out with Trump for you?

Is this what Americans are going to have to hear from Eurotrash for the next 4 years? Ugh.

Can't blame the rest of the world.  Our president will have more effect on them than whoever the fuck is in charge of their countries will have on us.

In 4 years, maybe we won't cast such a long shadow.
I'm just not looking forward to the smuggo self-back-patting that is sure to come after every one of these rejoinders.

  • el jefe
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Re: Brexit is go for launch
Reply #74
I look at it as an additional cost of us electing trump