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Messages - Testy Calibrate

1
And no one caring
2
From my perspective,  she's engaged pretty honestly and modified her positions when she's discovered discrepancies.  That's actually more than I can say for lots of people. We arrive at our positions by assembling and synthesizing our experiences including the information we encounter along the way. When those positions don't change with further experiences it's a reasonable hypothesis that the individual that doesn't modify their position is stuck in an ideological bubble and is unlikely to be particularly useful in real world community problem solving.

Not pointing any fingers or expressing support for any position put forward here, but I'm not sure why the meme of Pandora being a bot or a horrible person is as quickly referenced as it is. Her past positions seem to be substantially modified to me.
3
So, you are saying that you totally loved wonder woman and own the dvd?
4
I don't even think there is anything wrong with wanting to live a simple, rural, old-fashioned lifestyle.  if you want to do that and it makes you happy, good for you.  but I find it enormously frustrating to watch people struggle financially because they insist on working in a dead industry in a dead town and refuse every option to get out of that dead end situation, because they are too scared to leave their comfort zone.
Or you know... their family and the friends they've known their entire life, their elderly parents who need help around the house, their church and their community, etc.

Yeah, just totally too scared.  Not even a remote possibility that there might be a wee bit more to it than your one-dimensional worldview allows for, hmm?
by "comfort zone" I'm not just talking about where you live, i also mean willingness to try other lines of work.  if your job ceases to exist, and you don't want to move, then the only reasonable option is to try a new line of work.  if you refuse to do that, and instead demand the government subsidize your old industry to maybe bring back your old job, you are being a gigantic baby.
And?
Oh. Is this the reference? I just meant, what's new? Everybody is always being a gigantic baby. That's not a news flash.
5
testy, I understand you feel especially strongly that a stable life should be possible, and we shouldn't all be expected to sacrifice ourselves on the altar of the free market.  and of course you're right about all that.  and that's why we have a social safety net, and do other things like free retraining programs to help absorb the shock.  probably we'll have to go further, with ubi and expansion of public works projects, etc.

but if there's a notion here that people are entitled to work in the particular industry they know and like, even if it requires large and sustained public intervention to prop up, I see problems with that.  a principle like that is not reasonable unless it can be applied to everyone.  and there's no way that kind of thinking can be applied to everyone.  the money to prop up every dying industry indefinitely simply does not exist.  I hope you don't think we should have been subsidizing, e.g., vhs repairmen for the last 25 years since CD's edged them out, by paying them to fix machines no one is using (which would possibly have to be bought for the sole purpose of being intentionally broken so vhs repairmen could fix them).  I hope you agree that a transition has to happen at some point.
I am not sure what this is about? Getting a job is a proxy for not starving in our society? I tend to agree with that I guess. Company towns involve the companies that support those towns. When those companies are no longer viable, it seems natural to me that you either need new companies, or the down dries up and blows away. I don't support supporting industry by externalizing the costs.
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"What is it that you do Dave, and how does it saving the world?  I understand you spend hours driving yourself around, by yourself?"

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that this is an honest question so I will answer it. I am impressed with your personal lifestyle and with your work which involves recycling metals. That's laudable.

As for what I'm doing, one way to look at it is that I'm doing two things... (1)  working an unsustainable town job to finance the unsustainable lifestyle of my ex-wife and kids, and the unsustainable parts of my own lifestyle which include things at present like buying boxed cereal which is the product of destructive tillage and annual monocropping  (2)  gradually transitioning myself away from the unsustainable parts of my own lifestyle in such a way that  these practices can be easily and inexpensively duplicated by others. 
You know, a friend of mine with a pretty amazing garden space (he lives out of town so it's like 100x200 ft.) grows a small plot of oats. He rolls them with a pair of round stones he made or bought I dunno which and stores them in 1 gallon zip lock bags. It has never occurred to me to ask what kind of yield they get, I'm guessing they plant around 100 sq ft or so, but it seems like it's kind of a lot because they give their kids oatmeal for breakfast often enough that they talk about it. They don't plant the seed underground I think because they don't weed that area, the oats just grow taller than the cover crop. Might be.worth looking into.
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Most hotdogs are crappy 80% rusk things where you barely have any meat in them anyway. Proper sausages however (and by extension proper frankfurters), couldn't be more different.
That's what I meant.
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I don't know how reasonable it is to imagine everyone raising their own cattle, but in some few decades, it might be possible for everyone to grow their own beef. Think every home having a personal cultured meat vat, fed with leftover produce. Some of that produce could come from community rooftop gardens.



