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Topic: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally? (Read 3905 times) previous topic - next topic

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Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
According to you guys, the Sahara at least - and presumably other deserts - will green up naturally given a shift in natural weather patterns.  In fact, you believe that the Sahara has undergone 200+ GSPs (lol) over the past umpteen million years.  Okey dokey. 

My question is ...

Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?

Or is this "deserts will green up naturally" just another piece of wild speculation dressed up in sciency language?

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #1

Yes, there "any deserts presently greening naturally".

I posted lots of links to Ethiopian deserts that greened naturally when grazing was stopped.

However, in general, global warming means that deserts are currently getting dryer, not wetter. You'd expect deserts to green when humidity increases not when it is reducing.
  • Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 05:35:14 AM by Pingu

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #2
Based on personal experience, house plants die if you do not water them.

But you think that that is absolute nonsense, right?

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #3
According to you guys, the Sahara at least - and presumably other deserts - will green up naturally given a shift in natural weather patterns.  In fact, you believe that the Sahara has undergone 200+ GSPs (lol) over the past umpteen million years.  Okey dokey. 

My question is ...

Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?

Or is this "deserts will green up naturally" just another piece of wild speculation dressed up in sciency language?
You are contending that
Quote
the Sahara has undergone 200+ GSPs (lol) over the past umpteen million years.
is a loll-able  "wild speculation", based on no evidence?
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • JonF
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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #4
There's some reason to believe the Sahara is greening up, both experimental and theoretical.  I can't figure out which is the appropriate paper, but...


Sahara Desert Greening Due to Climate Change?
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #5
re there any deserts presently greening naturally?

Or is this "deserts will green up naturally" just another piece of wild speculation dressed up in sciency language?
Good ol' fallacy of the excluded middle.

Ther are other possibilities.

E.g. maybe no desert is getting wetter right now.
Or maybe some deserts are stable and some are getting drier.

Or any of many other possibilities.

None of which affect the reality that the Sahara has gone through many cycles of wet-dry-wet-dry. Based on lots of evidence.

As you did in another thread at TR, you are asking for the same result as in the past from the processes that operated then and now.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #6

Yes, there "any deserts presently greening naturally".

I posted lots of links to Ethiopian deserts that greened naturally when grazing was stopped.

However, in general, global warming means that deserts are currently getting dryer, not wetter. You'd expect deserts to green when humidity increases not when it is reducing.
Let me ask it this way ... You've seen the current Google Earth world maps showing deserts all over the world.

What do you think that Google Earth map would look like 4000 years ago? I think there would be hardly any desert areas at all ... Maybe none. How about you? What's your guess? How would you go about making an educated guess?

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #7

Yes, there "any deserts presently greening naturally".

I posted lots of links to Ethiopian deserts that greened naturally when grazing was stopped.

However, in general, global warming means that deserts are currently getting dryer, not wetter. You'd expect deserts to green when humidity increases not when it is reducing.
Let me ask it this way ... You've seen the current Google Earth world maps showing deserts all over the world.

What do you think that Google Earth map would look like 4000 years ago? I think there would be hardly any desert areas at all ... Maybe none. How about you? What's your guess? How would you go about making an educated guess?
You ask a lot of questions.
But you don't answer many.
I suggest nobody answer your questions here till you answer this one from the thread you badgered off from:

Too bad the TR archives are lost.
There were countless examples there that support my analysis.
Kalksjon would be a perfect example.

But let's look at this thread.
Have you recognized any "valid objections" to your "idea" that the Sahara desert was man-made?

"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #8
I wouldn't make an "educated guess".  I would try to find out what is known about the history of the extent of desert regions.

And what does seem to be known with reasonable certainty is that from 11,000-5,000 years ago, the Saharan region was going through a humid period, and much more of it was green than is today.  For the last 5,000 years, the region has got drier, and the desert ecosystem has spread.

I don't know about other deserts, but there is probably research on them if you look, and they too are likely to have fluctuated between more and less humid periods as global climate has oscillated.

And we know it has oscillated from many sources, one of which is Antarctic ice cores.  We know that glacial periods, of which the last Ice Age was one, have recurred at regular intervals of time.

You don't know this, of course, because you refuse to learn anything that points to a conclusion you don't like.

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #9
Dave, what is the point of you asking Pingu those questions? She's told you about the multiple wet and dry periods in the Sahara, but you close your eyes on the clear evidence that she's speaking truthfully based on clear science. Science you dismiss because it requires an old earth. Any answer she offers will be meaningless to you, because in your world, pollen doesn't fall every single year, varves don't tell the truth, ice cores lie, etc.

Every single other contributor to your threads is convinced by the straightforward indisputable evidence from many sources that the earth is old, that the climate has shifted back and forth over the ages, that the Sahara has cycled through wet and dry.

Global climate is shifting again, whether you think it's caused by human activity or not, it is clearly changing. The evidence in the Arctic alone is indisputable, melting permafrost, lost sea ice, boreal flora and fauna shifting northward. Those things are happening right now, they are visibly measurable right now.


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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #10
I am not interested - in this thread - in what happened more than 4000 years ago.

