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Messages - Wally

Ok look ...

I thought your argument was "great cities sprang up because tillage agriculture is less work than hunting / gathering."

Was that not your argument?

Well, that's not what I said exactly (despite your um PERENNIAL habit of putting stuff in quotes when you aren't actually quoting someone).

I said that cities (not "great cities", but yes, they included "great cities") were made possible by the domestication of both plant and animal species, including annual grains, and including animals for labour as well as food.

I also said, specifically, that the cities of Mesopotamia were made possible by forms of agriculture in which ANNUAL crops played a large role, as the evidence that BREAD and BEER (both made with annual grains) were staple foods.  Staple foods are cheap foods.  High labour costs (per calorie) make food EXPENSIVE.  Low labour costs (per calorie)  make food CHEAP.

Once you can produce abundant calories for little human labour (high HUMAN EROI), then you have free time to do the stuff that people do in cities. And you can also have people LIVING in cities, because relatively few people are needed to live and work the land.

I am NOT arguing for tillage NOW - we are so numerous now, that it is a serious environmental problem.  But there are many other high-calorie yield plant foods and also no-till techniques.  And yes, new grain types of the kind you posted are really interesting.  There are lots of interesting developments on that front.

So thanks for the link - that is quite exciting that General Foods are getting interested.  A mass market for this kind of food is important if it is going to have an impact on the way we produce food.
But you CANNOT produce abundant annual cereal grain calories with low human labor ... UNLESS ... you employ (1) oxen or (2) diesel machines. 

Well, the Mesopotamians had a number of techniques. As I pointed out, the domestication of animals was part of the plant-food production technology,  Clearly they didn't have diesel.  They did  have skills, tools, and draft animals.

And we already know the EROI for (2) ... it's horribly low ... something like 0.10 ... what I do not know would be the EROI for (1) but I suspect it's quite low also because the oxen (or draught horses) which pull the ploughs eat a lot.

But that is belied by the evidence that BREAD and BEER were staple foods.  How can they have been staple foods if production costs of barley were high?  And how can they not have been high if their EROI was low?

Dave, if your math disagrees with reality, check your math.  Especially, check the INPUTS into your math.
"How can they have been ...?"


Tyrants LOVE grain based food systems.

And the ruling class doesn't give a shit how much human labor it takes. Most people are slaves so labor is cheap.

And Christianity was created to control the masses.

See how that works?
Perhaps Dave is saying that the PERENNIAL crops contributed to the growth of Mesopotamian cities, but not the ANNUAL crops.

In which case, again, I have to ask: why was BREAD (made with annual grains, mainly barley and wheat) a STAPLE food?
No I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that ...

The argument "cities sprang up because of tillage agriculture which is less work than hunting / gathering" is wrong ... because tillage agriculture is NOT less work than hunting / gathering. It's MORE work.

My hypothesis for the rise of cities is ... The Desire for ...


Of the masses.

You're mixing up cause and effect.
The "brilliant" and "run circles" comment was in a specific context and you are misusing my words.  Saying "Hahahahahaha" when I say that my sheep will require no maintenance is an example of what I'm talking about when I talk about an arrogant know it all attitude.  I may have been the only one honest enough at this forum to actually type the words "I have a brilliant mind and I can run circles around __________ (don't remember who I was comparing myself to but I think it was the "Average American Joe Blow")" ... but you guys say it every day without actually articulating the words by your actions.  Such as this one that I just pointed out.  And while you have never said exactly what I said above, you imply the same thing by constantly saying "Dave sucks at science" etc.  Which of course is not true.  If anything, it's you guys that suck at science because your definition of "science" is so damn narrow.

And I'm really good at building pipe organs.

As long as you define a pipe organ as having 6 strings and and can sit on my lap.
Pingu ... remember this ...


We now have very large settlements and very large, sparsely populated farms is ...


