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Topic: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally? (Read 4243 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • VoxRat
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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #50
He's not interested in the topic.
Perhaps true.

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He's only interested in being right.
Maybe not entirely true. Dave told us what he is interested in. He is interested in creating a legacy.

I will probably do it for the rest of my life because one question I ask myself is "What will be my legacy? When I die will I have made a contribution to the world?"  And one way to make a lasting contribution is by writing.  ...
He didn't say anything about being right. He wants a following to carry his "legacy" and he seems to have that.
Donald Trump tells us he is the least racist person you'll ever meet.
I don't always take a person's self-evaluation at face value.
Especially when he has a firmly established reputation as a raging narcissist.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #51
Keep going ... Northern Mali ... crocodiles ...

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Throughout the desert, archaeologists and palaeontologists have documented skeletons of crocodiles in areas as unlikely as Algeria, Libya and northern Mali, proving that crocodiles roamed in a greener Sahara thousands of years ago. https://blog.britishmuseum.org/category/collection/african-rock-art/
Nobody is disputing that the Sahara was greener thousands of years ago.  In fact we've pointed to evidence that it was.

Your claim was that it is "largely man-made".  That is turned out to be wrong.
You don't know that it's wrong.  You don't have enough information.  It's statements like this that firm up my idea that you are either not honest, or you're not a very good scientist.  I don't have enough information either.  I don't have enough information to know - for sure - that the Sahara was manmade.  We're talking about ancient history here and we only have clues.  But the clues we have are as follows ...

1) Long time ago there was enough vegetation (including trees) to support large mammals
2) Less time ago there was enough vegetation to support herding societies
3) We know that a common human tendency is to DEFOREST to create cropland / pastureland
4) There is evidence that forests actually help it rain more ... so removing forests may make it rain less
5) Therefore, it is likely that the Sahara was manmade
6) As a bonus, Paul Ehrlich wrote that the Sahara was largely manmade in 1970 ... doesn't make it true, but adds to the support in favor of that view

  • VoxRat
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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #52
Massive logic fail there.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • JonF
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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #53
Unwarranted conclusion. the Sahara is big enough to accommodate many ecosystems.

Indeed.

The area that Hawkins is fixated on is known to be exceptional: i.e. NOT typical of the Sahara desert on the whole.

This is among the objections that were raised in the previous thread, that Hawkins not only doesn't recognize as "valid", but apparently never even registered.
Exceptional huh?

I Googled "rock art ___________ " and put several different areas across the present day Sahara including NW Chad and SW Egypt and got results. 

You want me to keep Googling? 

Or would you like to STFU and quit pretending you know anything about this topic?
We'll gladly concede there's rock art of various dates all across the Sahara.

The subject is ecosystems.

As evinced by my use of the word "ecosystems" and not "rock art".

Duh.
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

  • JonF
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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #54
Keep going ... Northern Mali ... crocodiles ...

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Throughout the desert, archaeologists and palaeontologists have documented skeletons of crocodiles in areas as unlikely as Algeria, Libya and northern Mali, proving that crocodiles roamed in a greener Sahara thousands of years ago. https://blog.britishmuseum.org/category/collection/african-rock-art/
Nobody is disputing that the Sahara was greener thousands of years ago.  In fact we've pointed to evidence that it was.

Your claim was that it is "largely man-made".  That is turned out to be wrong.
You don't know that it's wrong.  You don't have enough information.
Yes we do.  The fact that you are ignoring that information doesn't make it go away.

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I don't have enough information to know - for sure - that the Sahara was manmade.  We're talking about ancient history here and we only have clues. But the clues we have are as follows ...

0-) Thousands of climatalogical and geological and archaelogical investigations soundly disproving your fantasy.  Ignoring them doesn't make them go away.
FIFY.

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1) Long time ago there was enough vegetation (including trees) to support large mammals


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2) Less time ago there was enough vegetation to support herding societies


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3) We know that a common human tendency is to DEFOREST to create cropland / pastureland [/quote
In some cases, yes.  In others, no.

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4) There is evidence that forests actually help it rain more ... so removing forests may make it rain less
In some cases forests increase rain slightly.  Therefore in some cases removing forests may make it rain slightly less.  Do those cases include the Sahara? If so, is any change in rain significant?

5) Therefore, it is likely that the Sahara was manmade except for the mountains of evidence that I'm ignoring that show that it wasn't.
FIFY.

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6) As a bonus, Paul Ehrlich wrote that the Sahara was largely manmade in 1970 ... doesn't make it true, but adds to the support in favor of that view
Er, no it doesn't. Just another unsupported opinion. from someone with no expertise in climatology.
  • Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 05:45:26 AM by JonF
"I would never consider my evaluation of his work to be fair minded unless I had actually read his own words." - Dave Hawkins

  • Pingu
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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #55
Keep going ... Northern Mali ... crocodiles ...

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Throughout the desert, archaeologists and palaeontologists have documented skeletons of crocodiles in areas as unlikely as Algeria, Libya and northern Mali, proving that crocodiles roamed in a greener Sahara thousands of years ago. https://blog.britishmuseum.org/category/collection/african-rock-art/
Nobody is disputing that the Sahara was greener thousands of years ago.  In fact we've pointed to evidence that it was.

Your claim was that it is "largely man-made".  That is turned out to be wrong.
You don't know that it's wrong.  You don't have enough information.


We don't know for sure that anything is wrong.  We often know with high probability though, for instance, if subsequent data are incompatible with it, as in this case.  Same with Price.

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It's statements like this that firm up my idea that you are either not honest, or you're not a very good scientist.

