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Messages - arpie

Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
@Grins: I read GEB years ago, and have often referred to it in the old threads. It's one of the few books I've kept over the years. In fact, my emails still have the following statement at the bottom.
Trust me. The statement below is true.
What I wrote above is absolutely false.

Thanks for reminding me about this book, Grins. Are you familiar with Godel's life story? He literally starved to death in his room at Princeton. He became certain someone was trying to poison him. So sad that one of the giants of the century would end this way.

@spork: I've explained my problem with the streamers and dust many times, not that I'd expect you to remember. Anyway, I don't need to search for it as Heinz basically presented the same issues I had, just yesterday. Sorry you still think I'm 'trolling' you here. If you had any idea of how much I truly admire you it would blow your mind. Seriously. Don't you ever disagree with those you know to be tons smarter and more informed than you? What happens when another such person agrees with you? Is it all about the majority view? Have you read GEB?? Familiar with Godel's 'uncertainty?'

I do hope you at least realize I believe BB did exceed WS during your tests. I'm a bit less certain about the wind's direction and overall speed. But after the AAPT accepted the validity of your claims, that uncertainty is about equal to that of my belief I'm the dumbest person in this discussion. :(

PS: Many thanks to BD and CORed for the thoughtful replies. I will think them over during my walk and reply later. And let me apologize for my lowering the level of thought itt.
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Claim "B" is where you appeared to be going when you said "think of all the examples of widely accepted science that was eventually proven wrong".  But I'm sure you've come across the adage that extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.  The claim that ddwfttw can't work is an extraordinary claim.

Hmm. So even minus any visuals such as I Ratant produced, you think that 'extraordinary evidence' has been presented to prove ddwfttw? Also, can we prove beyond refute that anything 'can't work?' Beyond 'reason,' and perhaps physics, but also beyond any science?

In the runs spork used as proof, he had 2 other vehicles following along. There was some talk beforehand about using smoke or balloons, which could have been done by one of the 2 following BB. It didn't happen. This is what I still find 'extraordinary.'  :raisebrow:

Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Sorry mistake. Didn't see links at bottom. Will check them all out. Did you get the race with the popcorn? What I've seen so far are some later experiments he did.
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
For those itching to reminisce into some of I.Ratant's "work", here's a (temporary) link to a 32MB zip on my server containing some photos and one classic (11 min) video.

Do note that many of his carts have no connection between the prop and the wheels. For the ones that do, he never provided readable diagrams that describe his cart configurations. It was, in fact, difficult to determine which way he had the props attached and which way they were supposed to turn (they may have been mounted backwards for some of the tests).

Hey RR. I tried that link and got nothing. I recall IR did try a lot of different configurations. So all of them were wrong? When are you going to show us your cart outrunning the smoke and/or balloons? Or did you try it, and like IR didn't get the results you expected??
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Good points, BD. Perhaps it's "turtles all the way down?"   :smug:
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
#Mike B; I spent a lot of time emailing with IR, and he didn't know anyone with a TM and had no interest in doing it despite my pleas for him to find one to do a video with his cart. He lives in a remote desert area and considered the TM tests irrelevant. I still have doubts about them myself.  :unsure:

His cart was made of foam, and I think it's possible that as a result it had even less traction than the ones spork made. Spork and JB did do 2 videos of their cart racing another geared for reversing the rotation of the prop, after Harold claimed it would go faster. It didn't, but neither did either exceed WS after going about 200 yards in a heavy wind.

Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
I continue to be befuddled by the utter certainty on both sides.
Out of curiosity:  What exactly do you think I'm "utterly certain" about?

Basically that going ddwfttw has been proven beyond doubt, and that the cart on a treadmill is part of that proof. I'm far more convinced the former is true than the latter, but I would-and have-bet money that you and spork et al are right. As the physics in play are mostly beyond me however, to be totally certain I would need to see visual proof. It still bothers me that none that I find at all convincing has been shown after all this time. :(

@Tom Booth: I suggest you do a search of RidgeRunners posts here about 2 years back. He made 2 small carts, and I doubt anyone would disagree that they were the most advanced to date. He was planning to test them on the ground and use smoke and balloons to show speed and direction. Sadly that was over 2 years ago and there's been no video.

My suspicion that the TM carts with their small props, light weight, and skinny tires could not exceed WS on the ground was given a major boost over 6 years ago at JREF. (This is where this thread had it's origin, though it appeared elsewhere as far back as '06.) There was a poster there (I Ratant) who set out to prove I and others wrong by filming his cart in a quite steady 20 mph wind. He made about 6 of these videos, on 2 different days, that he posted on YouTube. I won't go into all the details, but it became quite a story.

First IR released his cart, and then a bag of foam packing popcorn. I was astounded at how quickly the foam passed his cart and kept going for about 200 yards. It was easy to see the foam was going faster and going in the exact same direction as the cart.