 And if you are in favor of using far less of this cheap energy to produce plant-based foods  going forward, then a single farmer is not going to be able to produce much of an excess.

Case in point: Walter Haugen
That's not quite right.

But, it's what Dave want's to believe.
Dr. J. R. Crewe of the Mayo Foundation wrote the following article in 1929 ...
For fifteen years the writer has employed the certified milk treatment in various diseases and during the past ten he had a small sanitarium devoted principally to this treatment. The results obtained in various types of disease have been so uniformly excellent that one's conception of disease and its alleviation is necessarily changed. The method itself is so simple that it does not greatly interest most doctors and the main stimulus for its use is from the patients themselves.

To cure disease we should seek to improve elimination, to make better blood and more blood, to build up the body resistance. The method used tends to accomplish these things. Blood conditions rapidly improve and the general condition and resistance is built up and recovery follows.

In several instances, Osler (Principles and Practices of Medicine, by William Osler, MD eighth edition) speaks of milk as being nothing more than white blood. Milk resembles blood closely and is a useful agent for improving and making new and better blood. Blood is the chief agent of metabolism. Milk is recognized in medical literature almost exclusively as a useful food and is admitted to be a complete food.

The therapy is simple. The patients are put at rest in bed and are given at half hour intervals small quantities of milk, totalling from five to ten quarts of milk a day. Most patients are started on three or four quarts of milk a day and this is usually increased by a pint a day. Diaphoresis [copious perspiration] is stimulated by hot baths and hot packs and heat in other forms. A daily enema is given.

Trump voter.
Do you think our two nations are democratic now? They don't seem very democratic to me. To me they more resemble socialism.  And why do you think it takes democracy to produce fine art? Some of the finest art and music in the world was produced in Europe under kings.

Good god, you're as good a political science as you are at all other science.

Or should I say reality.
I've been insulted by a Trump voter.

Whatever should I do.  :ohdear:
Energy sustainability is the key.

There is no difference in the basic value of:
Converting 10 cal. of grass (undigestable by humans) to 1 cal. of meat.
Converting 10 cal of gasoline (also undigestable by humans, tastes bad too) to 1 cal. of beans.

I know the CO2 effect my differ, but not as much as one may think.
"Your major fault ..."

Says the woman who apparently knows pretty much everything about everything.

This is your other major fault.
hehe yes.  But it's a big field.  Assholes aren't my area.


(the spelling might need cleaning up)
I suppose you guys never studied different number systems in school. The only reason I did was because of machine language computer programming.  We used Base 16.

This is funny.  (Missed how this started!)
I distinctly remember it was kind of a big deal in my 5th grade arithmetic class.
We started in 3rd grade  :stuckup:
I can't remember which year we learned about bases. When you say 3rd grade, is that seven year old kids in the US?

13 for Dave.
9 for the rest of us.
Any of the creationist theories even with their problems are better than the alternative ...

<  clip misrepresentation of what actual scientists think > 

People who have never cracked an elementary textbook in a given field are not in a position to judge which theories in said field are "better" than which other theories.
Actually they are.  At least with this type of stuff where mainstream scientists embrace such lunacy.  And part of Ken Ham's genius is in recognizing this.  Ken Ham's not doing anything new, by the way.  This sort of thing has been repeated all throughout history.  William Tyndale comes to mind as an example.  Same deal.  Highly educated, arrogant clergy who couldn't believe that a plough boy would someday know the Scriptures better than they did.  But sure enough, that's exactly what happened.  Today, thanks to Ken Ham, plough boys are learning more about science than the university professors.

Lol!! I'd bet money that you Hawkins-read the Bible the same way you do everything else. It's evident in the way in which you consistently avoid responding to any mention of actual scriptures or actual accepted theology.

And your Tyndale reference makes no sense. Tyndale himself was highly educated. His translation of the Bible into English is noteworthy and the response of the established church was obviously dreadful and wrong. But his translation was one among many, especially given that numerous translations were already available in quite a few other languages - I guess from your POV only English counts.

