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Topic: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia) (Read 11114 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • VoxRat
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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #50
By the way...

 If you look at those 76 citations, again it's just a handful of groups - including, again, Carmeli himself and Hartnett - that cite it multiple times.

My point stands:  the only reason Hawkins likes Carmeli - the only reason he's even heard of Carmeli - is that his YEC puppet masters told him to.

Personally - I'm in no position to judge the merits of Carmeli's case.
All I can say is that it is not widely accepted among astrophysicists and cosmologists, and I would be foolish to assume it's correct, just because it fits with what I already choose to believe.
Personally, I have no dog in this race. It matters not at all to me whether Nature publishes an article tomorrow persuading the skeptics that Carmeli was right.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #51
Where did you find the reference?
Cool thing called Google scholar.  Have you heard of it?
yes but where did you come across the reference initially?
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #52
Where did you find the reference?
Cool thing called Google scholar.  Have you heard of it?
Have you heard of this cool thing called...
answering the question?

Because we all know you did not discover Carmeli through Google Scholar.
You found him via Hartnett, whom you read ONLY because he's YEC.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #53
The question was "where did you find the REFERENCE?

Not ...

"Where did you find CARMELI?"

So yes, I have heard of this cool thing called "answering the question."  Have you heard of this cool thing called READING ACCURATELY?

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #54
Where did you find the reference?
Cool thing called Google scholar.  Have you heard of it?
yes but where did you come across the reference initially?
I learned about Carmeli via - [gasp] - a creationist, Hartnett!  In spite of the fact that YECs can't find their way out of paper bags ... this YEC stumbled on something useful.  Blind squirrels find acorns every once in awhile.

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #55
I not only read accurately, I was able to understand the POINT of the question, which you seem to have missed.
On purpose, I'm pretty sure.

The POINT was: you would never have heard of Carmeli if you hadn't heard of him through your YEC buddies.


"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #56
I learned about Carmeli via - [gasp] - a creationist, Hartnett!  In spite of the fact that YECs can't find their way out of paper bags ... this YEC stumbled on something useful. 
How has this find proved "useful" ? 

:dunno:
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #57
Yeah and having "YEC buddies" is a really bad thing.

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #58
Regarding the differential rates of observed spatial expansion near massive objects: the expansion of spacetime requires massive scales to be measurable; in close proximity to a massive object the spatial expansion will be exceedingly small, swamped by gravitational effects. 

But far away from an isolated source of mass, there must be a place where spacetime expansion (acting like a force outward from the mass) and gravity (acting like a force pulling inward) would balance, like a Lagrangian point.

But it would be very far away indeed. I haven't seen this calc done, but it must exist. I'm more on the observational side of astrophysics, truth be told. Ha ha!

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #59
I learned about Carmeli via - [gasp] - a creationist, Hartnett!  In spite of the fact that YECs can't find their way out of paper bags ... this YEC stumbled on something useful. 
How has this find proved "useful" ? 

:dunno:
Well I think it's pretty useful to find out a better explanation for the universe that having to invoke "dark matter" don't you?

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #60
Yeah and having "YEC buddies" is a really bad thing.
Taking their word for scientific conclusions on subjects you don't know the first thing about is.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #61
I learned about Carmeli via - [gasp] - a creationist, Hartnett!  In spite of the fact that YECs can't find their way out of paper bags ... this YEC stumbled on something useful. 
How has this find proved "useful" ? 

:dunno:
Well I think it's pretty useful to find out a better explanation for the universe that having to invoke "dark matter" don't you?
No, I don't think it's particularly useful to find an explanation I don't begin to understand.
And I certainly don't think it's "useful" to declare an explanation "better" without beginning to understand it.
But that's just me.
I guess if I were only interested in cheerleading, maybe it would be useful to me.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #62
The more I think about my last post, the more I suspect a fundamental error in my understanding.  :-)

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #63
I learned about Carmeli via - [gasp] - a creationist, Hartnett!  In spite of the fact that YECs can't find their way out of paper bags ... this YEC stumbled on something useful. 
How has this find proved "useful" ? 