Which might be a bit utopian, but great strides are being made towards perfecting cultured meat.

An additional alternative is that we develop suitable substitutes for meat as well. Some of the best 'meat' dishes I eat have no meat in them. I'll take vegetarian (soy based) hotdogs over meat hotdogs any day. Similarly tofu instead of beef in stir fry type dishes.
Veggie dogs are ok but I live ten blocks or so from fotos sausages that make some of the best dogs in the world (consistently in America's top ten winners) and let me just say they are better than veggie dogs and not overly expensive either.
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I don't even think there is anything wrong with wanting to live a simple, rural, old-fashioned lifestyle.  if you want to do that and it makes you happy, good for you.  but I find it enormously frustrating to watch people struggle financially because they insist on working in a dead industry in a dead town and refuse every option to get out of that dead end situation, because they are too scared to leave their comfort zone.
Or you know... their family and the friends they've known their entire life, their elderly parents who need help around the house, their church and their community, etc.

Yeah, just totally too scared.  Not even a remote possibility that there might be a wee bit more to it than your one-dimensional worldview allows for, hmm?
by "comfort zone" I'm not just talking about where you live, i also mean willingness to try other lines of work.  if your job ceases to exist, and you don't want to move, then the only reasonable option is to try a new line of work.  if you refuse to do that, and instead demand the government subsidize your old industry to maybe bring back your old job, you are being a gigantic baby.
And?
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https://www.visitleevalley.org.uk/en/content/cms/nature/nature.../tottenham-marshes/

Coincidentally this opened to the public a couple of weeks ago. Its a short walk from my house.

I live in London. Population 8.7m
Likewise, this is in my city, walking distance from my old apartment:
https://www.fow.org/
I live in se Portland. Within walking distance there are at least 5 giant parks that you could spend a day or more exploring. How the fuck I got so lucky is beyond me.
11
Idgaf about people living old fashioned rural lives but what I do gaf about is when those people demand their lifestyle and no one else's be subsidized.
Lol... Okay, now that I'm done giggling...

Why don't we take a look at the impact of city-based legislation within states?  ALL of WA is now paying for a high-speed rail that will serve a very small portion of WA.  The entirety of Eastern WA gets slapped with all sorts of cost-burdens, so that urban-dwellers in the very tiny footprint of Seattle can have better lives.  There are all sorts of state-assisted programs available for the poor as long as they live in cities - if they live in rural areas, well fuck-em.  They don't count, they're backwards ignorant hillbillies who don't deserve the assistance of their urban betters  ::)

For fuck's sake, do you have any idea at all exactly how much assistance and revenue goes to helping cities?  Do you have any idea how little of any kind of assistance goes to rural areas?

And you want to blather on about how it's so uppity of those nearly un-subsidized people in "fly-over" areas to demand that they should have some of the benefits of a modern society too!  How dare they! 
Lookit this dishonest shitshow. A very small portion of WA will be served by the rail? You sure about that?  Are you speaking geographically, or by population? Because most of the population of the state of WA actually lives in the general vicinity of the area where the rail's being built.
Rail in densely populated areas is almost always worth it.
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As a Jewish man, I really do not know what to make of this. Like 90% of the accused men so far are Jews. I dunno if it just happens to be that there are a lot of powerful Jewish men in the media and this is just a product of whichever men are in power will be shitbags or what, but I honestly can't help but feel there's something fucked up about this.

I suspect the first is the reality. Lots of powerful Jewish men in media, and that goes back to a few generations of probable community nepotism, where sons and sons-in-law were more likely to be aware of the industry, more likely to think they could work in it, and perhaps got a little help from relatives in the industry. This happens everywhere - the railroads used to be very good well paid jobs in this province, but you wouldn't get hired if you weren't related to or married into a family that was already established with the company. Half the local fishermen are either named 'Babcock' or are married to a 'Babcock', or their grandparent wa a 'Babcock'.