No, it just means that I used common English rather than Reverse Swahili Pig Latin. 


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I don't have enough information either.

And you never will because you are only willing to consider evidence that supports your a priori conclusion.
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I don't have enough information to know - for sure - that the Sahara was manmade.
No, you don't.  But you have plenty of information that indicates that it was not.  But you ignore it.

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We're talking about ancient history here and we only have clues.  But the clues we have are as follows ...

1) Long time ago there was enough vegetation (including trees) to support large mammals
2) Less time ago there was enough vegetation to support herding societies

Ancient history but not ancient times.  And yes.  All of which is consistent with the model that we are going through a part of the oscillatory climate cycle in which deserts increase.

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3) We know that a common human tendency is to DEFOREST to create cropland / pastureland
We also know that a common human tendency is to wishful thinking.

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4) There is evidence that forests actually help it rain more ... so removing forests may make it rain less

We've already been through this.  Certainly forests increase humidity and local precipitation.  The only "evidence" (hypothesis actually) that forests actually divert vast oceanic volumes of moist air is a) still hypothetical and b) clearly only applies to vast rainforests - possibly only the Amazon, because of its specific geography, and there is no evidence that the Sahara was ever a rainforest, at least in the last few millenia.


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5) Therefore, it is likely that the Sahara was manmade
No.  You are simply an idiot.

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6) As a bonus, Paul Ehrlich wrote that the Sahara was largely manmade in 1970 ... doesn't make it true, but adds to the support in favor of that view
No, it doesn't, any more than the fact that Newton thought that alchemy was true adds to the support in favor of that view.  Good people can be wrong.  Good scientists not only accept that they were wrong, they actually try to falsify their own models.

Unlike you.  It's one of the many senses in which you are not a scientist.

  • Faid
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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #56
[snip bullshit "reasoning"]Therefore, it is likely that the Sahara was manmade



Dave, this is essentially your "argument", in all its glory:

The Sahara used to be green. When it was green it had herding societies. Humans often deforest lands to make room for pasture. Deforestation may lead to drier climates. Therefore, the Sahara is "likely" man-made.

In all honesty: Do you REALLLY not see any problems with that?
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #57
[snip bullshit "reasoning"]Therefore, it is likely that the Sahara was manmade



Dave, this is essentially your "argument", in all its glory:

The Sahara used to be green. When it was green it had herding societies. Humans often deforest lands to make room for pasture. Deforestation may lead to drier climates. Therefore, the Sahara is "likely" man-made.

In all honesty: Do you REALLLY not see any problems with that?

Nope.   And I'm sorry that you don't see the logic, but I must move on. Agriculture needs saving!

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #58
 And the only way to save agriculture is to create a new agriculture that enhances ecosystems instead of destroys them.  I'm making excellent progress on that front. My goats appear to be the happiest, healthiest goats on the planet and I have cut out commercial feeds completely from their diet with no discernible change in milk production.  My female rabbits have also transitioned to an entirely forage-based diet and the male rabbit will follow shortly.   My sustainable housing projects are also going well as are my dealings with my local county.

  • Faid
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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #59
[snip bullshit "reasoning"]Therefore, it is likely that the Sahara was manmade



Dave, this is essentially your "argument", in all its glory:

The Sahara used to be green. When it was green it had herding societies. Humans often deforest lands to make room for pasture. Deforestation may lead to drier climates. Therefore, the Sahara is "likely" man-made.

In all honesty: Do you REALLLY not see any problems with that?

Nope.
Amazing.
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And I'm sorry that you don't see the logic,
There is no "logic" there (and if you used the same 'rationale' for different issues, you would see it yourself). Just unsupported speculations with zero evidence.
IOW, story-telling.

But I guess that's what your whole worldview is based on.
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but I must move on. Agriculture needs saving!
So you started a new thread just to bail from it because "agriculture needs saving"?

Whatever, dave. It's a shame that the "legacy" you dream of offering the world will be nothing more than a practical treatise on logical fallacies and empty bluster. But I guess that can also be useful for future generations...

  • Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 06:49:01 AM by Faid
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #60
My goats appear to be the happiest, healthiest goats on the planet
Dave.

Just listen to yourself.

You're losing it.





(And I'm saying "listen" because I'm pretty sure that, at this point, you're talking to yourself all the time)
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #61
"Losing it"

Lol

Funny, Faid.

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #62
True.

You never had it in the first place Dave.
Why do I bother?

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #63
No Dave, in fact you do appear to be losing it, or at least indulging in ridiculous hyperbole and plenty of fantasising. You're a single guy living in a nice bit of countryside fiddling around with hobby farming. You bought a couple healthy milking goats, which you keep in a small cage because you panicked when you found out they were better at wandering off than you were at making fences.

And on that basis you're maundering on about saving the world, fighting big ag, leaving a legacy.

Step back for a few seconds and look at your words.

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #64
 Borealis - like Lucy - offers psychiatric help for five cents.

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #65
"look at my words"

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #66
I

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #67
Have

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #68
 The happiest

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #69
 Goats

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #70
 On the planet.

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #71
 Did I stutter? Is there a point to this exercise?

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #72
"Losing it"

Lol

Funny, Faid.
Not as funny as "my goats appear to be the happiest, healthiest goats on the friggin' planet".

Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #73
Did I stutter? Is there a point to this exercise?
Other than a deep dive in the delusions of a narcissist, no.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

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Re: Are there any deserts presently greening naturally?
Reply #74
You're a single guy living in a nice bit of countryside fiddling around with hobby farming.
I think that's the problem. Loneliness is starting to get to him.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.