:dunno:
Well I think it's pretty useful to find out a better explanation for the universe that having to invoke "dark matter" don't you?
you really don't understand science
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #64
Again, here's where Carmeli himself (not just Hartnett) talks about dark matter ...
Quote
V. GALAXY DARK MATTER
The equation of motion (10) has a direct relevance to the problem of the existance of
the galaxy dark matter. As is well known, observations show that the fourth power of the
4
rotational velocity of stars in some galaxies is proportional to the luminousity of the galaxy
(Tully-Fisher law), v4 ∝ L. Since the luminousity, by turn, is proportional to the mass M
of the galaxy, L ∝ M, it follows that v4 ∝ M, independent of the radial distance of the star
from the center of the galaxy, and in violation to Newtonian gravity. Here came the idea
of galaxy dark matter or, alternatively, modification of Newton's gravity in an expanding
universe.
In this paper we have seen how a careful application of general relativity theory gives an
answer to the problem of motion of stars in galaxies in an expanding universe. If Einstein's
general relativity theory is valid, then it appears that the galaxy halo dark matter is a
property of spacetime and not some physical material. The situation resembles that existed
at the beginning of the century with respect to the problem of the advance of the perihelion
of the planet Mercury which general relativity theory showed that it was a property of
spacetime (curvature). https://cds.cern.ch/record/307661/files/9607142.pdf

You're welcome.

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #65
I learned about Carmeli via - [gasp] - a creationist, Hartnett!  In spite of the fact that YECs can't find their way out of paper bags ... this YEC stumbled on something useful. 
How has this find proved "useful" ? 

:dunno:
Well I think it's pretty useful to find out a better explanation for the universe that having to invoke "dark matter" don't you?
you really don't understand science
Yes, I do.  Science is about knowledge.  An organized body of knowledge.

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #66
Well dave...
Quote from: Dave Hawkins;2613996
... unless I hear you present it simply in your own words, then I'm fairly certain that you don't even understand what you are regurgitating. 


You're welcome.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #67
The more I think about my last post, the more I suspect a fundamental error in my understanding.  :-)
It's ok Photon ... we're used to this.

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #68
you really don't understand science
Yes, I do.
:no:  No, dave. You really do not.
But no biggie. You don't really need it for cheerleading.
Or selling shit they don't need to gullible rubes.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #69
In my own words ...

Hmm ... ok

Original
Quote
If Einstein's
general relativity theory is valid, then it appears that the galaxy halo dark matter is a
property of spacetime and not some physical material.

My own words
Quote
Dark matter is bullshit

You're welcome.

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #70
Yes, well.
Thanks for illustrating Testy's point:
You really do not understand how science works.
It really is not just competitive cheerleading.  :no:
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #71
Right, so if you want to "do science" you could start by stopping the cheerleading ... "Dave is a DKer, Dave sucks at science, blah blah blah ..."

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #72
But this is a perfect illustration that you DO suck at science.
You take some YECer's word for a scientific conclusion you don't begin to understand.
You not only consider the matter settled - you then pick up the pom-poms and declare the theory you don't like (but also don't begin to understand) "bullshit".
That's not how science works, dave.
That's how sucking at science works.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #73
This is interesting ...
Quote
Dark Energy, Dark Matter
In the early 1990s, one thing was fairly certain about the expansion of the Universe. It might have enough energy density to stop its expansion and recollapse, it might have so little energy density that it would never stop expanding, but gravity was certain to slow the expansion as time went on. Granted, the slowing had not been observed, but, theoretically, the Universe had to slow. The Universe is full of matter and the attractive force of gravity pulls all matter together. Then came 1998 and the Hubble Space Telescope (HST) observations of very distant supernovae that showed that, a long time ago, the Universe was actually expanding more slowly than it is today. So the expansion of the Universe has not been slowing due to gravity, as everyone thought, it has been accelerating. No one expected this, no one knew how to explain it. But something was causing it. http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/
"No one expected this"

Really?

Hartnett says that Carmeli not only expected it but predicted it in 1996, 2 years before it was discovered.

See p. 43 of Hartnett's book, "Starlight, Time and the New Physics"

The Carmeli reference is [11] - "Cosmological General Relativity" published in Communications in Theoretical Physics (1996)

I wonder if Hartnett is correct on this point.

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Re: Newton, Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler were RE-Discovering Ancient Knowledge (Prisca Sapientia)
Reply #74
Voxrat is like those Chatty Cathy dolls ... you pull his string and you get one of the following ...

1) "Dave sucks at science"
2) "Dave is a Dunning Kruger poster boy"
3) "Dave is a narcissist"
4) "Dave is a cheer leader"

Did I miss any?