OTOH, my mother was really uncomfortable when I started dating a Jewish guy. I was appalled, since I didn't think she had those kinds of prejudices, but it turned out the boy's father had gotten my mother's cousin pregnant in 1935 and had abandoned her, so it was a 'sins of the father' prejudice, not his Jewishness. Maybe older Jewish guys have habitually been a little more careless with young gentile women, seeing as their mothers didn't want them to marry those girls. Prejudice flows in many directions and from many cultural founts.

Yes, the fact that your mom judged an entire ethnic group on the actions of one man was not at all due to bigotry, I'm sure.

Way to completely misread what I wrote. She judged one man's son on the actions of his father, not on the basis of his ethnicity or religion, dumbass. She was fine with the other Jewish guys I dated later. One of them was even American.  :awgee:

You wrote:

Quote
OTOH, my mother was really uncomfortable when I started dating a Jewish guy.

So maybe your mom was blaming the son for the father's behavior, but in context of the rest of the shit you say afterwards and the fact that you bring this up every single time there's a discussion about antisemitism, I'm not really convinced that this is all as innocuous as you make it out to be. Especially your conclusion that this one incident where a man did not marry a woman is indicative of some deeper cultural problem of Jewish men not respecting white women because we're all momma's boys.

I'm just going to let you think about what you've said here.
Teeth, sometimes a cigar is really a dick but not very often.
13
I'm starting to think Democrats are suicidal.

I'm starting to wish you were suicidal
You've always wished that.  You're a pretty remarkably uncharitable human.
The word you're looking for is entitled.
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That is so depressing I might be suicidal soon.
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Dave, you could address the C14 data and how it falsifies YEC, instead of running away like a chicken shit numpty.
You mean a topic you can pretend to know something about? Since you don't know anything about this topic? ( and it's tough pretending because I DO know something about this topic )
Dave, you are an idiot.
16

Quote
Already way ahead of you bro. I have that spreadsheet in my head but there's no point in publishing it to this crowd. And also it will change.  The way I'm building this thing is similar to the way you imagine that life evolved.

Hahaha - because life evolved in squares and rectangles.

No ... triangles.


Nevertheless, for the umpteenth time, Dave. why can't you visualise a community layout not based on rectangles or triangles? Both shapes have their uses, but they are not organic at all, especially when deciding where people live. Consider that most rural communities grow organically, often around or along a feature of terrain, such as a watercourse or shoreline, or in relation to important features within the community, such as a church or other community centre.
The triangles was a joke because of my little A-frames.

 I DO visualize very curvy subdivisions but I'm not going to go to the trouble of drawing them that way just for the purpose of studying the transport issue which is what Pingu is all hot and bothered about.
There must be a summary of Jane Jacobs online. You might have your mind blown though but if it's a risk you're willing to take,  search for "death and life of great American cities summary".
17
Tyrants NEED people to live in cities because then they are dependent upon the tyrant and upon his cronies who own / control the mega farms.
Funny thing: Throughout history, a large percentage of all the slaves of tyrants lived and worked OUTSIDE the cities.

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One way to get people to live in cities is to make them believe that cities are necessary for their survival/happiness/etc.
Another way is to make them, period. Funny how often they didn't make them though. And they were still slaves. Imagine that!

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Another way is to get them to believe that  life will be easier and better for them in the city than in the countryside. And it is ...  if we are comparing city life to many current and historical "life in the countryside" models, which in my opinion are quite broken and miserable.  No wonder people opt for city life when comparing to THOSE models!
Um, slaves didn't really have the luxury of deciding for themselves where they would live. You know that right?

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But I contend that there are much better models available for comparison than are being offered  for comparison by the tyrants.
Sure there are. But I contend your robopen is irrelevant to all that. It's just the way you're trying to shill for it to any potential gullible rubes.
I think the robopen is a reasonable solution to the problem he set out to solve which was moving his fence without building fences and making the pen on a shoestring budget.  He did use it to kill a piglet, and that is a piss poor way to learn that sort of lesson, but overall, raising animals is unpredictable and operators do make errors.
18
Well, it definitely makes life easier the fewer things that bother us.
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Science / Re: Deextinction and Rewilding
Quote
Testy Calibrate:
Go cheerleader spotted. Go hang out with teeth and talk about how, despite the genes getting loose into wild species, the genes don't get out into wild species. Or talk about how excellent it is that we are initiating an evolutionar arms race with bugs and plant diseases. Or maybe just how great it is that we can now drench a sizable fraction of our arable land with roundup. Yes, the gmo consensus is exactly what ontic described it as, ridiculously narrow value propositions with a level of problem externalization that should concern everyone but doesnt because science.