Had say Humber done this I would have been more doubtful. But IR was a believer. His results were exactly the opposite of what he expected. So what was the reaction from the 'carteers?' They blamed it on all kinds of things that were wrong with his cart.

IR had some kind of run in with YT a few months later and deleted all his files. Besides the only outdoor tests ever shown of a small, remote controlled cart on the ground racing something visible and going close to WS, he also had about 20 videos of different model aircraft he had made, including many with cameras. This guy was definitely a well experienced model builder, and so I still wonder about the reaction to his cart. I can see one thing I think could be a factor, but it wasn't even mentioned in the attacks against him, so....

Glad to have someone else here who still has questions about this topic, Tom. Welcome to the jungle.

Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
For quite a while, humber was amazingly prolific. I discovered by the end of the original 'Zombie' thread that he had posted nearly 25% of all the replies. But given the rhetoric here I find it hard to grok why so many-the 75%-would bother to respond to such an 'idiot.' And of course this also applies now to HH.

I agreed with spork way back in '08 at JREF. It seemed to me it was all about leverage. I can't lift my truck but with a jack I can. What still makes me a bit uncertain is that so many with far more knowledge wrt the physics in play than I continue to respond to his 'madness,' and the fact I have never seen any visual proof of a cart going DDWFTTW. If only spork had dumped a bag of popcorn when he had exceeded WS, or RR had fulfilled his promise to show his cart doing so. That's all it would have taken.

Even a dunce like me has learned a lot following this debate over the last decade, and it doesn't surprise me Grins is the only one to point out the value of all the detours we've seen. So glad HH has revived this thread. And FX, of tides fame, accusing me of trolling was the best laugh I'd had all day. ;)

I continue to be befuddled by the utter certainty on both sides. I mean, think of all the examples of widely accepted science that was eventually proven wrong. Oh ye of too much faith.

Amazed at how many of the 'TR elite' are still here. Thought there'd be more Trump supporters given the overall gestalt. Glad to see you've maintained the security of the bubble. Interesting. I see Pence as an even bigger threat, so 3 more years of madness seems likely.
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Actually, to my surprise Harold said it would keep advancing. If memory serves, his reason was somewhat similar to that of Heinz. Conversely I assumed it might well stop advancing once the kinetic energy attained holding the wheels down had run out, and then it would go backwards.

As I'm sure you know, I can't begin to grok all the physics involved in this discussion. I applaud your patience, and again ask forgiveness from those who've been irritated by my doubts.  :unsure:
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Thanks for the reply, Grins. So glad to see you back. Your explanation is what I expected, and if IIRC Harold once claimed the cart would continue going forward even on an unending TM. I'm 95% sure you are right. But the absolute certainty expressed by you and most others here continues to amaze me. I mean, think of all the manor discoveries in science that were denied by the majority for quite a while, along with new claims hyped then later proven wrong.

I once offered I Retant $200 to send me a video of his cart going up a TM. His earlier videos of it going up against a bag of packing foam going ddw were only ones I've ever seen, and that lack of visual evidence will maintain my small doubts. This is especially true as I Ratant expected totally different results. He wasn't a denier. He was a very experienced model builder, specializing in planes and helicopters. That's why his videos still haunt my thinking. The foam clearly showed the cart was going DDW as the foam sailed by it.

I had hoped RR was going to erase them, but the steady wind season is over in Utah, so I've given up on that. I don;t have similar doubts about BB's exceeding ws, but still don't buy such a small prop with less weight and thus traction could do it.

Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind

Yes, you basically describe Galilean Relativity, and how the Cart cannot tell the difference between airmass moving vs. surface moving - only the relative velocities matter. That's the idea behind the controlled treadmill test.

What if you put the cart near the top of a 20 foot TM, (if there was one) and dropped on the belt from just an eight of an inch above it. Without the kinetic energy developed while holding the wheels on the moving belt, might not the cart go backwards all the way as I saw one do on a standard TM??
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
What a guy! Glad to see you back and still working on your bucket list, Grins.  :wave:
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Thanks for the reminder, spork. For while I've likely watched this video at least a dozen times over the last 5 years, I'd forgotten it along with so much else. Looking forward to reading Heinz's response.
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
So very glad to see you back, Heinz. Will have a lot to say anon, but I stopped reading at page 37 as it's late. Just a quick question.

Have you seen ridgerunner's latest small cart? He said over a year ago he was going to show it outrunning smoke. Seems this is the right time for steady winds where he wants to test, but I suspect we will never see it. RR??