My question pertains to the last 4000 years. I have given you evidence that a pastoral society existed in SE Algeria up until about 1000 BC.

So 4000 years ago, the area that is now the Sahara was probably pretty dang green. 

Why wouldn't other (present day) deserts be green back then too?

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #11
I am not interested - in this thread - in what happened more than 4000 years ago.

My question pertains to the last 4000 years. I have given you evidence that a pastoral society existed in SE Algeria up until about 1000 BC.

So 4000 years ago, the area that is now the Sahara was probably pretty dang green. 

Why wouldn't other (present day) deserts be green back then too?
What would be the point of anyone engaging with you in this if, after all the perfectly valid objections people gave you to your proposition that the Sahara desert was man-made, you don't recognize a single one?
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #12
Probably no point at all for you because you don't seem interested in the topic

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Reply #13
Probably no point at all for you because you don't seem interested in the topic
I'm interested enough in the topic to have read Marq de Villier's book on the subject.
You - apparently have never read a single book on it.
You seem to confuse "dismissing Dave Hawkins's uninformed notions on X" with "not interested in X".

But you dodged the question:

What is the point of ANYONE engaging with you in this if, after all the perfectly valid objections people gave you to your proposition that the Sahara desert was man-made, you don't recognize a single one?

  • Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 10:22:11 AM by VoxRat
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #14
As for the Sahara, what objections were raised that the (most recent) drying of the Sahara was not caused by man?

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #15
As for the Sahara, what objections were raised that the (most recent) drying of the Sahara was not caused by man?
So I was right:

Not only do you not recognize a single objection as "valid"
you don't even remember a single objection of any sort being raised.

So - again - what would be the point of engaging with someone who doesn't even register the response?
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #16

Yes, there "any deserts presently greening naturally".

I posted lots of links to Ethiopian deserts that greened naturally when grazing was stopped.

However, in general, global warming means that deserts are currently getting dryer, not wetter. You'd expect deserts to green when humidity increases not when it is reducing.
Let me ask it this way ... You've seen the current Google Earth world maps showing deserts all over the world.

What do you think that Google Earth map would look like 4000 years ago? I think there would be hardly any desert areas at all ... Maybe none. How about you? What's your guess? How would you go about making an educated guess?
I personally would read Gilgamesh and then extrapolate the entire global climate from that
Love is like a magic penny
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if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #17
Probably no point at all for you because you don't seem interested in the topic
On the contrary, a lot of us are very interested.

Much more interested than you are, in fact, as is evidenced by the fact that we are interested in the evidence for oscillating cycles of warm and cool periods on earth, which you aren't interested in at all.

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #18
I am not interested - in this thread - in what happened more than 4000 years ago.

My question pertains to the last 4000 years. I have given you evidence that a pastoral society existed in SE Algeria up until about 1000 BC.

So 4000 years ago, the area that is now the Sahara was probably pretty dang green. 

Why wouldn't other (present day) deserts be green back then too?
Exactly!
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #19
I am not interested - in this thread - in what happened more than 4000 years ago.

My question pertains to the last 4000 years. I have given you evidence that a pastoral society existed in SE Algeria up until about 1000 BC.

So 4000 years ago, the area that is now the Sahara was probably pretty dang green. 

Why wouldn't other (present day) deserts be green back then too?

They were - or rather green-er, or, if you prefer, the desert ecosystems covered a smaller area, and the surrounding grasslands covered more of them.

I found an article here, which you won't read, of course, but it summarises things quite well:

Quote
During the warm early to mid-Holocene (8 000- 5 000 yBP), the global climate that resulted from glacial retreat brought an increase in the intensity of the monsoon throughout the sub-tropical arid lands. Lake Chad became a freshwater inland lake bigger than today's Caspian Sea, in an area that has again become a complete desert. Tropical forests and dry woodlands around the equator expanded north and south, while deserts moved into the mid-latitudes. During that period, the southern Sahara and the Sahel were much wetter than today, with extensive vegetation cover, thriving animal communities, and numerous human settlements.

Sometime between 6 000 and 5 000 yBP, there was again a transition to more arid conditions. Mesic vegetation communities disappeared rapidly, lake levels declined dramatically, and highly mobile pastoralist cultures started to dominate and replace sedentary lacustrine and riparian traditions. The Liwa region of the United Arab Emirates, for example, experienced phases of sand deposition that lead to the formation of a large (up to 160 m high) mega-dune. A similar transition towards more arid conditions occurred in North America, where the Holocene brought the arrival of Mojave, Chihuahuan and Sonoran desert scrub elements from the south, such as the agaves, cacti, ocotillos (Fouquieria), and creosote bushes that characterize the area today.







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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #20

Yes, there "any deserts presently greening naturally".

I posted lots of links to Ethiopian deserts that greened naturally when grazing was stopped.

However, in general, global warming means that deserts are currently getting dryer, not wetter. You'd expect deserts to green when humidity increases not when it is reducing.
Let me ask it this way ... You've seen the current Google Earth world maps showing deserts all over the world.