The fact that there are benefits is currently vastly outweighed by the concerns over the application and business model.
This is exactly the sort of response I would expect from a denier of anthropogenic climate change: I am dismissed as a "cheerleader", then vague assertions are supplied about a number of things that relate to GMO's without actually addressing what is wrong with GMO's, and no actual science presented.  I am disappointed.

Peez
Heh. When people say gmos are good science therefore good policy a kitten drowns in boston.
20
Pandora how do you propose to keep a company town alive when the company shutters or leaves?

At some point the town will have to be subsidized by government, reinvent itself, train and educate its people to do something else or die and everyone packs up and leaves anyway.
They should undergo some combination of those things.  Some degree of subsidy, some level of initiative to reinvent the town, training and education, and some degree of migration.  All of those are options, and all of them are reasonable.

I'm a bit more taken aback by the condescension here and the lack of sympathy shown.  Also quite flabbergasted by the casual "oh they should just always travel for work, that's a fine solution" put forth so cavalierly.

Jesus christ.  The people expressing no sympathy and suggesting that these people deserve what they're getting in some way are the exact same people who insist that the minimum wage (which only really matters in cities) should be higher because people aren't making a livable wage, and companies should be forced to make sure that anyone, no matter how completely untrained and uneducated should be able to live a decent life on minimum wages.  They're the same people who insist that the wealthy should pay ever-increasing progressive taxes, because they don't merit what they've earned, and the less fortunate should be able to benefit from the incomes of the wealthy (as long as they live in cities and vote democrat, I guess).  They're the same people who argue that UBI is a fine idea, and hold up the results from tiny rural towns in other countries over a short period of time as evidence of how wonderful it would be if everyone just all got their needs met!

I guess those sentiments don't actually hold once you get outside of some academic hypothetical and start looking at real fucking people?  I suppose that generosity of spirit only extends to people who vote the way they are supposed to, and who are willing to uproot and move to fucking cities where they can be surrounded by the lovely piss-smell that envelops all of San Francisco.  Or you know, where the denizens of the city consider it an artistic expression to stick gum on the side of a wall over the course of several years - that's a tourist attraction right there!

God I hate cities.  And for the most part I'm none too fond of city-dwellers who have convinced themselves that city life is the bestest and living on top of each other with no wilderness, no privacy, and no quiet is just the best thing in the world... and anyone who doesn't share that view just isn't worth their effort  ::)

ETA:  Maybe a bit over the top.  It may not apply to all of you.  Just an awful lot.  And it's hardly limited to this board.  It's a pretty common viewpoint that is just astonishingly condescending and arrogant.

But hey - we get to have a major thoroughfare be built as a tunnel through unstable ground at a much higher cost than the raised freeway that was the alternative.  The viaduct is ALREADY a raised freeway through downtown.  But you know - making it a tunnel will increase the property value of the already-wealthy who want a better view of the sound  ::)

For a libertarian, you sure do seem to think that the government ought to spend a lot of taxpayer money on your way of life.
Unless she moved, she lives in the city which now extends from Tacoma through Marysville
22
Recent EEROI study of wheat and rice in Pakistan

https://ideas.repec.org/a/gam/jsusta/v3y2011i12p2358-2391d15148.html

So what you are claiming is that you are managing to sustain an EROI roughly equivalent to Pakistan yet woefully deficient when compared to ancient Rome.

Well, OK, I guess.  :dunno:
What I have been doing for the past year and a half is a test system. And it has a EROI similar to Walter Haugen's production system. So fuck you.  When I add all the other animals, it should be double the Roman system.   when I grow my sheep flock to a decent size, that will leave the Roman system far behind in the dust.  is it environment or heredity that makes you such an idiot?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7AwoxiTuqs
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the word i used was deflation.
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that's pretty much perfect.
25
Well, that seems like as good an ending to a horrible situation as is possible (outside of ocular deflation to the cops plus $3m)