I used to get notified if anyone posted here, but it didn't this time. Really looking forward to catching up tomorrow. Find it hilarious that as with humber, so many bright people here are trying to dismiss as a fool someone who clearly has elements of genius. Not making any judgement on the validity of either's claims, but certainly much has been adroitly presented. 
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
@RidgeRunner: Hope you're getting set for running your tests in the steady winds of September there in Utah. I'm really looking forward to seeing your TM cart outrun the packing foam, smoke, or whatever.
Science / Re: Direct Down Wind Faster Than The Wind
Been waiting nearly a month now for Grins or Spork to answer your question above, FX. Makes me wonder if you have them stumped. In our brave new, post-truth reality, I'm awed that some remain so certain they are right about the outcomes of tests never run, like the cart on a much longer belt.
The Aeolus carts have a hard time because they have to carry a 100+ lb meat sack (which has been explained to you before...)

I know it has but I still don't fully buy it. But I will if I see it done. You still in same location? If yes then fall is best time for wind, yes?? Glad to see you checked in RR, and really hope you can show me I'm wrong soon.  ETA-I forgot to mention BB was also carrying meat yet look at the difference the larger prop made.

@FX-dude, ffs just look ahead of that page to where humber starts posting daily again and see how dramatic the change was. And it kept going. Do I really need to show you the fucking numbers??
If humber was just trolling..quite possible..then I was his biggest success wrt time wasted in emails trying to get him to answer some key questions. I really had hoped he'd see it in time. But the fact he just dropped out without any apologies or further rebuttals I found quite disappointing.

But here's the problem. There is no doubt in my dissembling mind that humber, Harold, and Heinz are all far more intelligent than I am. They know more about the physics involved in this epic thread. So it long troubled me that there wasn't a total consensus on what to me had appeared as a no-brainer. A sailboat can't use leverage as BB did. I couldn't begin to lift my truck, but with a jack I can.

That humber was a master at presenting multiple arguments minutes apart, to me is obvious. And tbh it was part of my doubt. That such a bright, informed group of people that I witnessed making long rebuttals to his claims, made me wonder why they would bother.  Going back to JREF in '07 and onto RDF. When humber was banned there, the thread died. When spork started it here, after a few months of Harold getting involved it was again dying until humber returned. Then it soared to 110 pages from the thirties before he came back, in just 6 days. It ended with over 5k pages just here.

@ridgerunner -Still hoping you will do those long promised videos of your latest cart exceeding wind speed. Yours is the most advanced TM testable cart I'm aware of, and I still have some doubt if the much smaller blade and loss of traction won't make any difference. This is especially true given how long it took the many universities participating in the Aeolus runs to just achieve wind speed. The differential in prop size between those carts and BB is far less than that of any TM capable cart I'm guessing, but would love to see proof I'm wrong.
You have to admit Humber was far more interesting and intelligent than our current pres. Strange times indeed.

I certainly wouldn't admit that.  Both of them are extremely interesting in a train-wreck sense.  And both are unbelievably stupid.  Although I think humber might edge Trump out on this count.

Spork, I really think you are letting personal feelings blind your judgement here. Have you watched Trump speaking?? This was a long physics debate. Trump can't even keep simple facts straight, and has contradicted past statements countless times.

Hi to tober, Cored, and Semper. Any new discussions lately? Sad how social media has replaced message boards. :(
Great to hear it, WG. Hope you know you are in my top 5 all time favorite posters. Sad all the message boards are pretty much gone. Like this one, where 'forever' is a day long. Have to log in every time I come here even though I clicked the 'forever' option wrt logging in.

So where are you 'hangin' online these days? Any interesting discussions? I mostly read news feeds on FB now. The Trump debacle. You have to admit Humber was far more interesting and intelligent than our current pres. Strange times indeed.
Whoa! The prodigal son has returned.  :ohmy:  How's tricks, JB? What are you up to these days? Where are you?

FWIW I now realize just how dumb many of my minor reservations about the concept of ddw,, were. and apologize for feeding the trolls. I'm nowhere within the range of your intelligence, but then the same applies to Kammen and Humber so I sometimes have to rely on instinct. You'll be pleased to know I've learned the virtue of silence for those in range of dementia.

Truly hope this finds you well and working on your next reversal of aerodynamic folklore. -RCP

I'm half way to 74 ol pal. Can you top that? My guess is you're in your early fifties. Just wait. It never gets better, and you're years away from the real impact of dementia. Remember I warned ya when you get there. :colbert:
Hey man I didn't realize you were RP.
You must be getting old, FX. I mean, RP/Ar-pie? Are you on Facebook? If yes send me your name in a PM.
Thanks Mike. Most in the group as Hesse pointed ended up dying of natural causes. I've often viewed it as an 'escape button' in case things get really bad. Never understood why some hang on in appalling conditions.

Wrote a poem on my feelings many years ago, and when I posted it online decades later it was picked up by a zine. Here's a link:

Was in touch with the man who started this thread recently, the one behind Blackbird; spork. I'll always be grateful to him for beginning and ending this epic thread. Sad to see it ended, but it was definitely the most fun ride I've had in the cyberverse.

If any of the old timers here look in, do at least say hi. If only Humber would return, right FX?