What do you think that Google Earth map would look like 4000 years ago? I think there would be hardly any desert areas at all ... Maybe none. How about you? What's your guess? How would you go about making an educated guess?
Dave do you understand that if you do not water house plants they die?
Do you also understand that mountains are tall?
And that water laden air going over them lose water before going over?

That means the plants on the other side do not get water.
And what happens to plants that do not get water?

There were mountains 4000 years ago.
The winds pretty much blew in the same direction back then.
Conclusion there were deserts.

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #21
I am not interested - in this thread - in what happened more than 4000 years ago.

My question pertains to the last 4000 years. I have given you evidence that a pastoral society existed in SE Algeria up until about 1000 BC.

So 4000 years ago, the area that is now the Sahara was probably pretty dang green. 

Why wouldn't other (present day) deserts be green back then too?

Dave do you really think that that is logical thinking?

When I was a boy, I had balls.  I still do.

Why wouldn't Pingu and Borealis have balls when they were young?
Or your ex-wife?

Do you honestly not see just how stupid your reasoning is?


  • JonF
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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #22
I am not interested - in this thread - in what happened more than 4000 years ago.

My question pertains to the last 4000 years. I have given you evidence that a pastoral society existed in SE Algeria up until about 1000 BC.

So 4000 years ago, the area that is now the Sahara was probably pretty dang green.
Unwarranted conclusion. the Sahara is big enough to accommodate many ecosystems.

 And exactly how green is "pretty dang green"?

Quote
Why wouldn't other (present day) deserts be green back then too?
First establish the climate of the entire Sahara 4000 years ago.
  • Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 11:27:22 AM by JonF
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #23

So, how about 5,000 14C years, which according to you is significantly fewer calendar years?

Africa During the Last 150,000 Years

Quote
6,500-5,000 14C y.a. Conditions across northern, central and east Africa became somewhat drier than before, but were still moister than today. For example, on the basis of pollen and charcoal, Neumann et al. (1995) suggest a mixture of semi-desert and denser scrub and grassland for the western Sahara, in areas that are now extremely arid. A similar picture is obtained by Ritchie (1994) on the basis of pollen evidence, and by Lario et al. (1997) for the Blue Nile on the basis of sedimentological and zoological indicators.
Conditions across the Sahara region and the Arabian Peninsula at 6,00014C y.a. have been summarized in a 1-degree database and set of biome maps presented by Hoelzmann et al. (1998), using pollen and charcoal data. Their map suggests a picture that is in essence similar to that given in the maps below; note however that from their useage of categories for the present-actual map, their category of 'steppe' appears to correspond to 'semi-desert' in the QEN vegetation scheme, and their 'savanna' corresponds more closely to the QEN 'grasslands' and 'scrub'. Hoezelmann et al. also suggest a very extensive area of wetlands south-east of Lake Mega-Chad, rivalling the lake itself in scale; they suggest that at 6,000 14C y.a., rainfall in the catchment area was around 300-350mm higher than today in order to sustain this high water level. Other extensive wetland areas are suggested for the interior of the eastern Arabian Peninsula. The map reconstructions of Hoelzmann et al for 6,000 14C y.a. are downloadable from this link

East Africa may also have been moister than at present, though drier than it had been during earlier stages of the Holocene (Hamilton 1982, Maitima 1991).

There may also have been a temporary return of moisture conditions and lake levels to early-Holocene conditions at around 5,500 - 5,000 14C y.a. (Petit-Maire & Gua 1996), for which period the map given here may not give enough moist-climate vegetation (maps for 8,000-7,000 14C y.a. could be more representative for this phase). Throughout the period 6,500-5,000 14C y.a., the Sahara was mainly vegetated (Lezine 1989, Ritchie 1994), and rainforest extent was greater than today (Hamilton 1988, and see main QEN review for 5,000 14C y.a. timeslice).

After about 5,000 14C y.a., lake levels suggest that aridity in north Africa became more severe, culminating in an arid phase about 3,800 14C y.a., a part-way return to moist conditions 4,000-3,000 14C y.a., and a decline to aridity thereafter (Petit-Maire & Gua 1996).

-------------

Since 5,50014C y.a., the climate across Africa seems to have been relatively similar to the present. An arid phase with some forest retreat is observed for around 2,600 14C y.a. in pollen records from Cameroon and some places in central Africa (Elenga et al. 1994, van Geel et al. 1996).



So, exactly how green 4,000 calendarr years ago?
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #24
He could look it up himself. There are plenty of science articles online that include timelines, archaeological information, climate information about the Sahara's last green period. It wasn't '4000 years ago' because 'pastoralists' either. 5500 years ago, after several centuries of being partially savannah-like, the Sahara started drying up again, slowly, at which time settled agriculturalists gave way to herders and people began settling into riverine communities, depending on the annual flooding to grow their food.

The Sahel, which is now spreading a little northward, is not even the area where those cave paintings are located (Algeria), but much further south.

Dave's just twisting the narrative to suit his pseudo-Biblical timeline. He abandoned the other thread and began this one because there were too many dates and locations conflicting with his Bible stories.