As for your 'plough boys' knowing scripture better than 'arrogant clergy', what a stupid indefensible point. As for modern 'plough boys', if they follow Ham they are 'learning' nonsense which won't help them to understand much of anything beyond Ham's modern fairy tales. In fact, modern 'plough boys' for the most part know considerably more about science than Ham, given they employ modern 'mainstream' science to make their farms productive and profitable.

Is it just me, or does "plough boys" sound like a gay redneck dating site.
Your whole post boils down to "speculation". The quality of which is degraded by more than one faulty premise.
Damnit guys, surely I wasn't the only preteen wandering around in the woods with a Field Guide to Tracks and Scat of North American Animals. Right?

Fraid so. I spent my teens wandering around in the woods trying to avoid all the poisonous things, dropbears and magpies.
Point taken. :D

I grew up at a time and in a place where there was literally nothing to fear in the woods and fields, bar the odd plant that might make you a bit ill if you ate the wrong part of it. No poisonous reptiles, no attack birds, the only large predator was black bears, and they are singularly timid in that area and live primarily on insects and berries. Coyotes hadn't arrived yet. Wild cats were wary and seldom seen. We didn't even have ticks until decades later. There still are no skunks, porcupines are recent arrivals. At worst you might step on a wasp nest and get stung.

In 1955 the Canso Causeway opened, and thereafter many species that formerly were barred or inhibited by the 1 to 3 km wide Strait of Canso began appearing on the island, and some of them have flourished, for better or worse..
I don't suppose you know the pooping habits of bears?

I don't know about the frequency, but it's rumored to occur in the woods.
This article from Lee Papa "The Rude Pundit" describes Dave (and a lot of other folks) perfectly, and give the reason no one should ever take him seriously ever again. As the article says, hes a goat fucker.

"Oh, you have an opinion on health care? Sorry, you fucked a goat."

I know this is a political piece, but it shows the severely corrupted critical thinking skills he uses in every facet of his life.
Is that your logic?
Why do you care what Pingu's logic is?

Cause he can't be lettin the chicks get all "uppity" on him.
Constipated sloths would be an awesome name for a band.
Since it refers to dung pellets anyway, he probably pulled it out of his ass.
We don't have enough evidenced to discern whether or not ground sloths had piles.

That's easy, just check the sales of Preparation H during that time period.
If a sloth and a half makes a pellet and a half in a week and a half, then what is the air velocity of an unladen African Swallow?
I would have to read the sloth paper for myself. Sorry but I don't trust a bunch of Shaklee / Amway / Plexus salespeople.

So we agree on Trumps secretary of education?
I DO understand the basics.  What makes you think I don't?
Because you continue to try and use Brown's formula.  That formula is incorrect for the system that Brown proposes, a non-equilibrium system of 14C.

Do you understand what a mass balance equation is?  Would you think that a mass balance equation would represent the movement of 14C within the reservoirs for the situation we are discussing here?
Incorrect huh?  You, a hobby scientist, correcting Brown, a physicist.  OK.  Show me what he should have done.  Simply.

Dave, your hypocrisy here is absolutely mind-blowing.  "you, a hobby scientist, correcting Brown, a physicist."


Dave, you scarcely even register on the "hobby scientist" scale!  Yet you confidently assert that the entirety of the world's physicists, biologists, and geologists are "hilariously out to lunch" on the age of the earth!  And accuse the scientists who analysed the data from Lake Kalksjon of "cherry picking"!

Well,... they are "cherry picking" the reality based data and rejecting the mythology.
I think the butter dun slid off his waffle.
I think 'locker room talk' is just a name used to describe any situation in which groups of men are alone and will talk bout sex/women because no women are around to hear it. Donald Trump's 'you can grab them by the pussy' moment is a prime example of what is meant by 'locker room talk'.

Well, there's locker room talk, then there's a confession to sexual assault.